Potential convert who feels terribly conflicted

[chasingthewind]

I am thinking about converting to Mormonism based on a religious experience...

So a few months ago I had a really strong religious experience while reading the Book of Mormon.  I never had such an overpowering experience in my life.  I just can’t stop thinking about that experience ever since it happened.  It has haunted me every day since it occurred and I am sure it will continue to haunt me in the future. 

In addition to this religious experience, I also really like the practical side of Mormonism.  I like the fact that Mormons have a really strong sense of community and have a far more active church life in comparison to the non-Mormon churches I visited.  I've seen quite a few people complain about the fact that the Mormon Church is so demanding.  But that's one of the things I like about it.  I want a church that is going to play a large role in my life because nothing is more important to me than further developing my relationship with my Creator.    I’m a little hesitant to admit this but I also like the fact that there's much less of an emphasis on Hell in Mormonism, too.    

Now the problem I have with fully accepting Mormonism is that I just can't bring myself to accept the Mormon belief that God is a 'perfected' human being who lives on another planet near the star Kolob.  I personally believe in the classical theistic conception of God – a disembodied spirit who is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and eternal.  And unfortunately a big human being just doesn’t fit such a description.  What’s even worse about the Mormon concept of God is that I can’t even call him my “creator”.  Instead, my spirit is co-eternal with His.  So if I am a Mormon then I can’t even say God is my “creator”, he's just the “molder” of my pre-existing “intelligence”.

So my question is does a Mormon *have* to believe God is literally a human being?  What is the Mormon basis for asserting that God is a ‘perfected’ human being anyways?  I feel so conflicted right now.  The religious experience I had and the time I spent in the church feels like it is telling me to do one thing that conflicts with my deeply held beliefs about the nature of God.  I don’t know what to do other than to cry. 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2016 by idontknow

[zil]

37 minutes ago, idontknow said:

So a few months ago I had a really strong religious experience while reading the Book of Mormon.  I never had such an overpowering experience in my life.  I just can’t stop thinking about that experience ever since it happened.  It has haunted me every day since it occurred and I am sure it will continue to haunt me in the future. 

While it's impossible to say for certain without knowing the details of the experience, I'd say this sounds like the Holy Ghost bearing witness of the truthfulness of this book.

38 minutes ago, idontknow said:

I've seen quite a few people complain about the fact that the Mormon Church is so demanding.  But that's one of the things I like about it.  I want a church that is going to play a large role in my life because nothing is more important to me than further developing my relationship with my Creator.

Hooray!  We need you!

39 minutes ago, idontknow said:

I’m a little hesitant to admit this but I also like the fact that there's much less of an emphasis on Hell in Mormonism, too.    

No need to be hesitant.  It's a place, but why focus on a place none of us want any of us to end up?  We prefer to focus on the best rather than the worst!

40 minutes ago, idontknow said:

Now the problem I have with fully accepting Mormonism is that I just can't bring myself to accept the Mormon belief that God is a 'perfected' human being who lives on another planet near the star Kolob.  I personally believe in the classical theistic conception of God – a disembodied spirit who is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and eternal.  And unfortunately a big human being just doesn’t fit such a description.

Please see this talk by President Uchtdorf, particularly the section titled "There Is Room for You".  We also believe God is omnipotent, omniscient, and though I've not heard it said this way, omnibenevolent, and eternal.  "Big human being" is not a correct descriptor of what we believe.  It is woefully insufficient to describe the majesty, power, and glory of God.  I would recommend you let go of all pre-existing ideas (yours or anyone else's) and study the things the scriptures say about God and Jesus Christ (including, since you're investigating the church, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price), then study Mormon teachings about the nature of God and Jesus Christ, and ponder further, and pray for revelation and guidance all throughout your study.

48 minutes ago, idontknow said:

What’s even worse about the Mormon concept of God is that I can’t even call him my “creator”.  Instead, my spirit is co-eternal with His.  So if I am a Mormon then I can’t even say God is my “creator”, he's just the “molder” of my pre-existing “intelligence”.

God is very much your creator.  He is literally the Father of your spirit, which houses your pre-existing intelligence (the details of how that works, we have no idea).  All intelligent beings are eternal, it is true, but God is still the Father of your spirit.

51 minutes ago, idontknow said:

So my question is does a Mormon *have* to believe God is literally a human being?  What is the Mormon basis for asserting that God is a ‘perfected’ human being anyways?

This is an important and foundational belief, and could eventually hinder your progress in the faith since so many other beliefs hinge on this one.  But see the talk above by President Uchtdorf - everyone has some question or other(s) to work through eventually.  Some resources to help in your study of this topic:

https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng

There are various links from that page, one of which is this: https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-2?lang=eng&_r=1  and at the bottom of that are links to various scriptures which teach the concepts involved.

https://www.lds.org/topics/god-the-father?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/god?lang=eng&letter=g

52 minutes ago, idontknow said:

The religious experience I had and the time I spent in the church feels like it is telling me to do one thing that conflicts with my deeply held beliefs about the nature of God.

I recommend continued study, prayer, and investigation.  But keep in mind that the important thing is truth, and sometimes our preconceived ideas are close to truth, but incomplete, and in order to move forward in gaining knowledge and understanding, we have to be willing to let go of incorrect things and embrace correct ones - adjust our understaning.  I think some have a hard time with this idea because contrary teachings are so pervasive, and yet, those teachings aren't compatible with scripture (see above) which makes it plain that we are created in God's image - and Christ was in God's express image - in other words, God looks like a man (because he is an exalted man).  Also, people think too little of their own capacity - as children of God, we are capable of progress, of expansion, and eternity is a very, very long time - Mormons don't believe we'll die or even be resurrected and suddenly in an instant be like God - we believe that will take a very, very long time of learning, practice, and progression, tutored by the Master.  Along with everything else you're pondering, ponder this: Why did Christ tell us to follow his example (without caveats or limits) unless he intended us to become perfect as he became perfect - to follow his example all the way back to our Father?  Why did he say:

Quote

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

...unless he meant for us to become like our Father in heaven?

NOTE: These are questions I mean for you to study and ask yourself, not necessarily respond to here.  Also, making the case for what you currently believe will not help you to do anything except reinforce that belief.  If you wish to determine whether what Mormons believe is true, you have to explore that with an open mind, with a willingness to believe, if it turns out to be true.

These things are what Mormons believe, and we will do our best to help you understand them, but in the end, testimony and truth come by revelation from God through the Holy Ghost (emphasis mine):

Quote

 13 ¶When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

You too can receive revelation on this topic, if you're willing to accept whatever God reveals to you, regardless of how it fits with what you already know. (That's the hard part - being willing to accept God's will, no matter what it is or what it requires of us - and all of us struggle with this in some way - the need to give up something we like in order to embrace God's will and truth, which are better than what we already have / know / want.)

[Sunday21]

1 hour ago, zil said:

While it's impossible to say for certain without knowing the details of the experience, I'd say this sounds like the Holy Ghost bearing witness of the truthfulness of this book.

Hooray!  We need you!

No need to be hesitant.  It's a place, but why focus on a place none of us want any of us to end up?  We prefer to focus on the best rather than the worst!

Please see this talk by President Uchtdorf, particularly the section titled "There Is Room for You".  We also believe God is omnipotent, omniscient, and though I've not heard it said this way, omnibenevolent, and eternal.  "Big human being" is not a correct descriptor of what we believe.  It is woefully insufficient to describe the majesty, power, and glory of God.  I would recommend you let go of all pre-existing ideas (yours or anyone else's) and study the things the scriptures say about God and Jesus Christ (including, since you're investigating the church, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price), then study Mormon teachings about the nature of God and Jesus Christ, and ponder further, and pray for revelation and guidance all throughout your study.

God is very much your creator.  He is literally the Father of your spirit, which houses your pre-existing intelligence (the details of how that works, we have no idea).  All intelligent beings are eternal, it is true, but God is still the Father of your spirit.

This is an important and foundational belief, and could eventually hinder your progress in the faith since so many other beliefs hinge on this one.  But see the talk above by President Uchtdorf - everyone has some question or other(s) to work through eventually.  Some resources to help in your study of this topic:

https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng

There are various links from that page, one of which is this: https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-2?lang=eng&_r=1  and at the bottom of that are links to various scriptures which teach the concepts involved.

https://www.lds.org/topics/god-the-father?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/god?lang=eng&letter=g

I recommend continued study, prayer, and investigation.  But keep in mind that the important thing is truth, and sometimes our preconceived ideas are close to truth, but incomplete, and in order to move forward in gaining knowledge and understanding, we have to be willing to let go of incorrect things and embrace correct ones - adjust our understaning.  I think some have a hard time with this idea because contrary teachings are so pervasive, and yet, those teachings aren't compatible with scripture (see above) which makes it plain that we are created in God's image - and Christ was in God's express image - in other words, God looks like a man (because he is an exalted man).  Also, people think too little of their own capacity - as children of God, we are capable of progress, of expansion, and eternity is a very, very long time - Mormons don't believe we'll die or even be resurrected and suddenly in an instant be like God - we believe that will take a very, very long time of learning, practice, and progression, tutored by the Master.  Along with everything else you're pondering, ponder this: Why did Christ tell us to follow his example (without caveats or limits) unless he intended us to become perfect as he became perfect - to follow his example all the way back to our Father?  Why did he say:

...unless he meant for us to become like our Father in heaven?

NOTE: These are questions I mean for you to study and ask yourself, not necessarily respond to here.  Also, making the case for what you currently believe will not help you to do anything except reinforce that belief.  If you wish to determine whether what Mormons believe is true, you have to explore that with an open mind, with a willingness to believe, if it turns out to be true.

These things are what Mormons believe, and we will do our best to help you understand them, but in the end, testimony and truth come by revelation from God through the Holy Ghost (emphasis mine):

You too can receive revelation on this topic, if you're willing to accept whatever God reveals to you, regardless of how it fits with what you already know. (That's the hard part - being willing to accept God's will, no matter what it is or what it requires of us - and all of us struggle with this in some way - the need to give up something we like in order to embrace God's will and truth, which are better than what we already have / know / want.)

Wonderful very comprehensive answer. You could also try reading an account of Joseph Smith's vision, the missionaries will give you a pamphlet, and pray to know if this event occurred.

[Jane_Doe]

Well Zil already hit a home run, but I'll try to add a little---  (And by the way-- questions are a FANTASTIC thing-- never doubt that!)

3 hours ago, idontknow said:

So a few months ago I had a really strong religious experience while reading the Book of Mormon.  I never had such an overpowering experience in my life.  I just can’t stop thinking about that experience ever since it happened.  It has haunted me every day since it occurred and I am sure it will continue to haunt me in the future. 

In addition to this religious experience, I also really like the practical side of Mormonism.  I like the fact that Mormons have a really strong sense of community and have a far more active church life in comparison to the non-Mormon churches I visited.  I've seen quite a few people complain about the fact that the Mormon Church is so demanding.  But that's one of the things I like about it.  I want a church that is going to play a large role in my life because nothing is more important to me than further developing my relationship with my Creator.    I’m a little hesitant to admit this but I also like the fact that there's much less of an emphasis on Hell in Mormonism, too. 

WOHHHOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

3 hours ago, idontknow said:

 I personally believe in the classical theistic conception of God – a disembodied spirit who is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and eternal.  And unfortunately a big human being just doesn’t fit such a description. 

Do you believe that Christ was raised from the dead?  Literally, in the flesh?  The Bible makes this abundantly cleared, and then He ascended into Heaven.  

So, if you acknowledge Christ as 100% divine, Son of God, literally having a body in Heaven.... why do you picture God as a disembodied?  Is this what the Bible points to?

3 hours ago, idontknow said:

What’s even worse about the Mormon concept of God is that I can’t even call him my “creator”.  Instead, my spirit is co-eternal with His.  So if I am a Mormon then I can’t even say God is my “creator”, he's just the “molder” of my pre-existing “intelligence”.

He DID create you!  He brought your spirit to life, nurtured you, mentored you, and loved you to an incompresenable level-- enough to set you free, to give you every opportunity to reject him and never return, and to sacrifice His Perfect Son to save you.  He IS your Father and Creator.  

3 hours ago, idontknow said:

So my question is does a Mormon *have* to believe God is literally a human being?  What is the Mormon basis for asserting that God is a ‘perfected’ human being anyways? 

Human being?  Do you mean a fallible hateful creature like I am?  No, God is not that.

God is Perfect.  Perfect Love, Perfect action, Perfect belief, Perfect body, Perfect righteous, Perfect knowledge etc.

Having a body does not make one evil or sinful-- sinning is what makes one sinful.  Think of Christ: He was in no way sinful, and yet dwelt in a tabernacle of flesh-- a tabernacle so valuable that it's first (flawed) version was the last creation in Genesis, and it's Perfected creation will be God's last creation at the final resurrection.  

3 hours ago, idontknow said:

The religious experience I had and the time I spent in the church feels like it is telling me to do one thing that conflicts with my deeply held beliefs about the nature of God.  I don’t know what to do other than to cry. 

May I ask... are you scared of the unknown?  Does the prospect of a new transformative belief scare you-- even if it is so RIGHT?  Obviously I don't know if this is what you are feeling, but I can imagine, because it's how most people (myself included) feel at the unknown and changing.  Heck, I was even terrified of the unknown of falling in love with my husband!  It's a very natural way to feel.

Now the question is: do you let natural human fears make the decision, or God?

 

[Guest]

On 9/2/2016 at 6:07 PM, idontknow said:

I am thinking about converting to Mormonism based on a religious experience...

That sounds wonderful.  Be grateful for that experience and cherish it.

On 9/2/2016 at 6:07 PM, idontknow said:

Now the problem I have with fully accepting Mormonism is that I just can't bring myself to accept the Mormon belief that God is a 'perfected' human being who lives on another planet near the star Kolob. 

The perfected human being part:  There is a LOT more to the doctrine than that simple statement.  It will take a while for you to learn about it.  But there really is more.

As far as Kolob: There is much about that doctrine that indicates it is much more figurative than literal.  Take time.  Learn about it.  

On 9/2/2016 at 6:07 PM, idontknow said:

 I personally believe in the classical theistic conception of God – a disembodied spirit who is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and eternal. 

Well, how much of that is really different?  Only the disembodied spirit part.  The rest is what LDS doctrine says He is.  Does the "physical description" really mean that much?  If so, consider this.

Do you create God by the image you have in your mind?  Or did God create you in His image?  (more on the "created" part below).  If you believe He is your creator, then believe it.  Don't attempt to force Him to fit your mold.  The idea is to change ourselves into the person He wants us to be, not to change God into the form we expect Him to be.

On 9/2/2016 at 6:07 PM, idontknow said:

 What’s even worse about the Mormon concept of God is that I can’t even call him my “creator”.  Instead, my spirit is co-eternal with His.  So if I am a Mormon then I can’t even say God is my “creator”, he's just the “molder” of my pre-existing “intelligence”.

Why can't you call Him "my father"?  Your parents created you even though you existed before your birth.  Your Heavenly Father created you even though your intelligence existed before your spiritual birth.  We do call Him our "Creator".  I don't know what perspective you have in your mind that would prevent you from doing so from a Mormon doctrinal perspective.  But nothing in our theology would contraindicate the idea that God created us -- regardless of what you've heard about "intelligence".

On 9/2/2016 at 6:07 PM, idontknow said:

So my question is does a Mormon *have* to believe God is literally a human being? 

You can believe whatever you want.  But if you're going to subscribe to a belief system you need to be clear about why you're choosing it.  Would the reason for your choice require you to believe it?  What would actually change in your behavior or your relationship with Him based on that belief?

I also, personally, wonder what you have in mind when you say "God is literally a human being".  The fact that He's "perfected" is much deeper and much more differentiating than such a word would indicate.  A perfected being vs a mortal flawed human is a stark difference no matter the species.  The difference is far greater than a blank slate baby vs a wisened elder of over 100 years.  A perfected human would still be beyond our comprehension at this point.

On 9/2/2016 at 6:07 PM, idontknow said:

What is the Mormon basis for asserting that God is a ‘perfected’ human being anyways?

Revelation.  If you've had the experience you're indicating about the Book of Mormon, then you know what personal revelation means.  If you've gone through the missionary discussions or read much about our beliefs then you know that we believe in continuing revelation through a living Prophet.

6th Article of Faith: We believe in the same organization that existed in the primitive church, namely apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, etc.

9th Article of Faith: We believe in all that God has revealed, all that he does now reveal, and we believe that he will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

If the Lord has given you enough light to know that the Book of Mormon is true, then you also know that Joseph was the Prophet of the Restoration.  If you know that, then the revelations he conveyed to us as the mouthpiece of the Lord will also be taken as true as the Book of Mormon.

If you know that Christ is asking you to come to Him, you need to go to Him.  Don't ask Him to come to you.  He's already done that.  It's time now to do as he wants you to do and believe the words which He has provided you.

Edited September 4, 2016 by Guest

[Blackmarch]

On 9/2/2016 at 5:07 PM, idontknow said:

I am thinking about converting to Mormonism based on a religious experience...

So a few months ago I had a really strong religious experience while reading the Book of Mormon.  I never had such an overpowering experience in my life.  I just can’t stop thinking about that experience ever since it happened.  It has haunted me every day since it occurred and I am sure it will continue to haunt me in the future. 

In addition to this religious experience, I also really like the practical side of Mormonism.  I like the fact that Mormons have a really strong sense of community and have a far more active church life in comparison to the non-Mormon churches I visited.  I've seen quite a few people complain about the fact that the Mormon Church is so demanding.  But that's one of the things I like about it.  I want a church that is going to play a large role in my life because nothing is more important to me than further developing my relationship with my Creator.    I’m a little hesitant to admit this but I also like the fact that there's much less of an emphasis on Hell in Mormonism, too.    

Now the problem I have with fully accepting Mormonism is that I just can't bring myself to accept the Mormon belief that God is a 'perfected' human being who lives on another planet near the star Kolob.  I personally believe in the classical theistic conception of God – a disembodied spirit who is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and eternal.  And unfortunately a big human being just doesn’t fit such a description.  What’s even worse about the Mormon concept of God is that I can’t even call him my “creator”.  Instead, my spirit is co-eternal with His.  So if I am a Mormon then I can’t even say God is my “creator”, he's just the “molder” of my pre-existing “intelligence”.

So my question is does a Mormon *have* to believe God is literally a human being?  What is the Mormon basis for asserting that God is a ‘perfected’ human being anyways?  I feel so conflicted right now.  The religious experience I had and the time I spent in the church feels like it is telling me to do one thing that conflicts with my deeply held beliefs about the nature of God.  I don’t know what to do other than to cry. 

 

 

No.The requirements are to Follow Christ, repent, be baptised, and live obedient to him. (in regards to the LDS church part of that is sustaining those he has called and has given his authority to, which we hold as our prophets and apostles and etc. Believing Joseph smith and the book of mormon, bible etc..).
I think you will find that holding that view as a mormon will become difficult tho given all the stuff we have would strongly suggest otherwise, but give all things their season and don't rush- don't rush to dump it, but don't rush to keep it either; sometimes we are asked to sacrifice things that seem great to us.
however in all things you should seek God's help. Sometimes we end up having things we have to unlearn... even those who have been inside the gospel all their lives.
And sometimes we are tasked with taking a leap of faith.

 Have you sought God's adivice on the matter? Study it out, pray and fast- and ask God directly if you should keep that knowledge as it is or if it needs correcting in some manner. this seems something important to you, i believe the best recourse is to gain God's assurance whether it's ok or not to change what you know.



PS i consider God to be my Creator, and have referred to him as that on multiple occasions


PPS some semantics and minor points, perhaps you might find these trivial things useful or not.

1.We don't have anything that says he lives on Kolob.
2.There are many ways to use the term create; that there are more ways than solely ex-nihilo
3. We know God has a physical body from revelations that we have been given in these days, but none of them say that it consists of Human DNA (but we know it looks humanfrom the few prophets who have had the experience of meeting him... and that Christ is considered to be exactly like his father) Personally I'd argue we were made to look like God, and made capable of becoming as he is rather than the other way around.

[chasingthewind]

Thanks for the responses but I've officially given up on Mormonism. The Mormon concept of God is just hopelessly confused.  Judaism and Islam look far more promising.

 

[prisonchaplain]

If ease of understanding is the measure, Judaism has an easier-to-understand God. However, there are 613 basic commandments.  Islam has an easier-to-understand God too, but you'll need to learn Arabic if you want to read their true scriptures (translations are considered as paraphrases). 

 

[zil]

33 minutes ago, idontknow said:

Thanks for the responses but I've officially given up on Mormonism. The Mormon concept of God is just hopelessly confused.  Judaism and Islam look far more promising.

 

I sincerely wish you the very best in your efforts to learn and draw closer to God.  I ask you to ponder, however, whether 9 days are long enough to come to understand something as significant as a belief system or even the nature of a deity.

[bytebear]

Hmmm, I guess the concept of God as the father of our spirits just doesn't seem that confusing to me.  God is our Father, and our potential become clear when we understand the true relationship between the creator and His creation. It's probably the greatest aspect unique to Mormonism.

[chasingthewind]

12 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

If ease of understanding is the measure, Judaism has an easier-to-understand God. However, there are 613 basic commandments.  Islam has an easier-to-understand God too, but you'll need to learn Arabic if you want to read their true scriptures (translations are considered as paraphrases). 

 

Nothing can possibly be easier to understand and simple-minded than the belief that God is a really big human being living inside the universe.

[chasingthewind]

7 hours ago, bytebear said:

God is our Father, and our potential become clear when we understand the true relationship between the creator and His creation.

There is no creator in Mormonism.

 

[pam]

5 minutes ago, idontknow said:

There is no creator in Mormonism.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this.  We do believe that God created all and created us in His image.

[zil]

24 minutes ago, idontknow said:

There is no creator in Mormonism.

It is really illogical for a non-believer to tell a believer what said believer believes.

I'm a believer (a Mormon).  I know that we (Mormons) teach and believe that there is a creator - God our Father in Heaven.  And actually, there are two.  The second is Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

[estradling75]

42 minutes ago, idontknow said:

There is no creator in Mormonism.

 

Thank you for telling me what I believe...  Now please knock it off.

If you want to discuss God with us then actually listen to what we tell you...  If you feel your brief and superficial investigation into the Mormon beliefs has given you all you want to know then by all means leave (and don't let the door hit you on the way out)...  But don't sit here and think you can insult us with your shallow minded opinions without provoking a response.

[zil]

13 hours ago, idontknow said:

The Mormon concept of God is just hopelessly confused.

 

55 minutes ago, idontknow said:

Nothing can possibly be easier to understand and simple-minded than the belief that God is a really big human being living inside the universe.

These two statements appear to contradict each other.  Further, as has already been said, your "really big human being" description is not an accurate summation of what we believe.  Indeed, it sounds like mockery of our beliefs (as does your "simple-minded" descriptor) and God.  If you don't intend to mock, perhaps you could clarify with other terms (assuming you want a discussion).  If you do (intend to mock), please ponder whether a mocking and cynical attitude is conducive to finding and recognizing spiritual truth, or if it will hinder understanding - regardless of where or to whom you go looking for information.

If you cannot bring yourself to sincerely ponder and study this belief, that's fine, but you could try a little harder to be respectful, civil, and gracious.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

Thank you for telling me what I believe...  Now please knock it off.

 

Someone told me once that the name of the rock band Kiss really meant "Knights in Satans Service." I said "Ever heard a song by them?" "No." "Ever been to a concert?" "No." "Ever bought an album?" "No"."Ever read an interview with a band member?" "No"I then said "So you know more about them than a lifelong fan, huh?"

It didn't shut them up but it made them look foolish. 

[zil]

48 minutes ago, zil said:

Further, as has already been said, your "really big human being" description is not an accurate summation of what we believe.

It occurs to me that so long as you, @idontknow, hold on to this idea (which you yourself describe as simple-minded), you will never be able to move past it and understand what we truly believe.

In a conversation with my dad, he said he felt that many atheists were atheists because they had never been taught the truth about God and his plan for us.  All their exposure was either to partial truths, misunderstandings, or straw-man descriptions of God and his purposes.  And without having been taught the truth (so that the Spirit could testify to them), it was no wonder they rejected all the false things they had been taught.  IMO, it is unfortunate when someone rejects the possibility of truth because they think that after n falsehoods, there is no truth to be found. (Where n is whatever number that person reached before giving up.)

[prisonchaplain]

5 hours ago, idontknow said:

Nothing can possibly be easier to understand and simple-minded than the belief that God is a really big human being living inside the universe.

That might be easy--but who teaches that? Not Judaism or Islam. In all three Abrahamic religions humans are the creation of God.  The closest we get to your statement would be the incarnation--the "en-fleshment" of Jesus.  Judaism and Islam both reject that doctrine.

[prisonchaplain]

5 hours ago, idontknow said:

There is no creator in Mormonism.

 

I know the poster can answer for himself, but if I might speculate--he could be referring to the idea of creation-out-of-nothing.  If someone believed that the only real creation was "out of nothing," then would it be fair to say there is no creator in LDS theology?

Edited September 12, 2016 by prisonchaplain

[zil]

6 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I know the poster can answer for himself, but if I might speculate--he could be referring to the idea of creation-out-of-nothing.  If someone believed that the only real creation was "out of nothing," then would it be fair to say there is no creator in LDS theology?

The word "creator" does not inherently include the caveat "out of nothing".  So, if you want to say, "Mormons do not believe in a being who creates something out of nothing." then you would be correct.  But you cannot abbreviate that into the less-specific "creator" and expect everyone to both understand and agree with you.

IMO, when people with disparate understandings communicate, they need to be more explicit and avoid abbreviated jargon; and when you're on a site dedicated to the beliefs of a particular religion, you have to be extra careful as the believers will always assume the term is being used they way they use it.  So if you want to use the term in a different way, you need to be explicit to ensure understanding.

IMO, lack of specificity is troubling because far too many people use said lack to create vague straw men and then knock them down - a useless practice at best.

[jerome1232]

If a create a painting am I not simply organizing inks onto a fabric which is itself fibers that have been organized and weaved to make a flat surface?

I can't think of an instance in which to create is not actually an act of organizing materials, I don't think lacking ex-nihilo means lack of a creator 

[zil]

22 minutes ago, jerome1232 said:

If a create a painting am I not simply organizing inks onto a fabric which is itself fibers that have been organized and weaved to make a flat surface?

I can't think of an instance in which to create is not actually an act of organizing materials, I don't think lacking ex-nihilo means lack of a creator 

Meanwhile, I'd like to see one of your paintings.

[prisonchaplain]

@zil  I agree with the importance of being a good guest--especially in spiritual environs.  It's just too easy for me to imagine many people having no exposure to the belief in eternal matter, assuming that God-creation is out of nothing. Thus, when they hear the doctrine of Premortality they might presume that LDS do not believe in God-as-Creator. In past years I have had my own conversations with LDS in which I asked, "Doesn't that make God more of a fashioner or inventor, rather than I creator?"  I must have been cautious enough in my wording, as I do not recall come across abrasively, and I got a response very similar to @jerome1232's.

[zil]

6 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

@zil  I agree with the importance of being a good guest--especially in spiritual environs.  It's just too easy for me to imagine many people having no exposure to the belief in eternal matter, assuming that God-creation is out of nothing. Thus, when they hear the doctrine of Premortality they might presume that LDS do not believe in God-as-Creator. In past years I have had my own conversations with LDS in which I asked, "Doesn't that make God more of a fashioner or inventor, rather than I creator?"  I must have been cautious enough in my wording, as I do not recall come across abrasively, and I got a response very similar to @jerome1232's.

I understand.  The situation you describe already had context (or developed context).  I guess I'm just opposed to using less-specific terms when understanding is needed (less-specific does not lead to clarity, IMO).  Anywho, civility and persistence will usually get one there, and I agree, our OP may be using "creator" in the ex-nihilo context only, but if so, he should be explicit once he understand that this isn't how Mormons use the term.