Best Post-Election Reaction

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

5 hours ago, Backroads said:

I'll be honest... I'm way third-party over here. I agree that the other side has done plenty of wrong and have witnessed it.

I'm third party too.  This year is the third election I have voted third party.  We have that in common.   

[askandanswer]

On 11/14/2016 at 2:17 PM, Backroads said:

We need a good alien invasion or something to unite us in a common goal.

Trump might say that you've already had the alien invasion and it came from Mexico. It united enough of the people to get him the presidency. Now, having been elected, he wants to return the aliens back to where they came from. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I'm third party too.  This year is the third election I have voted third party.  We have that in common.   

I'm thinking about joining the 3rd party but don't know how to change what I'm registered as. Do I go to city hall? I live in Utah? I'm thinking of either being a Independent or a Libtertarian but can't decide between the two yet, I need to study them more. How do you change party affiliation in Utah?

Edited November 16, 2016 by Zarahemla

[Just_A_Guy]

53 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

I'm thinking about joining the 3rd party but don't know how to change what I'm registered as. Do I go to city hall? I live in Utah? I'm thinking of either being a Independent or a Libtertarian but can't decide between the two yet, I need to study them more. How do you change party affiliation in Utah?

You will need to re-register to vote.  See https://vote.utah.gov/vote/menu/online.html.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

You will need to re-register to vote.  See https://vote.utah.gov/vote/menu/online.html.

Thanks done! I just changed to unaffiliated party because I don't want association with any particular party.

[SilentOne]

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Trump might say that you've already had the alien invasion and it came from Mexico. It united enough of the people to get him the presidency. Now, having been elected, he wants to return the aliens back to where they came from. 

I now know that any variation of the phrase 'put ___ back where ___ came from' is going to make me think of this, at least when I'm tired:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z286f9gAGvE

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

@Backroads it occurred to me this morning, that I should clarify I do understand that not all Trump supporters are racist.  There are many like your dad, or PC, or people I know that voted for him for other reasons.  I was just trying to explain what some people in our country are feeling now, but that does not necessarily reflect my feelings.  

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

16 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

I'm thinking about joining the 3rd party but don't know how to change what I'm registered as. Do I go to city hall? I live in Utah? I'm thinking of either being a Independent or a Libtertarian but can't decide between the two yet, I need to study them more. How do you change party affiliation in Utah?

First, I'm glad to hear that!  Second, I'm glad JAG answered your question, because I'm in Washington, so I'm not familiar with the laws in Utah. 

[unixknight]

13 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

@Backroads it occurred to me this morning, that I should clarify I do understand that not all Trump supporters are racist.  There are many like your dad, or PC, or people I know that voted for him for other reasons.  I was just trying to explain what some people in our country are feeling now, but that does not necessarily reflect my feelings.  

Glad to hear it, though I suspect folks around here know you didn't feel that way

The problem is this narrative is being run with like a football on Superbowl Sunday.  A close friend of mine and I very nearly had a falling out because he was making exactly that claim, which would mean members of my family and other friends are racist, by that accusation.  (Actually, in his case it was sexism, but the same logic, or lack thereof, applies.)  He did soften his stance to acknowledge that exceptions exist, but I still think he, like most who are pushing that narrative, are missing the point.

Think about where the accusations of racism, sexism, etc. are coming from... By and large, they're coming from mainstream media sources like CNN, MSNBC, etc... sources who have completely blown away what remained of their objectivity and credibility in the eyes of most conservatives.  So CNN says Trump is a racist and a misogynist?  Why should the average Republican give a fig about that?  They say that about every single Republican candidate anyway.  Did Trump make it ridiculously easy?  Well... yes... yes he did, let's be fair.  But where one side sees a misogynist and bigot, the other side sees an aspiring shock jock who should have ended everything he said one sentence early.  One side is looking to exaggerate the nature of everything Trump says, the other side mostly ignored it. 

The problem is liberals are judging conservatives as though the conservatives saw and heard it the same way liberals did.  In that light, NO WONDER they think Trump voters are all so evil... liberals are projecting their own bias onto conservatives and then judging them on that basis.

And that's where the liberals are missing the point.

[zil]

1 hour ago, unixknight said:

The problem is liberals are judging conservatives as though the conservatives saw and heard it the same way liberals did.  In that light, NO WONDER they think Trump voters are all so evil... liberals are projecting their own bias onto conservatives and then judging them on that basis.

That.  We could take this and expand it into a treatise explaining every misunderstanding that ever was, I think.  Everyone does this in some way or another - not consciously, necessarily, but they simply cannot imagine that their understanding of the situation is incomplete (or, ack, wrong).  Until we expand our imaginations, and get a bit more humble about other perspectives, we'll keep having every sort of ideological conflict driven by erroneous belief and misunderstanding about those other perspectives.

Edited November 16, 2016 by zil
out > our

[unixknight]

43 minutes ago, zil said:

That.  We could take this and expand it into a treatise explaining every misunderstanding that ever was, I think.  Everyone does this in some way or another - not consciously, necessarily, but they simply cannot imagine that their understanding of the situation is incomplete (or, ack, wrong).  Until we expand out imaginations, and get a bit more humble about other perspectives, we'll keep having every sort of ideological conflict driven by erroneous belief and misunderstanding about those other perspectives.

Definitely agreed... but even if it's the kind of issue where there really isn't a wrong or right... people just can't fathom that there's another way of looking at something besides their own.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

2 hours ago, unixknight said:

The problem is liberals are judging conservatives as though the conservatives saw and heard it the same way liberals did.  In that light, NO WONDER they think Trump voters are all so evil... liberals are projecting their own bias onto conservatives and then judging them on that basis.

And that's where the liberals are missing the point.

And Conservatives are guilty of the inverse. I mean they are guilty of thinking that Liberals think the way they do.  There is far to little understanding going on on both sides.  

Oops...I mean - what Zil said.  If I had read her post first, it would have saved me some typing.

Edited November 16, 2016 by LiterateParakeet

[Guest MormonGator]

25 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

  There is far to little understanding going on on both sides.  

I think both you and @unixknight are right. 

We will never agree on everything. That's one thing everyone needs to accept. It helps to develop personal relationships with those we disagree with, but that requires actually listening to them. Look at Justices Scalia and Ginsburg. They didn't agree on much. Yet her and Justice Kagan were both, in their words-devastated at his death. We could learn a lot from them. 

[estradling75]

I agree that neither side does a real good job of understanding what is going on on the other side.

 

However in the case of the Democrats/Republican groups... Only one side makes a big deal about showing tolerance, and acknowledging and accepting ones who are different. To the point of making part of their political platform.  Which means when they busily pigeon-hole someone from the other group.  Not only are they doing what both sides are doing but they are showing hypocrisy as well by going against the values they claim to embrace

 

Take for example the parent whose child is afraid because people voted for Trump. As a parent I can empathize, with a beloved kid throwing you a hard question that you weren't ready for.  But in this case the parent brought it on themselves.  Instead of teaching tolerance and acceptance of someone that is different, like they claim to believe in... They slap an offensive label on them and call it done.  Instead of acknowledging that like Hilary supporters, Trump Supporters could have many different reasons for supporting their candidate, they pick the worse possible reason and apply to everyone that does. 

[anatess2]

On 11/14/2016 at 3:32 PM, LiterateParakeet said:

Absolutely, I agree with you that there is a difference between race insensitive and racist.  No problem there.  I disagree with you about Trump, but I'll just leave it at that.   

Who gets to make the call of who is being "overly sensitive" and "injecting race"?  It's white people who have the tendency to say that and to me it's the equivalent of "sit down, shut up and let me get back to watching my football game."  What reason do white people have to care about race as long as we are in the majority?  If we walked in their shoes for awhile (to coin a cliche) we might see things differently.

About the video, as I said to Backroads, I have acknowledged (more than once now) that there is wrong going on on both sides.  There is hate on both sides.  Are you ready to do the same and admit that some Trump supporters are throwing around hate as well? 

We'll just have to disagree on this one.  Trust me the other side sees things happening from the Conservatives and makes them dig their heels in deeper as well.  It goes both ways.  

Well, you can spend all your life getting special commendation for all your work towards the advancement of minorities but if somebody insists on calling you racist because you happen to have a livelihood that depends on property values and the new-fangled desegregation laws make it so you are forced to accept tenants that are demonstrably and statistically proven to cause property values to dive and so you try creative ways to protect your livelihood and people see that as "racist", then there's really nothing you can do about it.

I mean, it's really just like all these people calling LDS racists because they didn't lift the ban on black priesthood holders until the late 70's... you can explain until you're blue that you're not racist, or work until you're dead for the advancement of minorities, if somebody insists on calling you racist because you're LDS there's really nothing you can do about it.

 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Well, you can spend all your life getting special commendation for all your work towards the advancement of minorities but if somebody insists on calling you racist

People are people, there are wise men and fools on both sides of any issue. That's why I don't do what I do for kudos from anyone.  Only One Opinion matters, God's.  

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

People are people, there are wise men and fools on both sides of any issue. That's why I don't do what I do for kudos from anyone.  Only One Opinion matters, God's.  

Well, His and mine. DUH! 

Edited November 17, 2016 by MormonGator

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

6 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Well, His and mine. 

LOL, well there is that.  

[anatess2]

32 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

People are people, there are wise men and fools on both sides of any issue. That's why I don't do what I do for kudos from anyone.  Only One Opinion matters, God's.  

Many times I wished God would talk to me like my dad talks to me... with words uttered from his vocal chords raining wisdom in long paragraphs... then it's easier for me to figure out what he's trying to say. 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Many times I wished God would talk to me like my dad talks to me... with words uttered from his vocal chords raining wisdom in long paragraphs... then it's easier for me to figure out what he's trying to say. 

I know what you mean.  Sometimes heavenly communication is a bit mysterious...

[Vort]

3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

vocal chords

Dad was an opera singer.

[unixknight]

3 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

People are people, there are wise men and fools on both sides of any issue. That's why I don't do what I do for kudos from anyone.  Only One Opinion matters, God's.  

Right, but when you're constantly, relentlessly being called racist, or having people say things that insinuate you're a racist, it wears on you. 

We can make brave statements about how all that matters is what we truly believe or what God thinks or what our friends think, but that isn't really true.  Humans are psychologically designed to crave approval.  It's part of our communal instinct.  We want to be thought well of.  Of course it isn't the same for everyone... Some of us obsess over approval while others really do seem to be able to get along just fine without it... but we all want it, on some level.

The smartest things Trump did to win the election was to tap into that resentment, and it won him the Presidency.  Now the left wants to double down and push that tactic even harder.  A week ago I was certain that Trump would be a one term President.  Now I'm not so sure.  If the left intends to continue with that tactic, they're going to make it easy for him to win a second term.

[Vort]

14 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Right, but when you're constantly, relentlessly being called racist, or having people say things that insinuate you're a racist, it wears on you.

This is true, but it actually goes much deeper than that. Society itself is a construct consisting of rules to manage our interactions. Anciently, and even today in some places, some societies stratified people so that each had his or her role, which dictated how he or she comported himself or herself. (No more of this; I will use the generic "he" going forward.) For example, I have been told that this is how things work in Japan, where a person you meet is not even sure how to talk to you until he understands your position in the organization. It's not so much that he thinks more or less of you depending on your hierarchical position; rather, he literally does not know how to address you until he knows if you're a superior, an inferior, or an equal.

American society was founded on the idea that we're leaving all that nonsense behind in Merry Olde Corrupt England. No more lords and peasants. Some people might have more money and/or power, but in the eyes of the law, by golly, all men are created equal. There is no law for the nobles vs. law for the commoners, and rich people have to suffer the same consequences as poor people for the same actions.

It's easy to say, "Yeah, you can see how well THAT works!" But such facile cynicism ignores the reality that, if our justice system is often flawed and imperfect, it at least gets us roughly in the position of holding the rich and powerful equally accountable with the poor and weak. The execution is highly imperfect, but the idea is there, and it is not mocked as stupid or held in amazement as an odd and nonsensical, even undesirable and counterproductive, ideal.

Now: Get one side of a set of issues to have a (not overwhelming) majority over the opposite side. Allow those in power to set the limits of expression on which issues are allowed to be discussed, how they may be discussed, how the various parties may call themselves and how they may be represented, and so forth. Even if these limits do not have the force of law -- which they will be driven to do -- if societal institutions such as the press adopt them, they become the de facto standard. And guess what? One side is forcibly oppressed.

And step by step, the entire construct unravels.

That is what is going on.

[unixknight]

7 minutes ago, Vort said:

I have been told that this is how things work in Japan, where a person you meet is not even sure how to talk to you until he understands your position in the organization. It's not so much that he thinks more or less of you depending on your hierarchical position; rather, he literally does not know how to address you until he knows if you're a superior, an inferior, or an equal.

I've seen this at work.  I used to be a mechanic, and I worked at a Nissan dealership.  We once had a car in the shop with a warranty problem that we just couldn't figure out.  After trying and trying the issue just stumped us.  It was so unusual that a team of engineers from Japan actually flew out to the dealership, complete with white lab coats, to look at the car.

One day my manager, another tech and I were sitting in the break room having lunch.  The Japanese engineers were at a nearby table and were confused... They knew who the Service Manager was, and yet he was eating with these two techs.  They didn't know whether that meant he was a lot less important than they thought, or that we had much more authority than it seemed.

7 minutes ago, Vort said:

That is what is going on.

Agreed.  The elitism is breathtaking.  Even back in 2004 I remember Jeanine Garofalo in an interview saying GWB had won again because of those "knuckle dragging conservatives."  Basically her point was that we were too unsophisticated and ignorant to know that Kerry was the better candidate. 

I'm not gonna pretend that conservatives never talk trash about liberals, but can you remember the last time a public figure could talk that way about liberals?

(I mean before Trump.) 

I can't.   And that's a big part of Trump's appeal.  People see him as their champion who will push back against that.

[Guest MormonGator]

Something else I thought of: Bill Clinton once again proves himself as the smartest, most politically aware democrat in history: 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3935800/Days-losing-election-Hillary-Bill-Clinton-sceaming-match-blame-flagging-campaign-ex-president-angry-threw-phone-roof-Arkansas-penthouse.html