Katrina

I feel silly doubting a relationship over career prospects, but there it is

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I was once taking a walk with a professor who had recently arrived from china. She asked me some very personal questions about my life. I guess she was trying to understand a culture very different than her own. I had a boyfriend at that time, a nonmember who had joined the church and wanted to get married. I am divorced. I had recently decided that, no I would not marry him.

My professor friend was shocked. The idea of a divorced woman turning down such an offer was completely outside her experience. (My boyfriend was handsome, made good money, and was well liked by everyone. One of my visiting teachers was very disappointed with my decision and tried to persuade me to accept the proposal.)

The Chinese professor looked at me in wonder and said, Marriage is like a shoe. Only the person wearing the shoe knows if it fits.

if you have a great opportunity and you do not want to take it, sometimes the reasons that you give yourself are not the real reasons. Maybe, just maybe your unconscious has a reason that you do not know about consciously. Who knows what is going on in this situation? Maybe the people in this situation don't know themselves? Marriage is a big step. In the lds world it is a contract for eternity. 

In the lds world, young men have a lot of choices. You know the story of shoppers who presented with a huge selection of jams, leave the store without buying any jam? The choice is overwhelming. Leaders in my area sometimes tell the men to 'just pick one', I guess they are trying to get the men to make a decision in the face of overwhelming choice. In the case of a young women, the choice is not overwhelming so I would be inclined to look at the situation differently. If a young woman is reluctant, maybe her unconscious is saying no, for a reason that she does not realize herself? For me in these situations, I pray, go to the temple, read general conference and give the Lord the opportunity to talk to me. In this world of darkness, we need the light of Christ.

 

Edited by Sunday21

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Holy smokes, did I just read what I think I've read? I may have missed something, although I am certain I have not.

I'm so blessed that my sweet beautiful wife didn't find me less worthy of loving because I was career military and not someone wealthier or in a more prestigious vocation.  

Oh well, to each their own, I suppose..... 

Merry Christmas! 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Bad Karma said:

Holy smokes, did I just read what I think I've read? I may have missed something, although I am certain I have not.

I'm so blessed that my sweet beautiful wife didn't find me less worthy of loving because I was career military and not someone wealthier or in a more prestigious vocation.  

Oh well, to each their own, I suppose..... 

Merry Christmas! 

 

 

There is no career more honorable than serving our country and defending our freedoms.

Thank you for all you do.

Edited by DoctorLemon

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I think that teaching has more potential to change the world for the better than any other profession (although this might not apply to teachers of law Sunday21)

The Man who could not afford to pay His taxes, and did not own His own home, more than anything else, was a Teacher. 

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On 12/23/2016 at 6:26 AM, Katrina said:

Thanks for your thoughts. Some of them were a slap in the face, but I was prepared for that. 

To answer a few questions, my fiance is a sophomore, has mostly just done some generals, and I'm a junior. We dated before our missions and for a year after before getting engaged. I also grew up with not much fancy, but my parents were always pointing out the importance of showing the world just how good Mormons can be. I guess I was always taught that we need to be an example in all things, and that includes being successful in careers. I realize there are plenty of wonderful Saints in third-world countries, but those aren't here. 

My fiance was planning on working in public counseling, but he has talked about teaching since high school. I get where he's coming from.

It might be cold feet. I will take the suggestion to go the temple.

Of course you plan on waiting for marriage until after you're both out of school, and have a sound financial basis on which to establish a home and raise your children. 

You seemingly have a several year wait to sort these issues. 

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On 12/21/2016 at 4:24 PM, Katrina said:

I know a number of teachers and they all seem to make it all right even on one income,

I'll refrain from linking it here due to a small bit of language, but you might want to look up Taylor Mali's YouTube video on what teachers make.

And remember that wealth isn't guaranteed.  I had a coworker with both a J.D. and an accounting degree.  He burned out hard in both fields (to the point of multiple shrinks telling him to find something else to do or end up institutionalized for years) and will likely never be able to pay off all the student loans.  A family friend has a PhD in biochem, and a TBI from a car wreck that pretty much wiped it out.

Money may matter a bit for ~50-75 more years, but that's an infinitely small fraction of eternity.

Edited by NightSG

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Okay, I'm going to be honest and say that I might repeat some things that others have said because I skimmed and didn't read everything word for word.

That being said, I wonder how much of the concern is "cold feet" more than money for the future. When @MormonGator and I were engaged (we were not members at the time) never once was our career path a source of dispute. We both were going to get jobs and work hard to bring home enough money to meet our needs. To this day I don't care what the profession is as long as it makes us happy and we budget to work with what we have.

Just my two cents.

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On 12/23/2016 at 7:26 AM, Katrina said:

Thanks for your thoughts. Some of them were a slap in the face, but I was prepared for that. 

To answer a few questions, my fiance is a sophomore, has mostly just done some generals, and I'm a junior. We dated before our missions and for a year after before getting engaged. I also grew up with not much fancy, but my parents were always pointing out the importance of showing the world just how good Mormons can be. I guess I was always taught that we need to be an example in all things, and that includes being successful in careers. I realize there are plenty of wonderful Saints in third-world countries, but those aren't here. 

My fiance was planning on working in public counseling, but he has talked about teaching since high school. I get where he's coming from.

It might be cold feet. I will take the suggestion to go the temple.

I know you have already received a lot of good advice, but I wanted to add my thoughts. First, I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting a certain standard of living. I second the advice to discuss those concens with your fiance. You should get those expectations out on the table.

Second, wealth has nothing to do with righteousness. That line of thinking leads people to judging each other based on material wealth. There are many good people who are successful in their careers but aren't considered wealthy. One of my greatest pet peeves is that the word "success" seems to always be solely linked with material wealth. As an educator, your fiance will have all kinds of opportunity to make the world a better place. If he takes advantage of those opportunities to better the world, and both of you can live the life you want on your combined income, then what could be considered more successful?

One more thing, wealth is relative. I enjoy reading this blog: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/blog/

Edited by acerola

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16 minutes ago, acerola said:

 As an educator, your fiance will have all kinds of opportunity to make the world a better place.

My cousin started out wanting to be a college physics professor.  He was disappointed in the quality of the students he was meeting in college, so he decided to teach physics, chemistry and math in high school instead.  When he retired, about a third of the teachers in the school system here had been his students, and a large part of the district's high scores in math and sciences were due to his teaching ability.  He also managed to do a pretty good job of raising four kids and teaching Sunday School at the local Methodist church.

His funeral filled three churches, and donations in his memory funded a new science wing at the high school.  Just imagine if we all did even half as much to make the world a better place.

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Success is not a manifestation of righteousness. One of the most successful men I know is one who left the church years ago and contentedly spends his Sundays golfing and being glad he's not wasting his money on tithing anymore. One of the poorest men I know (a teacher) is faithful on a Lehi-like level. 

However, even though wealth does not equal righteousness,  you should seriously consider whether you and your fiance have the same life vision. A teacher's salary has, in my observation, almost universally meant a working mother (I do not know of a single family that gets by on a teacher's salary) and/or restrictions on the number of kids they have, and limited opportunities for their children. That's in addition to all the obvious things--old cars, small, older homes, limited vacations, etc. 

If you and your fiance agree that this is the lifestyle you want, then go for it. If not, then reconsider how this is going to go. 

Just don't use the argument that wealth equals God's favor. That's not accurate.

Edited by ldsister

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16 hours ago, ldsister said:

Success is not a manifestation of righteousness. One of the most successful men I know is one who left the church years ago and contentedly spends his Sundays golfing and being glad he's not wasting his money on tithing anymore. One of the poorest men I know (a teacher) is faithful on a Lehi-like level. 

However, even though wealth does not equal righteousness,  you should seriously consider whether you and your fiance have the same life vision. A teacher's salary has, in my observation, almost universally meant a working mother (I do not know of a single family that gets by on a teacher's salary) and/or restrictions on the number of kids they have, and limited opportunities for their children. That's in addition to all the obvious things--old cars, small, older homes, limited vacations, etc. 

If you and your fiance agree that this is the lifestyle you want, then go for it. If not, then reconsider how this is going to go. 

Just don't use the argument that wealth equals God's favor. That's not accurate.

I can name a dozen teachers who are the solitary breadwinner. Perhaps we are in different locations.

And I'm pretty sure this isn't what you meant, but the rest of your post is rubbing me the wrong way. Big new houses? Unlimited vacations? New cars? You make it sound like everyone but teachers have these. You have to have an abnormally big income or be really good at budgeting in order to have all that plus a decent savings plan. 

This also might be my personal mockery of Mcmansions, but not everyone wants a huge house.

Anywho, I guess I boil it down to living within your means.

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47 minutes ago, Katrina said:

It's not like I expect a doctor or lawyer salary to live on. But yes, I guess I do want people to look at my lifestyle and see what Mormons are capable of. 

I suppose I suggest making a very specific list of what you want in your future lifestyle. "More money" is vague. How big a house do you want? What kind of cars? That sort of thing. What do you need to feel you're setting a good example of Mormon life? What do you expect from your marriage as far as lifestyle? What are the musts and what are the big wants?

I feel this will be better than quibbling over careers. Say "Fiance, if we are to marry, this is what I will sooner or later require. Are you willing to get this for me in a timely manner?"

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1 hour ago, Backroads said:

I suppose I suggest making a very specific list of what you want in your future lifestyle. "More money" is vague. How big a house do you want? What kind of cars? That sort of thing. What do you need to feel you're setting a good example of Mormon life? What do you expect from your marriage as far as lifestyle? What are the musts and what are the big wants?

I feel this will be better than quibbling over careers. Say "Fiance, if we are to marry, this is what I will sooner or later require. Are you willing to get this for me in a timely manner?"

And make sure you leave the door propped open so he doesn't break the hinges rushing out.

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5 hours ago, Katrina said:

I do want people to look at my lifestyle and see what Mormons are capable of.

Try for this. You'll be happier. 

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5 hours ago, Backroads said:

I can name a dozen teachers who are the solitary breadwinner. Perhaps we are in different locations.

And I'm pretty sure this isn't what you meant, but the rest of your post is rubbing me the wrong way. Big new houses? Unlimited vacations? New cars? You make it sound like everyone but teachers have these. You have to have an abnormally big income or be really good at budgeting in order to have all that plus a decent savings plan. 

This also might be my personal mockery of Mcmansions, but not everyone wants a huge house.

Anywho, I guess I boil it down to living within your means.

We could be in different areas, or perhaps we're using the word "teacher," differently. I'm using it to refer to public-school educators k-12. Are you using it to mean college-level educators, by chance? That's a different profession than the one OP's fiance is studying, and it has very different salary prospects.
Of the teachers I know, even the wives with the staunchest beliefs in being SAHMs have had to pick up extra work. You're correct that many people struggle for "niceties," but my observation (coming from a long line of teachers and having a lot of teachers among my friends) has been that teachers struggle financially even more than others. And that's totally fine. It's a valid lifestyle choice. It's just important for OP and her husband to have an accurate view of what their lifestyles will be like and to be in agreement that they're happy to live that lifestyle in order for him to be a teacher. 

Edited by ldsister

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6 hours ago, Katrina said:

It's not like I expect a doctor or lawyer salary to live on. But yes, I guess I do want people to look at my lifestyle and see what Mormons are capable of. 

Setting aside your reasons for wanting a large salary, it sounds like you will be very unhappy trying to live on a teacher's salary. If this is a problem now, while you're engaged, it's likely to become an even larger problem once you're actually experiencing the reality of it. It would probably be good for your and your fiance to discuss this right now. 

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3 minutes ago, ldsister said:

 If this is a problem now, while you're engaged, it's likely to become an even larger problem once you're actually experiencing the reality of it. 

So true! I think people get married with the idea that it'll change people and problems will disappear just because you have a ring on your finger. I have seen friends get married with this way of thinking. Reality doesn't work that way. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Backroads said:

I would also caution the OP that while this is a good thing to consider before marriage, if you decide to split up, don't become a gold digger.

The sad part about being a gold digger is that eventually she'll be replaced when someone younger comes along. Sorry, but it's true. 

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8 hours ago, Katrina said:

But yes, I guess I do want people to look at my lifestyle and see what Mormons are capable of. 

I'm going to say that this is youth speaking here. but quite frankly the older you get the more you realize that in general other people don't give a hooting darn about you.  You just don't matter that much.  There are certainly groups of people who do care, like family members, close friends, ward family-etc. but otherwise people couldn't care less about you. And that is okay.  

The fact is that the vast majority of us are simply trying to solve our own problems and trying to live our own lives to the best of our abilities. Most people don't wake up in the morning and say to themselves.  "Boy, that Sally and Joe they have everything, see because they are Jewish (or whatever) look what they have accomplished, they are such an inspiration to me!".  Life just doesn't work that way-and quite frankly anyone who thinks it does is either inexperienced or too full of themselves.

Yes, there are always individuals and families who are inspirations to others, but the dirty little secret is that if the truth be known they've had their own ups and downs, their own struggles.  They've had arguments, failed businesses, gone bankrupt, lost jobs, etc. What makes them an inspiration isn't that they are perfect, have the perfect job, live a perfect life, make lots of money, etc.  What makes them an inspiration is that through their struggles they have overcome-they keep fighting, they succeed in spite of failures or even because of them. It's the attitude that makes them an inspiration.

It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than a rich man into the kingdom of heaven.  Why? Because the camel has to get down on knees to crawl through the needle and a rich man in general isn't humble enough to get on his knees and beg.  

Be very wary about seeking after riches so that the world can see it-that is not a good path to go down.

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9 hours ago, Katrina said:

It's not like I expect a doctor or lawyer salary to live on. But yes, I guess I do want people to look at my lifestyle and see what Mormons are capable of. 

This is the wrong mind frame.  You should never live your life based on what other people might think of you.  The key to happiness is walking with Christ, not walking according to what other people might think or material goods.

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On 1/2/2017 at 5:31 PM, MormonGator said:

The sad part about being a gold digger is that eventually she'll be replaced when someone younger comes along. Sorry, but it's true. 

Last one I had was replaced as soon as someone smarter came along. 

I mean really...you'd think the 1997 Saturn would have been a big clue for her. 

As for replacing her with a younger one, that one was already pushing the half-my-age-plus-7 thing. (Yeah, not that I pay any attention to that until I'm looking for an extra excuse to get away from a crazy one.)

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On 1/2/2017 at 10:36 AM, Katrina said:

It's not like I expect a doctor or lawyer salary to live on. But yes, I guess I do want people to look at my lifestyle and see what Mormons are capable of. 

Then show them that you're capable of being happy with what you have, no matter how little it is, because of who you have.  Catholics all over the world manage that one every day.  Until a lot more Mormons start showing it, the Pope is still going to be making faces at the Prophet when it comes time to.tally the recuiting numbers. 

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On 1/2/2017 at 3:31 PM, MormonGator said:

The sad part about being a gold digger is that eventually she'll be replaced when someone younger comes along. Sorry, but it's true. 

I call that the inherent thread of justice.

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