Hard To Have Faith...

[zach_doe]

Hi all,

I am currently struggling with some major weaknesses in my life and am finding it very difficult to overcome. What makes things worse, is the fact that I am wholly converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ, I have a testimony, I love the gospel with a passion, it is who I am.

But notwithstanding this conviction, I still am as weak as anyone I know. It shames me and cuts me to the core when I give in to my weaknesses because I know what i am doing, I know how wrong it is, I know that it is contrary to happiness and I can not have the beautiful things in life while I am a patron to this evil.

Now so far this post probably looks like it belongs in the Advice forum, but I wanted to stick it into this gospel discussion forum because I want more than advice, I want the doctrines and principles of Christ to assist me in overcoming.

I know that in and of myself, I can not overcome. I've tried, countless times, to white knuckle it and just push forward with sheer will power, hoping that i could just finally overcome. Result... failure.

Now here is the hard part... I've also tried with everything I am to submit to God, to plead for Christ to remove it from me, to study the atonement, to rely upon Christ for deliverance, to read scriptures every day and to pray on my knees both night and morning. I have done all of these things, hoping and pleading that i would be set free. Result... failure.

This breaks my heart, it breaks my will, and it hurts like nothing else. I have never been one to doubt, but recently, it has been difficult to keep doubt from creeping in.

If Christ truly can take our burdens from us, If he truly can set us free if we just do what he has asked... why hasn't it worked for me? I know that the Lord never violates his agreements, I know he never fails to uphold his end, and so I know that whatever the problem is, it is on my end and not His.

And now for the questions that I would hope for answers to...

How do we apply to saving grace of Jesus Christ to ourselves?

How do we lay hold upon the enabling power of Christ's Atonement?

How does God change us, change our very hearts, so that we have no more desire to sin?

What must we do so that Christ will save us from our sins?

Now, these may seem like common questions, and no doubt there are quick and easy answers to them. But thats not what I'm looking for, I don't want the cliche response that is so common. But rather, truly think about these questions, let them sink, and hopefully someone, anyone, will be able to help.

Thank you all for your time in reading this, I appreciate any help or advice that i can get, thank you.

[Dr T]

Great post John.

How do we apply to saving grace of Jesus Christ to ourselves?

How do we lay hold upon the enabling power of Christ's Atonement?

How does God change us, change our very hearts, so that we have no more desire to sin?

What must we do so that Christ will save us from our sins?

I come from a different religion and consequently see these concepts differently than you. These issue are at the root of my convition that we continue to be sinful but we learn to sin less as we go. We don't do anything to earn salvation from Christ. When we see our sinfulness and accept Jesus' life, death and resurrection to cover our sins and accept him into our life, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. That is the only way for him to save us from our sins. We cannot earn our way into heaven. That's all I'll say for now and see what others have to say on your questions. Again, great post John

[dibster]

How do we apply to saving grace of Jesus Christ to ourselves?

How do we lay hold upon the enabling power of Christ's Atonement?

How does God change us, change our very hearts, so that we have no more desire to sin?

What must we do so that Christ will save us from our sins?

You know, I am not sure I am too equipped to respond to your post, partly because it seems quite a personal struggle. Hopefully the writings of Paul below might give you some hope and courage. I encourage you to pray about these verses and ponder them in your heart, be strong and let God's Word fill you with hope.

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us" Romans 5:1-5

Interestingly, Paul also struggled with personal sin, even though he knew how wrong it was, and had been supremely blessed by God. He could see this dichotomy in himself and wrote about it in Romans 7. What I love above all about this quote is that despite feeling wretched in himself, Paul still knows he must thank God, and put Him first.

"I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 7:22-25

God promises to remain faithful to those who have accepted Him and trust in Him. When we trust in ourselves to overcome our weaknesses or to go our own way, we will not get far. God wants to work in us, and we have to give our will to Him to do that. This must be the hardest thing in the world to do!!!

Just to focus on this one for a moment:

What must we do so that Christ will save us from our sins?

Jesus made that very clear in in John 3:16. The hard part to understand is that whilst we will not stop sinning overnight, we can be assured we will not be punished for our sins, since we have accepted Christ suffering and dying in our place. With Jesus then as our Saviour, He can open our hearts to let Him work in our lives to change us, but it is an ongoing process, no-one stops sinning overnight. It requires our openness to God's will and desire in our lives. I pray He will work in yours.

PS My views are not LDS and I am not LDS, though I used to be, so the answers others give may well be very different to mine.

[tiancum]

You kept saying failure. When i read your post, it was NOT a story of failure. Not at all. It is a story of perseverance.

Have you ever tried to chop down a Redwood tree? One man and an axe would take a very long time. Some of our weaknesses are as big as redwoods, and The Lord in his mercy lets us work for it, and it take a very long time sometimes. One of my weaknesses was exposed to me when I was 13, and 25 years later, I am finally seeing light at the end of the tunnel. As I look back, I don't beat myself up for taking so long, but thank God for giving me the strength to continue along his path of repentance for 25 years. Without him, i would ahve given up 24 years ago.

The reason you have the strength to continue, and keep learning and trying, is because God, your heavenly Father has not given up on you. Why do you think the scriptures ask for us to have patience.

You are no different than any other true follower of Christ. You see your sin, pray, for deliverance and hunker down for the long haul.

You are in a much better boat than those, and there are many, who think they actually keep the commandments. NOPE SORRY, all are lost and fallen.

Remember, our father in heaven gave us Faith to get us through the hard times, the dark times, the times when we want to give up. It isn't true faith unless its strong enough to guide you through these times. Look into your heart and see, it is strong enough. I know you are strong enough to hang in there. Patience in affliction. I know you will be delivered. I know it.

[cmcguiga]

Great post John.

How do we apply to saving grace of Jesus Christ to ourselves?

How do we lay hold upon the enabling power of Christ's Atonement?

How does God change us, change our very hearts, so that we have no more desire to sin?

What must we do so that Christ will save us from our sins?

I come from a different religion and consequently see these concepts differently than you. These issue are at the root of my convition that we continue to be sinful but we learn to sin less as we go. We don't do anything to earn salvation from Christ. When we see our sinfulness and accept Jesus' life, death and resurrection to cover our sins and accept him into our life, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. That is the only way for him to save us from our sins. We cannot earn our way into heaven. That's all I'll say for now and see what others have to say on your questions. Again, great post John

We all know that through the atonement, Jesus Christ opens the door of heaven (spirit world) for everyone ever born and saves us from the EFFECTS of sin and death. However our Lord tells us of the impending Judgement upon Latter-day Saints and all people of the earth. Thence if there will be a judgement we must be judged by our WORKS and be given one of the many mansions he has promised he has prepared for us otherwise he would have told us.

[Dr T]

Hi CAMG,

You see Jesus' work differently. Jesus make it possible for "whosoever believeth in him" to be saved-not all people will be. Not everybody ever born will be with him. True belief in him changes behavior but that is not what saves or doesn't.

[a-train]

Perhaps I am going the wrong direction here, but it sounds like what our threadstarter is really looking for is more practical.

How does one overcome a particular aptitude toward a certain transgression? The answer starts off as: 'Stop doing it.' But our good friend cannot. What then do we do?

Do what you CAN DO!

Fast, pray morning and night, read the scriptures every day, attend meetings, have family home evening, pay a full tithe and offer a good fast offering. Don't let those things that you CAN do go undone because of feelings of failure in one particular area.

Look at it like this: Imagine a man who cannot stop smoking pot. Imagine he pays his tithing, prays regularly (he doesn't wait for days of weeks until he breaks down in prayer), he reads his scriptures every day, he does everything that that he should be doing accept he smokes weed. Why, he is the most saintly pothead ever. It will be a lot easier for him to quit smoking than someone who is not living any aspect of the gospel.

Make a list of those things that you CAN do and began doing them immediately. Place those things above all else. The scriptures, prayers, fasting, tithes and offerings, meetings, etc. must be priority. Seek first the kingdom of God and your deliverance from your affliction will be added to you.

-a-train

[zach_doe]

Tiancum, thank you for your reply, I had not quite thought of it in that light before, but that gives me added hope. Do you think that with each weakness, we are supposed to learn a lesson from that weakness and that we won't be delivered until we've learned our part? Just a thought I had.

Surely the Lord does not like it when we sin, therefore I do not believe that he wants me to struggle with my weakness for years, I believe that he wants me to forsake my sins from this very hour and to never sin again. If that be the case, it stands to reason that if we take years in overcoming, it is a direct result of our own inadequacies and not a lack of divine help.

Dr. T, thank you for your replies as well, though you be of a different religion, we are of the same faith, that faith being in Christ.

I have my own beliefs about being saved, redeemed from this fallen state and restored to a place in God's mansions, but my real question is not how it is that we eventually return to Father, but rather, how it is that we mortals can obtain divine strength and assistance in our daily struggles.

Nevertheless, thank you all again for your replies.

[Brother Dorsey]

We all know that through the atonement, Jesus Christ opens the door of heaven (spirit world) for everyone ever born and saves us from the EFFECTS of sin and death. However our Lord tells us of the impending Judgement upon Latter-day Saints and all people of the earth. Thence if there will be a judgement we must be judged by our WORKS and be given one of the many mansions he has promised he has prepared for us otherwise he would have told us.

Good answer CAMG! I think there is another thing to remember here though...Johndoe knows what he is doing is wrong, he knows he's weak, he knows that the Lord can help him change...and he is trying, trying, trying....and that my friend is faith...exactly what the Lord asks us to have. Johndoe, fear not for the Lord knows what is in your heart, He loves you and He is giving you this trial for a purpose. Most probably to test your faith and make you stronger...who knows? The Lord's Atonement is eternal. He knows you are trying and it will be in His time when he will lift this burden from you. Stay strong in the Lord!

PS: By conquering death Jesus made it possible for all to be resurrected and live forever and we don't have to do anything to receive this FREE gift...we don't even have to believe in Christ as ALL will be resurrected and live forever (it's where you will be living that is the question). As LDS we also KNOW because of the Atonement of Christ we have been given another FREE gift.....our sins can all be washed clean by the blood of the Lamb of God as long as we believe in Him and repent of our sins. (some call this works) When we do this we accept His Atonement. Getting back to where we will be spending eternity. As you know non LDS Christians believe that only those who believe in Christ will be "saved" and all others will go to hell. We of course have been given the fullness of the Gospel and the simple truth to know that everyone will be saved and given a place of glory, even those who did not know Christ (ie: those who never heard the Gospel) and very few will be banished to hell (outer darkness, a complete separation from God). Regarding where LDS strive to spend eternity....we know we can progress and inherit all that the Father has, including godhood and the acts of this progression (priesthood/Temple ordinances) are the "works" here on Earth that the Father has given us to do. Not works so we can be "saved" because that is a FREE gift...but works to progress in the eternities

[pam]

Wow good thing I didn't call my sister to find out what is bothering her husband. Here I thought this johndoe was my BIL. Come to find out it's another john doe. Not our beloved John Doe that we all know and love. Well most of us anyway.

[Snow]

But notwithstanding this conviction, I still am as weak as anyone I know. It shames me and cuts me to the core when I give in to my weaknesses because I know what i am doing, I know how wrong it is, I know that it is contrary to happiness and I can not have the beautiful things in life while I am a patron to this evil.

Have you tried hydrocortizone?

If it were me, I stop focusing on the guilt and keep doing good things - church, service, study... if you act more Christlike, eventually you will become more Christlike.

[Maureen]

How do we apply to saving grace of Jesus Christ to ourselves?

How do we lay hold upon the enabling power of Christ's Atonement?

How does God change us, change our very hearts, so that we have no more desire to sin?

What must we do so that Christ will save us from our sins?

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

I think that when we least expect certain things to happen in life, is when they make their appearance. My advice would be to live your life the best you can. Do the things that you're good at and enjoy, and pay no attention to this thorn in your side. Be positive, be happy, be good to yourself and the people around you. Follow your nose and see where it takes you. Good luck johndoe (the 2nd)!

M.

[CrimsonKairos]

"Often times the only way to acquire a certain skill or ability in life, is to begin behaving as though you already possessed it."

-CK

"Act yourself into a new way of thinking, don't try to think yourself into a new way of acting."

-CK

[tiancum]

Surely the Lord does not like it when we sin, therefore I do not believe that he wants me to struggle with my weakness for years, I believe that he wants me to forsake my sins from this very hour and to never sin again. If that be the case, it stands to reason that if we take years in overcoming, it is a direct result of our own inadequacies and not a lack of divine help.

You are correct. He does not want us to suffer through it for years and years. he does not like it when we sin. But he lets us. Honestly, he does not want us to be hurt AT ALL. But he lets us, because he loves us, and wants us to have the gift that he earned, growth.

Yup you are right, it is a result of our own inadequacies. If we were adequate, we wouldn't have anything to overcome.

All we are given is the promise, if we come unto Him, he will make our weakness strength. He doesn't say overnight. (nephi wrote his psalm in 2 nephi 4 about a weakness that plagued him for years...his anger. it plagued him all through the wilderness, and into the promised land.)

[mouse152]

There have been some great posts! I too have and am struggling with an on-going problem. For me the greatest hope has been the blessing and trial of endurance. I know that I cannot do this on my own (John 15:5) and that I need my Savior. I know too though that His deliverance is on His schedule and not mine.

Scriptures that I refer to regularly are:

Ether 12:27: "And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that hey may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them."

IMO, My struggles and weakness are God given to enable me to become who He wants me to be. As such, they become strengths to me because they force/compel me to turn to God. A year or so ago as I was begging God for deliverance from this bondage He answered me and asked that if He removed it, would I still be faithful? Honest examination of myself produced the answer, "No." I think that is still true. I need this continual reminder that I am weak and mortal and fallible to keep me in constant contact with the One who is not.

I also like to read about Alma the Elder. He repented, taught the gospel and then this new group of converts is brought under grievous bondage.

Mosiah 23:21: "Nevertheless, the Lord seeth fit to chasten his people; yea, he trieth their patience and their faith."

Mosiah 24:13-16: They prayed about their bondage and the Lord did not deliver them but they were in bondage for YEARS. He did visit them in their afflictions and make their load light but deliverance did not come until the exhibited great faith and patience.

Also, the Anti-Nephi-Lehi. Alma 24:11: All they could do, all we can do, is repent and seek to follow God. We are guaranteed to stumbled but I think our turning back to God and continually seeking to do better is more important than the stumbling.

I also like the book "Believing Christ." I know Stephen Robinson is not a GA but I think that book has so much truth in it. Towards the end he discusses a rough convert who had WOW issues and so many others. He discusses how, over years of faithful effort, she changed and became able to attend the temple, etc. He then asks, paraphrase, "At what point was this woman eligible for the Celestial kingdom?" The answer he posits and to which I agree is the moment she had faith in Christ, repented and was baptized. Christ makes up the difference and there is no requirement to be sin free before He will apply His atoning blood. In fact, I think, that we can only be sin free because of His grace and because of His work in our life. It is a partnership and it is a lifelong process.

As to practical, "what can I DO to help my problem", I would offer a prayer journal; it has been my greatest help. I try to write/type my prayers and wait for response and write those too. In the beginning it was hard to hear His voice, but, as a friend says, "If you're praying and hear 'I love you,' why can't that be from God?!" Almost always His voice is gentleness and love, encouragement and reminders of how precious I am to Him. There are moments when I question if I am really hearing Him or my own thoughts. For these, I go back later and reread what I have written and the Holy Spirit will bear witness to me if it is from God or not. This journal has had such a positive influence on me and has helped me be more patient with myself and my shortcomings and given me greater hope.

As to my own problem, I DON'T see light at the end of the tunnel yet, but I have hope and faith that it will come. If it doesn't come in this life, I know that this problem has enabled me to have a greater relationship with God then I ever did before.

Much love and prayer,

M

Sorry this was so long!

[prisonchaplain]

And now for the questions that I would hope for answers to...

How do we apply to saving grace of Jesus Christ to ourselves?

How do we lay hold upon the enabling power of Christ's Atonement?

How does God change us, change our very hearts, so that we have no more desire to sin?

What must we do so that Christ will save us from our sins?

Although several have responded to this, in light of the request, I've chosen to offer my own perspective BEFORE reading that of others. To me, this is a personal question, looking for the experiences of others.

I'll start with the obvious. It is perhaps cliche--but it is truth. Jesus Christ has already saved us from our sins. I must start with that faith statement. I walk in both confidence and awe-filled fear of my God. I'm saved. Yet, the heart of this question is that I am also being saved.

And, sometimes, we "mature ones" fall into horrific sins. Leaders commit adultery, get addicted to porn, cheat in business--I've ssen plenty of seasoned Christians in our facility!

There is a progressive aspect to sanctification. We are becoming more like Christ. However, the line is not aalways straight, and the term "backslidden" did not come out of nowhere--but out of a need to identify what happens to Christians who get stuck in a rut of sin.

Paul needed his thorn in the flesh. Maybe we need our temptations. It may be that God trusts us with them. What we must not do is become complacent. And, there's the key. My sense is that there is no goal line to your quest. Our battle against our flesh-nature will continue. Sometimes old battles we thought we'd won resurface.

John, you--and most of us know what to do. We tire of the battle, and we yearn for short cuts. There are none. Continue in prayer, in fasting, in meditation, in sacrificial giving, and in denying your wants in favor of your righteousness.

Lean on your brothers and sisters in the faith. Never give in--dig in. The other advice, more practical in nature, have a weekly day of rest, and take care--nutrition, exercise, and vacations. Sometimes we are weak because we neglect our temples (bodies).

No easy answers. But the battle is shared. :-)

[zach_doe]

Thank you all for your replies. There has been a lot of good advice and direction given, I imagine i will read over this thread from time to time when things get tough, thanks again all.

[Traveler]

John Doe: Your post is an important post and I think many do not understand what is going on. I posted in another thread concerning pornography that addictions are advanced influences from the most elite unclean spirits. There are no silver bullets, no 12 step programs, no giving yourself to Christ, no blessing – nothing that will by itself end an addiction. Few realize the consequence of giving one’s soul to spiritual darkness for self gratification.

But take heart all is not lost. I regret that some of the advice you have been given about Christ is not really true. He will not change you or take away your desires or your agency which is the expression of your desires.

G-d will not do for you what you are capable of doing yourself. Deliverance comes by the power and grace of G-d – AFTER all you can do.

May I suggest some things you can do:

1. Seek out trusted friends and or family for support.

2. Look for spiritual strength both within yourself and your support.

3. Tiancum post is golden – from now on focus on your success. Realize that in pro baseball that a batting average of 400 is exceptional and great. If you slip do not think of it as a failure – unless you give up and quit. Quitting is the failure and quitting to fight an addiction is Satan’s victory and you will belong to him.

4. The next step to evil is always self indulgence – the next step to righteousness is always discipline of self sacrifice. Prayer and scripture study is good and nice but service to others and the giving of self is the more excellent way (see 1Cor chapter 13).

5. Have faith in Christ – the real Christ. This faith will make you whole. Christ can and will deliver all – for as all die all will be made alive in Christ. But it is your faith in Christ that will make you whole and end your addiction. And faith my friend is an action word. If you have faith that vegetables provides necessary nourishment then you will eat vegetables – you will not just believe in vegetables, dream of vegetables, think of vegetables because faith requires action. And as we all know if you do not eat vegetables you cannot gain any nourishment from them regardless of what you believe about them.

As I live and you need support, I pledge that I will assist you in you discipline of self sacrifice (which is the only true sacrifice).

The Traveler

[cmcguiga]

Hi CAMG,

You see Jesus' work differently. Jesus make it possible for "whosoever believeth in him" to be saved-not all people will be. Not everybody ever born will be with him. True belief in him changes behavior but that is not what saves or doesn't.

What about those who did not get a chance to hear the gospel in this life and accept Jesus as their personal Savior. Are they damned? according to your words they are.

Salvation and exaltation are two different things but both work together for one purpose and that is "to bring to pass the immortality (salvation through Christ) and eternel (exalted, by works) life of man."

Paul stated in 2 Cor 12:2

aI knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

You see different degrees of heaven. (many mansions)

[snipe123]

Hi all,

I am currently struggling with some major weaknesses in my life and am finding it very difficult to overcome. What makes things worse, is the fact that I am wholly converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ, I have a testimony, I love the gospel with a passion, it is who I am.

But notwithstanding this conviction, I still am as weak as anyone I know. It shames me and cuts me to the core when I give in to my weaknesses because I know what i am doing, I know how wrong it is, I know that it is contrary to happiness and I can not have the beautiful things in life while I am a patron to this evil.

Now so far this post probably looks like it belongs in the Advice forum, but I wanted to stick it into this gospel discussion forum because I want more than advice, I want the doctrines and principles of Christ to assist me in overcoming.

I know that in and of myself, I can not overcome. I've tried, countless times, to white knuckle it and just push forward with sheer will power, hoping that i could just finally overcome. Result... failure.

Now here is the hard part... I've also tried with everything I am to submit to God, to plead for Christ to remove it from me, to study the atonement, to rely upon Christ for deliverance, to read scriptures every day and to pray on my knees both night and morning. I have done all of these things, hoping and pleading that i would be set free. Result... failure.

This breaks my heart, it breaks my will, and it hurts like nothing else. I have never been one to doubt, but recently, it has been difficult to keep doubt from creeping in.

If Christ truly can take our burdens from us, If he truly can set us free if we just do what he has asked... why hasn't it worked for me? I know that the Lord never violates his agreements, I know he never fails to uphold his end, and so I know that whatever the problem is, it is on my end and not His.

And now for the questions that I would hope for answers to...

How do we apply to saving grace of Jesus Christ to ourselves?

How do we lay hold upon the enabling power of Christ's Atonement?

How does God change us, change our very hearts, so that we have no more desire to sin?

What must we do so that Christ will save us from our sins?

Now, these may seem like common questions, and no doubt there are quick and easy answers to them. But thats not what I'm looking for, I don't want the cliche response that is so common. But rather, truly think about these questions, let them sink, and hopefully someone, anyone, will be able to help.

Thank you all for your time in reading this, I appreciate any help or advice that i can get, thank you.

John,

Can you share what it is that you feel so bad about, or do you not think it would be appropriate for this forum? Perhaps others have overcome the same issues?

For now, I would like to share a few things...I read this book after basically being inactive for three years: http://deseretbook.com/store/product?sku=4961117

It is very small and takes about 45 minutes to read it, but it completely changed my life and caused me to finally alter course and return to the church...Seems ridiculous that such a small book with a common enough title could do that...The title sounds all mushy gooshy and I used to avoid such things, but trust me, you will learn some very important lessons...I credit the book with the following concepts I want to share with you in the hopes that you might find them helpful:

So you may remember how the evening was divided up in New Testament times into 4 hours, or “watches” as they were called…So the point that this little book was trying to make sort of relates to that…the book says that God is a “Fourth Watch” God and that we tend to see and want him to be a “First Watch” God…Perhaps the following account from the New Testament can illustrate what is meant by that term. They are two accounts of the same story, but each account adds a significant detail that the other leaves out, so I copied them both so I can discuss them.

John Chapter 6

15 ¶ When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

16 And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea,

17 And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them.

18 And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.

19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were aafraid.

20 But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid.

21 Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.

So everyone knows this story and we always focus on the part about Jesus walking on water, and Peter going out on the water to meet him and he loses faith etc…but what is really significant about this story is what it reveals about the character of God. So in John we just read that Jesus left the apostles in the boat alone so that he could go up to the mountain and pray…? He left the apostles? Didn’t he know the storm was coming? Didn’t he notice the drop in temperature, the ominous clouds on the horizon, and the increasing wind? Did he really not see their impending doom?

So a “great wind” whips up, and the sea (waves) rise and the disciples rowed five and twenty, or thirty furlongs…How far is that exactly…oh, just the length of about 75 football fields!!!!! I don’t know if you have done much rowing in your life, but rowing the length of one football field is exhausting, let alone 75! So that’s all interesting and everything, but what does Mark add to the story?

Mark Chapter 6

46 And when he had asent them away, he departed into a mountain to pray.

Jesus sent them into the sea, in the face of an impending storm????

47 And when even was come, the ship was in the midst of the sea, and he alone on the land.

48 And he saw them toiling in rowing; for the wind was contrary unto them: and about the fourth watch of the night he cometh unto them, walking upon the sea, and would have passed by them.

Okay, so this is really messed up…not only did they row the length of 75 football fields, they did it against the wind! Add to that, the fact that Jesus watched them toiling along the whole way and waited until the 4th watch to come out to them and give them aid…plus he would have passed right by them unless they had suppressed their fear and cried out to him…

49 But when they saw him walking upon the sea, they supposed it had been a spirit, and cried out:

50 For they all saw him, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer: it is I; be not afraid.

So what can we learn from this story…I am quite certain, that the entire time the apostles rowed they either grumbled the whole time about why Jesus wasn’t there, or they were praying he would show up now! They were probably physically exhausted and terrified that they would drown in the sea…then along comes Jesus, calms the sea and upbraids Peter for doubting…So what does this reveal about the character of God, our character as mortals, and the character God expects us to develop?

1) God is a 4th Watch God. In other words he often waits until the 4th watch, after we have toiled and strived and cried and wailed, until he finally comes to rescue us.

2) We expect God to be a 1st Watch God. We want him to come and take away our burdens now, before it gets to painful and difficult.

3)We must accept that the God we worship is a 4th Watch God, and not give up when he does not show up in the 1st 2nd or 3rd watch.

4)The burden that we carry in the meantime will make us stronger, will stretch the borders of our limitations and humble us the moment God takes over and relieves our burdens at that very moment (that He alone knows) when we can take no more.

5)If the trials of this life were anything less, there would be no need for this mortal existence, God would do everything for us, and we would not grow and develop into the strong beings that we are.

6)God expects us to worship and wait upon him as a 4th watch God, and it is our greatest trials, if endured, that will teach us this lesson the best.

7)God will not allow us to drown in the depths of our trials if we remove fear and doubt and cry out to him. We will toil to be sure, but not drown.

8)When God does offer relief, it is immediate.

9)There are cases where God is a 1st Watch God and it is in the area of forgiving the penitent.( a discussion for another time perhaps)

10)If we, in our lives have abandoned God because he did not come to us in the first hour, we can correct our thinking, and thus endure the trials we face with greater strength knowing that while God has not come yet, if we endure a little longer, surely he will come before we are overcome. This knowledge can be our greatest strength when we face our trials and wait upon our Lord.

The author also shared a story about his neglectful father that he had while growing up, and how his father ignored him and was cruel to him…the author prayed for years not only to forgive him, but to understand why his Father behaved this way, and how he could live and treat his son that way and not have joy in his family…he was bitter and resentful that the Lord would not help him understand that even later in life his Dad was distant and detached…so years go by and one day the author is playing with his own son and having a wonderful time and in a quite moment the spirit whispered to him…”which would you rather be? A son without a Father, or a Father without a son?” In that moment, after years of trying to understand and forgive, the Lord revealed to him a way for him to have compassion and empathy for the loss his Dad had suffered as a result of his choices…It was only after having a son himself, that he could truly understand the joys and pains of a father…the point I got from that story is that we can really miss the point of many of our trials if we cease to “wait upon God” for an answer…we cannot know how God will answer or in what way, but when he does answer, we can be sure that it will be the best answer…one we perhaps could not understand in any other way…

It would seem to me that this experience might help you to understand why God will let you toil along until there is a place in your life for him to drive home a particular lesson...

So I don’t know what else to say, other than how this realization effected me personally…I looked back on my decisions to walk away from the church in the past in a different light, and wonder now if I had endured my trials just a little longer how things would have turned out…I can’t draw conclusions for you…but I hope you will ponder this concept…I can think of lots of scriptures and people in the scriptures that drive this point home…it’s annoying to be sure…I want God to come in the 1st watch, but the reality is that he usually doesn’t…The fact that he does not, is meant to increase our faith, patience, and strength…I also submit to you that as long as you strive to overcome whatever it is your struggling with, in the moment where it seems like you just can't do anymore, God will step in and not let you drown...since learing this lesson, that has been the case for me and the sailing has seemed a lot smoother...:)

[Brother Dorsey]

<div class='quotemain'>

Hi all,

I am currently struggling with some major weaknesses in my life and am finding it very difficult to overcome. What makes things worse, is the fact that I am wholly converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ, I have a testimony, I love the gospel with a passion, it is who I am.

But notwithstanding this conviction, I still am as weak as anyone I know. It shames me and cuts me to the core when I give in to my weaknesses because I know what i am doing, I know how wrong it is, I know that it is contrary to happiness and I can not have the beautiful things in life while I am a patron to this evil.

Now so far this post probably looks like it belongs in the Advice forum, but I wanted to stick it into this gospel discussion forum because I want more than advice, I want the doctrines and principles of Christ to assist me in overcoming.

I know that in and of myself, I can not overcome. I've tried, countless times, to white knuckle it and just push forward with sheer will power, hoping that i could just finally overcome. Result... failure.

Now here is the hard part... I've also tried with everything I am to submit to God, to plead for Christ to remove it from me, to study the atonement, to rely upon Christ for deliverance, to read scriptures every day and to pray on my knees both night and morning. I have done all of these things, hoping and pleading that i would be set free. Result... failure.

This breaks my heart, it breaks my will, and it hurts like nothing else. I have never been one to doubt, but recently, it has been difficult to keep doubt from creeping in.

If Christ truly can take our burdens from us, If he truly can set us free if we just do what he has asked... why hasn't it worked for me? I know that the Lord never violates his agreements, I know he never fails to uphold his end, and so I know that whatever the problem is, it is on my end and not His.

And now for the questions that I would hope for answers to...

How do we apply to saving grace of Jesus Christ to ourselves?

How do we lay hold upon the enabling power of Christ's Atonement?

How does God change us, change our very hearts, so that we have no more desire to sin?

What must we do so that Christ will save us from our sins?

Now, these may seem like common questions, and no doubt there are quick and easy answers to them. But thats not what I'm looking for, I don't want the cliche response that is so common. But rather, truly think about these questions, let them sink, and hopefully someone, anyone, will be able to help.

Thank you all for your time in reading this, I appreciate any help or advice that i can get, thank you.

John,

Can you share what it is that you feel so bad about, or do you not think it would be appropriate for this forum? Perhaps others have overcome the same issues?

For now, I would like to share a few things...I read this book after basically being inactive for three years: http://deseretbook.com/store/product?sku=4961117

It is very small and takes about 45 minutes to read it, but it completely changed my life and caused me to finally alter course and return to the church...Seems ridiculous that such a small book with a common enough title could do that...The title sounds all mushy gooshy and I used to avoid such things, but trust me, you will learn some very important lessons...I credit the book with the following concepts I want to share with you in the hopes that you might find them helpful:

So you may remember how the evening was divided up in New Testament times into 4 hours, or “watches” as they were called…So the point that this little book was trying to make sort of relates to that…the book says that God is a “Fourth Watch” God and that we tend to see and want him to be a “First Watch” God…Perhaps the following account from the New Testament can illustrate what is meant by that term. They are two accounts of the same story, but each account adds a significant detail that the other leaves out, so I copied them both so I can discuss them.

John Chapter 6

15 ¶ When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

16 And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea,

17 And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them.

18 And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.

19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were aafraid.

20 But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid.

21 Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.

So everyone knows this story and we always focus on the part about Jesus walking on water, and Peter going out on the water to meet him and he loses faith etc…but what is really significant about this story is what it reveals about the character of God. So in John we just read that Jesus left the apostles in the boat alone so that he could go up to the mountain and pray…? He left the apostles? Didn’t he know the storm was coming? Didn’t he notice the drop in temperature, the ominous clouds on the horizon, and the increasing wind? Did he really not see their impending doom?

So a “great wind” whips up, and the sea (waves) rise and the disciples rowed five and twenty, or thirty furlongs…How far is that exactly…oh, just the length of about 75 football fields!!!!! I don’t know if you have done much rowing in your life, but rowing the length of one football field is exhausting, let alone 75! So that’s all interesting and everything, but what does Mark add to the story?

Mark Chapter 6

46 And when he had asent them away, he departed into a mountain to pray.

Jesus sent them into the sea, in the face of an impending storm????

47 And when even was come, the ship was in the midst of the sea, and he alone on the land.

48 And he saw them toiling in rowing; for the wind was contrary unto them: and about the fourth watch of the night he cometh unto them, walking upon the sea, and would have passed by them.

Okay, so this is really messed up…not only did they row the length of 75 football fields, they did it against the wind! Add to that, the fact that Jesus watched them toiling along the whole way and waited until the 4th watch to come out to them and give them aid…plus he would have passed right by them unless they had suppressed their fear and cried out to him…

49 But when they saw him walking upon the sea, they supposed it had been a spirit, and cried out:

50 For they all saw him, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer: it is I; be not afraid.

So what can we learn from this story…I am quite certain, that the entire time the apostles rowed they either grumbled the whole time about why Jesus wasn’t there, or they were praying he would show up now! They were probably physically exhausted and terrified that they would drown in the sea…then along comes Jesus, calms the sea and upbraids Peter for doubting…So what does this reveal about the character of God, our character as mortals, and the character God expects us to develop?

1) God is a 4th Watch God. In other words he often waits until the 4th watch, after we have toiled and strived and cried and wailed, until he finally comes to rescue us.

2) We expect God to be a 1st Watch God. We want him to come and take away our burdens now, before it gets to painful and difficult.

3)We must accept that the God we worship is a 4th Watch God, and not give up when he does not show up in the 1st 2nd or 3rd watch.

4)The burden that we carry in the meantime will make us stronger, will stretch the borders of our limitations and humble us the moment God takes over and relieves our burdens at that very moment (that He alone knows) when we can take no more.

5)If the trials of this life were anything less, there would be no need for this mortal existence, God would do everything for us, and we would not grow and develop into the strong beings that we are.

6)God expects us to worship and wait upon him as a 4th watch God, and it is our greatest trials, if endured, that will teach us this lesson the best.

7)God will not allow us to drown in the depths of our trials if we remove fear and doubt and cry out to him. We will toil to be sure, but not drown.

8)When God does offer relief, it is immediate.

9)There are cases where God is a 1st Watch God and it is in the area of forgiving the penitent.( a discussion for another time perhaps)

10)If we, in our lives have abandoned God because he did not come to us in the first hour, we can correct our thinking, and thus endure the trials we face with greater strength knowing that while God has not come yet, if we endure a little longer, surely he will come before we are overcome. This knowledge can be our greatest strength when we face our trials and wait upon our Lord.

The author also shared a story about his neglectful father that he had while growing up, and how his father ignored him and was cruel to him…the author prayed for years not only to forgive him, but to understand why his Father behaved this way, and how he could live and treat his son that way and not have joy in his family…he was bitter and resentful that the Lord would not help him understand that even later in life his Dad was distant and detached…so years go by and one day the author is playing with his own son and having a wonderful time and in a quite moment the spirit whispered to him…”which would you rather be? A son without a Father, or a Father without a son?” In that moment, after years of trying to understand and forgive, the Lord revealed to him a way for him to have compassion and empathy for the loss his Dad had suffered as a result of his choices…It was only after having a son himself, that he could truly understand the joys and pains of a father…the point I got from that story is that we can really miss the point of many of our trials if we cease to “wait upon God” for an answer…we cannot know how God will answer or in what way, but when he does answer, we can be sure that it will be the best answer…one we perhaps could not understand in any other way…

It would seem to me that this experience might help you to understand why God will let you toil along until there is a place in your life for him to drive home a particular lesson...

So I don’t know what else to say, other than how this realization effected me personally…I looked back on my decisions to walk away from the church in the past in a different light, and wonder now if I had endured my trials just a little longer how things would have turned out…I can’t draw conclusions for you…but I hope you will ponder this concept…I can think of lots of scriptures and people in the scriptures that drive this point home…it’s annoying to be sure…I want God to come in the 1st watch, but the reality is that he usually doesn’t…The fact that he does not, is meant to increase our faith, patience, and strength…I also submit to you that as long as you strive to overcome whatever it is your struggling with, in the moment where it seems like you just can't do anymore, God will step in and not let you drown...since learing this lesson, that has been the case for me and the sailing has seemed a lot smoother...:)

That was wonderful Issac....I have that book but have not yet read it....it is next in line! Thanks!