Why was Jesus perfect?

[Sunday21]

Dear Hubbers,

Why was Jesus perfect? I assumed that he remembered his life before the veil, to some extent. Is this not true? Was Jesus perfect because He had advanced to near/absolute perfection in the previous life? Was Jesus sinless as a small child?

So did Jesus achieve perfection in the preexistsnce? ? I clearly did not achieve perfection in the prexistence! I suspect that I was an underachiever! How can we be like Jesus if He was already perfect as He entered mortality? 

Edited May 31, 2017 by Sunday21

[Blueskye2]

56 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Why was Jesus perfect? 

Because Jesus is God.

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

Why was Jesus perfect?

Because He never faltered on His walk with the Father.  He was not forced to always walk with Him (as I've heard some other Christian denominations proclaim), but choose to.  

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

I assumed that he remembered his life before the veil, to some extent. Is this not true?

Not true.  He learned line upon line like everyone else (I think there's a D&C verse about this, but don't recall off the top of my lazy head right now).  He was an incredibly better pupil than the rest of us.  

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

Was Jesus perfect because He had advanced to near/absolute perfection in the previous life?

I'm not sure what you're asking here.  Christ's perfection and righteousness before mortal birth was a reflection of His character/choices/agency, and those do carry through into mortal life and afterwards.  

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

Was Jesus sinless as a small child?

Yes.

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

So did Jesus achieve perfection in the preexistsnce? ? 

Was He unwavering diligent and one with the Father then?  Yes.  Was His journey complete?  No.  For starters He lacked a physical body.

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

 I clearly did not achieve perfection in the prexistence! 

Well, I daresay you have company in that club!  Like 15+ billion people keeping you company, including me.

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

 How can we be like Jesus if He was already perfect as He entered mortality? 

By following Him.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[Fether]

19 minutes ago, Blueskye2 said:

Because Jesus is God.

@Sunday21

this is true... but you probably want a more complete.

if you read Jesus the Christ chap. 10, it reveals a lot about what Christ knew and didn't know about his divine destiny. When he came to Earth, he did not have recollection of pre-mortal life but rather had perfect faith in all things and was perfectly resistant to temptation (though he did still experience it).

[seashmore]

37 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Because He never faltered on His walk with the Father.  He was not forced to always walk with Him (as I've heard some other Christian denominations proclaim), but choose to.  

Not true.  He learned line upon line like everyone else (I think there's a D&C verse about this, but don't recall off the top of my lazy head right now).  He was an incredibly better pupil than the rest of us.  

I'm not sure what you're asking here.  Christ's perfection and righteousness before mortal birth was a reflection of His character/choices/agency, and those do carry through into mortal life and afterwards.  

Yes.

Was He unwavering diligent and one with the Father then?  Yes.  Was His journey complete?  No.  For starters He lacked a physical body.

Well, I daresay you have company in that club!  Like 15+ billion people keeping you company, including me.

By following Him.

All of the above.

Also, something I remember learning in Institute:

the instruction to become perfect is given twice in scripture, once in the NT and once in the BoM. In the former, he says, "even as my father." In the latter, he says, "even as I am." What's the difference? Resurrection. Even Christ's perfection was not completely complete until he received his resurrected body. 

Was he perfectly obedient before that? Absolutely. Are we to be perfectly obedient? Well, we're supposed to try, and then utilize the Atonement when we fall short.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

Dear Hubbers,

Why was Jesus perfect? I assumed that he remembered his life before the veil, to some extent. Is this not true? Was Jesus perfect because He had advanced to near/absolute perfection in the previous life? Was Jesus sinless as a small child?

So did Jesus achieve perfection in the preexistsnce? ? I clearly did not achieve perfection in the prexistence! I suspect that I was an underachiever! How can we be like Jesus if He was already perfect as He entered mortality? 

I think the principle of "grace" covers these questions.

D&C 93:11-14 teaches us that He received grace for grace until He received a fulness of grace and truth, which fulness may be rendered to be "perfection". Because all truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it (verse 30), His fulness was manifest differently in the various spheres of His existence. For example, in the pre-mortal sphere, His fulness enabled Him to make all things. In the mortal sphere, having a body, to overcome sin and death. In the resurrection, to judge.

I'd say He was perfect in each sphere because He submitted Himself to the will of the Father completely as required in each sphere. Perhaps His status as the Firstborn is an indicator that He accomplished these advancements sooner than the rest of us in each sphere. But the same principle of grace also applies to us, and we can rely on Him who never had to repent as we do. So through grace we can apply our will and agency to strive to be like, and eventually become like Jesus no matter how far behind Him we may be, either in pre-mortal attainments or mortal sin.

With regards to remembering the pre-mortal life, I think He was subject to the veil as we are, and may have gained more insight than we do. All children are sinless in that they are not accountable, but just as each child has a personality reflective of his spirit and pre-mortal standing, and that we can discern through their behavior, I believe His was fully godlike.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

Dear Hubbers,

Why was Jesus perfect? I assumed that he remembered his life before the veil, to some extent. Is this not true? Was Jesus perfect because He had advanced to near/absolute perfection in the previous life? Was Jesus sinless as a small child?

So did Jesus achieve perfection in the preexistsnce? ? I clearly did not achieve perfection in the prexistence! I suspect that I was an underachiever! How can we be like Jesus if He was already perfect as He entered mortality? 

There are different things that can be understood from the term perfect.  Anciently the primary meaning of perfect is best understood as complete.  In mathematics we would say "necessary and sufficient" .  From our modern culture we want to think in terms of flawless and having never flawed.  But I believe such thinking is incorrect.  When we refer to someone as perfect it does not mean that they have never sinned - but rather that they are without sin. Whitch is the same as one that has repented of their sins and paid the price the price of the sin meaning the sin has been justly redeemed.

Concerning the pre-existence - all that kept their first estate were perfect in their place.  Please note that being perfect doesn't mean equal (see Abraham chapter 3).  

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

Why was Jesus perfect? I assumed that he remembered his life before the veil, to some extent. Is this not true? Was Jesus perfect because He had advanced to near/absolute perfection in the previous life? Was Jesus sinless as a small child?

So did Jesus achieve perfection in the preexistsnce? ? I clearly did not achieve perfection in the prexistence! I suspect that I was an underachiever! How can we be like Jesus if He was already perfect as He entered mortality? 

Perfect means two different things when discussing the Savior.

1) Absolutely obedient to all of God's commands.
2) Complete, mature, fully developed.

The first, He had down -- from the get go.  The second, He had to achieve like the rest of us.  Why?  Because as God recognized there were some more intelligent and less intelligent.  Jesus was the most intelligent of us all.

"Intelligent": Full of light and knowledge.

We are NOT like Jesus. We cannot "be" like Jesus.  We can "become" like Jesus.  That is, it is a process.  It will be something we achieve in eternity.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Guest

[Sunday21]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I think the principle of "grace" covers these questions.

D&C 93:11-14 teaches us that He received grace for grace until He received a fulness of grace and truth, which fulness may be rendered to be "perfection". Because all truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it (verse 30), His fulness was manifest differently in the various spheres of His existence. For example, in the pre-mortal sphere, His fulness enabled Him to make all things. In the mortal sphere, having a body, to overcome sin and death. In the resurrection, to judge.

I'd say He was perfect in each sphere because He submitted Himself to the will of the Father completely as required in each sphere. Perhaps His status as the Firstborn is an indicator that He accomplished these advancements sooner than the rest of us in each sphere. But the same principle of grace also applies to us, and we can rely on Him who never had to repent as we do. So through grace we can apply our will and agency to strive to be like, and eventually become like Jesus no matter how far behind Him we may be, either in pre-mortal attainments or mortal sin.

With regards to remembering the pre-mortal life, I think He was subject to the veil as we are, and may have gained more insight than we do. All children are sinless in that they are not accountable, but just as each child has a personality reflective of his spirit and pre-mortal standing, and that we can discern through their behavior, I believe His was fully godlike.

So ...

D&C 93:11-14 teaches us that He received grace for grace until He received a fulness of grace and truth, which fulness may be rendered to be "perfection". Because all truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it (verse 30), His fulness was manifest differently in the various spheres of His existence. For example, in the pre-mortal sphere, His fulness enabled Him to make all things. In the mortal sphere, having a body, to overcome sin and death. In the resurrection, to judge. [I really can't follow this at all. No idea.}

I'd say He was perfect in each sphere because He submitted Himself to the will of the Father completely as required in each sphere. [So every time, Father said do this, Jesus did it? So He never said, oh I think I will modify the instructions a bit? So Jesus has quite a head start on me!] Perhaps His status as the Firstborn is an indicator that He accomplished these advancements sooner than the rest of us in each sphere. But the same principle of grace also applies to us, and we can rely on Him who never had to repent as we do. [Rely on Him in what way? If He was sinless in every sphere. I do not think that he knows what I am going through. Also if He is a genius then He really does not know what I am going through!} So through grace [What do we mean by grace? our Free agency? ] we can apply our will and agency to strive to be like, and eventually become like Jesus no matter how far behind Him we may be, either in pre-mortal attainments or mortal sin. [So No matter where you are, keep trying?]

[anatess2]

4 hours ago, Blueskye2 said:

Because Jesus is God.

Perfect answer.  Take the internet.  It's yours.

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

We are NOT like Jesus. We cannot "be" like Jesus.  We can "become" like Jesus.  That is, it is a process.  It will be something we achieve in eternity.

In mortality, I have an older brother that is a certified genius with a photographic memory.  Unfortunately for me we look very much alike and many have thought we were identical twins.  We served in the same army reserve unit and in uniform we could not be distinguished.   We also worked in the same field of automation, robotics and artificial intelligence but his expertise is different from me.  He gravitated more towards management and I towards the nuts and bolts of technical applications.

If someone was to talk with our wives, they would say that my brother and I are NOT the same and are not alike.  If you were to talk to someone at the temple – they would say that we are the same and impossible to distinguish one from the other. 

Why am I posing about my brother?  Because the concept of me being like him or that we are not alike is a most ambiguous view point and can be misleading.  Concerning Jesus; I may post that we ARE like Jesus – and someone else argue that we are NOT like Jesus.  We could argue about this through many posts – each making accurate and applicable points but unable to come to a consensus.  Being like Jesus does not mean being Jesus.

We can suffer because of the sins of others – like Jesus did but we cannot suffer for all sins like Jesus did.  We can love as Jesus loves but our love will never be equal to Jesus’ love.  We can perform miracles like Jesus but we will never be the miracle that Jesus is.  Many distractors to the LDS understanding of the Doctrine of the Plan of Salvation will say we are not and cannot be like Jesus.  Even suggesting that Satan tried to be like Jesus and was cast out (evil) for trying it.  Is Jesus and Satan alike?  Some are most upset even at the suggestion that they had the same father – but the reality is that they did have the same father.  Obviously, they do not have the same destiny but they are so much alike that they could of.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

23 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Perfect answer.  Take the internet.  It's yours.

 

Are you implying that the answer given was more like an answer from Jesus or Al Gore?

 

I am so sorry and must apologize to anatess2 but I just could not pass up this opportunity. 

 

The Traveler

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

So ...

D&C 93:11-14 teaches us that He received grace for grace until He received a fulness of grace and truth, which fulness may be rendered to be "perfection". Because all truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it (verse 30), His fulness was manifest differently in the various spheres of His existence. For example, in the pre-mortal sphere, His fulness enabled Him to make all things. In the mortal sphere, having a body, to overcome sin and death. In the resurrection, to judge. [I really can't follow this at all. No idea.}

I'd say He was perfect in each sphere because He submitted Himself to the will of the Father completely as required in each sphere. [So every time, Father said do this, Jesus did it? So He never said, oh I think I will modify the instructions a bit? So Jesus has quite a head start on me!] Perhaps His status as the Firstborn is an indicator that He accomplished these advancements sooner than the rest of us in each sphere. But the same principle of grace also applies to us, and we can rely on Him who never had to repent as we do. [Rely on Him in what way? If He was sinless in every sphere. I do not think that he knows what I am going through. Also if He is a genius then He really does not know what I am going through!} So through grace [What do we mean by grace? our Free agency? ] we can apply our will and agency to strive to be like, and eventually become like Jesus no matter how far behind Him we may be, either in pre-mortal attainments or mortal sin. [So No matter where you are, keep trying?]

Let’s see if I can explain it another way:

D&C 93:30 says, “All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.” We are taught and choose to obey truth within the sphere in which we (and the truth) are placed. The pre-mortal existence is one sphere. The mortal existence is another sphere. The post-mortal kingdoms of glory are other spheres with their bounds and conditions (D&C 88:38).

In each these spheres, or estates, or stages of existence, there are corresponding truths that we learn and choose to obey. Jesus learned and obeyed in such a way that He was the Firsrtborn in the pre-mortal life, the Only Begotten in the mortal life, the Firstfruit in the resurrection, and so on as King in the immortal kingdoms.

His being the Firstborn means He received a fulness of grace (the possession of truth) available and attainable in the pre-mortal world and was assigned to be the Only Begotten; in the flesh, He received a fulness of truth available in the mortal world and overcame sin and death and thus became the Firstfruit; in the resurrection or in ascending to the Father He received a fulness or eternal truth so as to become the King, and so on. Even Jesus needed to progress along the way.

Yes, I believe Jesus progressed rfom the beginning, without hesitation. Abraham 3:18-19 helps us see that our relative “slowness” to progress is not necessarily a negative since we all had no beginning and will have no end: “…if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal. And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.” Verse 5 gives us an idea that those who stay closer to the Father move more slowly than those who have the faith to become more independent, and so He places them in a sphere that moves things along faster until we return to His presence.

I believe Jesus received His grace from the Father, and we receive it from Jesus.

From Mosiah 3:7 we learn that Jesus knew the developmental stages of life from infancy to adulthood, so He knows what we go through. He knew temptation, so He knows what that is like for each of us. He also paid the penalty of sin (in the Garden of Gethsemane), so He know what condemnation feels like. He was separated from the presence of God (in His final moments on the cross) so He knows what spiritual death is like. “And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.” Yet he overcame these things, so we indeed can rely on Him to show us the way and help us along. But read the whole chapter! It’s good!

Yes, no matter where you are, have faith, which is what promotes hope and charity and keeps you trying. Because I cannot do it justice, here is a great resource on the subject of grace: https://www.lds.org/topics/grace?lang=eng

[Anddenex]

I am going to make this real easy @Sunday21, because God said so.

This though, in all seriousness, is one question I would love to understand more, because we know he grew grace for grace and in light of this knowledge that is even more impressive

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

So Jesus has quite a head start on me!

You think?

[The Folk Prophet]

3 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

I do not think that he knows what I am going through.

He does because A) He took it upon himself in the Garden of Gethsemene and B) He is God. He knows and sees all.

3 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

What do we mean by grace? our Free agency? 

Jesus suffered for our sins so we would not have to if we repent. Because of Him we can exercise our agency to repent. Because of this we may be made perfect. Because of this we may become like Him. This is grace.

3 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

So No matter where you are, keep trying?

This, imo, pretty much sums up faith.

[Sunday21]

1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

I am going to make this real easy @Sunday21, because God said so.

This though, in all seriousness, is one question I would love to understand more, because we know he grew grace for grace and in light of this knowledge that is even more impressive

What does "grace for grace" mean?

[Sunday21]

@CV75 Thank you! So Heavenly Father and Jesus were perfect during their lifetimes. This perfection occurred because they were both more intelligent and more obedient in a previous life and thus took these characteristics into the next life. They were not like us, that is imperfect, but like us, they faced the same difficulties eg. were tired, thirsty, tempted but being perfect they did not yield. Thanks!

Edited May 31, 2017 by Sunday21

[zil]

5 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

What does "grace for grace" mean?

Sunday, just to facilitate any responses, have you read the Bible Dictionary entry on Grace at the link above?

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/grace

[Anddenex]

3 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

What does "grace for grace" mean?

Here is the scripture, D&C 93: 11-12, "And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us.

12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;"

He would have been learning line-upon-line, precept-upon-precept, and here-a-little according to the will of Him who sent him. This opens up a lot of questions. Think of D&C and the commandment for parents to teach their children and who the sin falls upon. Mary and Heavenly Father are responsible for the teaching of Jesus Christ. When did our Father in Heaven begin the instruction with Christ? We know at an early age he was already about his Father's business, even to the shock and misunderstanding of Mary.

Heavenly Father would have been teaching Christ his work, his duty, and what he was to accomplish. He waxed strong in the Spirit and was never without the Spirit and his Father's influence. How different would our lives be if we sought the Father's will like Christ?

This is my limited knowledge of the subject, question.

[Sunday21]

@Anddenex @zil "This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. "

Okay so grace is the power of God. So grace for grace is Heavenly Father teaching Jesus Christ.

Thanks! Mormon theology is very different that I thought with respect to Heavenly Father and Christ. I thought they both were imperfect mortals at some point and made mistakes and were forgiven. Thanks!

[CV75]

16 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

@CV75 Thank you! So Heavenly Father and Jesus were perfect during their lifetimes. This perfection occurred because they were both more intelligent and more obedient in a previous life and thus took these characteristics into the next life. They were not like us, that is imperfect, but like us, they faced the same difficulties eg. were tired, thirsty, tempted but being perfect they did not yield. Thanks!

"Perfect" is a funny word. Jesus was perfect during His mortal lifetime as the scriptures explain. We can be as perfect in this life as we are expected to be given our circumstances, and Jesus commanded us to be perfect and to become perfect (as the scriptures explain). We cannot do this without Jesus no more than he could do it without the Father.

We do not know much about the details of the Father's mortal life, but He certainly is perfect now. Jesus did what He saw the Father do, but this may be in the same vein as seeing and suffering our trials and tribulations. The Father did become perfect though, and this is what Jesus did and what He enables us to do.

[Sunday21]

@CV75

@Anddenex

@Carborendum

@seashmore

@zil

@Jane_Doe

Thank you everyone! I have missed several steps in Mormon theology. Had some quite erroneous misperceptions! This is like the time I found out that Jesus was the god of the Old Testament! Thanks everyone!

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

@CV75

@Anddenex

@Carborendum

@seashmore

@zil

@Jane_Doe

Thank you everyone! I have missed several steps in Mormon theology. Had some quite erroneous misperceptions! This is like the time I found out that Jesus was the god of the Old Testament! Thanks everyone!

Just keep at it!