Mad at Modesty

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, Dillon said:

The point is a woman wants a man to look, its why she is dressed that way.  She wants the attention.

Your telepathy is failing you horribly. 

1 hour ago, Dillon said:

No woman, ever, has tried on clothes and said "does this outfit make me invisible, does it make me look plain so no one will notice me?"

Actually I have said that exact thing.  And some men do still stare.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[Midwest LDS]

Also as I've previously stated I believe girls and boys should be taught modesty clearly with a discussion about how boys and girls are affected differently by the Law of Chastity. If there's one thing I would say we as members of the church could do better at it's having open and frank discussions with our youth about the Law of Chastity. I think we are improving but it does a disservice to our youth not to be clear about bilogical differences as @Carborendum suggests. My main point is not against modesty, but how we go about teaching it to our young men and how to deal with their temptations.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Midwest LDS

[anatess2]

10 minutes ago, Dillon said:

No woman, ever, has tried on clothes and said "does this outfit make me invisible, does it make me look plain so no one will notice me?"

Dillon, I'm just gonna use this as another advisement to you.  This generalization is why you get in trouble.  You really need to try to learn better communication skills.  Hyperbole has its place.  It can be very effective.  But this particular instance is not the place.  Far from it.  So, even as you have a point, it gets lost because of the failed hyperbolic communication method you employed.

[Dillon]

1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

Your telepathy is failing you horribly. 

Actually I have said that exact thing.  And some men do still stare.

I dont know what telepathy means.  We can argue it all day long, the facts stay the same.  MOST women, not every single one, but MOST, dress the best possible way to make themselves look more "appealing". 

[anatess2]

Just now, Dillon said:

I dont know what telepathy means.  We can argue it all day long, the facts stay the same.  MOST women, not every single one, but MOST, dress the best possible way to make themselves look more "appealing". 

See you recanted your first statement already.  From "No woman ever" to "Most women".  Do you see why you need to avoid hyperbole when it's not in its proper place?  You end up having to eat your words.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Actually I have said that exact thing.  And some men do still stare.

First, @Sunday21.  Now you.  Just how many women on this forum are so irresistibly hot that men "just can't control themselves" around you?

@zil, do you have such troubles?  @pam?  @Backroads, is there something you want to tell us?

Edited September 1, 2017 by Guest

[Dillon]

4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

See you recanted your first statement already.  From "No woman ever" to "Most women".  Do you see why you need to avoid hyperbole when it's not in its proper place?  You end up having to eat your words.

Well I knew there would be one female that would say "no I have done that"  or "no I do that". 

[Vort]

17 minutes ago, Dillon said:

No woman, ever, has tried on clothes and said "does this outfit make me invisible, does it make me look plain so no one will notice me?"

No, what she says is "does this outfit make me look sexy, cute, skinnier, etc."

Despite having agreed with many of your points (as I have understood them), I must say that the above is untrue. Even granting that you're using hyperbole, this is highly driven by cultural expectation. For example, in many Arab and Muslim cultures, this is exactly what a woman is going for -- to be invisible, unnoticed (at least by men) and left unmolested to go about her business. This is the purpose of the burqa.

[anatess2]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

First, Sunday.  Now you.  Just how many women on this forum are so irresistibly hot that men "just can't control themselves" around you?

@zil , do you have such troubles?  @pam?

Why aren't you asking me?  What's wrong with me?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

Why aren't you asking me?  What's wrong with me?

Because you have a consistent record of self-deprecation.  Fair?

Edited September 1, 2017 by Guest

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, Dillon said:

Well I knew there would be one female that would say "no I have done that"  or "no I do that". 

Exactly.  I'm sure lots of Muslim women donning their burqas, and Catholic nuns donning their habit, and Amish women donning their peasant dress don't go on the mirror and say, "let's go attract them boys!".  So, like I said, avoid the hyperbole and you won't get in trouble.

[Dillon]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

Despite having agreed with many of your points (as I have understood them), I must say that the above is untrue. Even granting that you're using hyperbole, this is highly driven by cultural expectation. For example, in many Arab and Muslim cultures, this is exactly what a woman is going for -- to be invisible, unnoticed (at least by men) and left unmolested to go about her business. This is the purpose of the burqa.

I am not talking about women that are forced to dress a certain way. I am talking about American women that dress for attention and claim they dont.

[Vort]

Just now, Dillon said:

I am not talking about women that are forced to dress a certain way. I am talking about American women that dress for attention and claim they dont.

You may be sure that the large majority of Muslim women want to dress the way they do.

[anatess2]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Because you have a consistent record of self-deprecation.  Fair?

That's true.  I do think men trip all over themselves when I pass by.  Ipanema and everything.  But they're just tripping not passing out because I'm not as breathtaking as @Jane_Doe.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Dillon said:

I am not talking about women that are forced to dress a certain way. I am talking about American women that dress for attention and claim they dont.

I'm not sure you read my post on page 4.  But some women don't realize they are doing it.

[anatess2]

3 minutes ago, Dillon said:

I am not talking about women that are forced to dress a certain way. I am talking about American women that dress for attention and claim they dont.

And the recanting continues... from "No women ever" to "Most women" to "American women that dress for attention".

<insert Wierd Al's Eat It video here.  I'm too lazy to google it.>

[Dillon]

4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

And the recanting continues... from "No women ever" to "Most women" to "American women that dress for attention".

<insert Wierd Al's Eat It video here.  I'm too lazy to google it.>

Well I assumed Muslim women were automatically excluded since they do not have a choice.   If they changed the dress code laws in those Muslim countries, those women would dress just like American women.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Dillon said:

Well I assumed Muslim women were automatically excluded since they do not have a choice. 

Actually, they do have a choice.  Not all of them.  But several Muslim nations do not have legal restrictions.  And the practice of Sharia varies in strictness from country to country.  I met a Pakistani man who said that he gave his daughter the freedom to choose for herself.  Knowing him as I did, he really didn't have any desire to persuade her one way or the other.  After many months of study and prayer, she decided of her own volition to don the burka.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Guest

[estradling75]

As many things the pendulum swings from one extreme to the other... 

on Modesty one extreme is that the Girl has total control over the man's reaction... this is clearly false.

The other extreme is that the Girl has not control or influence over the man's reactions... this is also clearly false. (Proof try walking naked in mixed company)

The simple reality is that God/biology/nature has given the each of the sexes as certain amount of influence over the other.  We are responsible for how we use that influence.

If we do not know what influence we are having on other individuals then we can not be held accountable for it, but learning what influence we have is important which is why it need to be taught.

When it comes to how we use this influence I am reminded about the scripture in the Book of Mormon about the beggar asking for help (Give if we can, but if we can't we are ok) and the scripture in the D&C about how is not required that we run more then we have strength.  We try our best and then when we become aware of a situation that is unusual (like with the ties or shins) we ask ourselves is this something I have the resources (including mental resources) to accommodate... In some cases (like the tie) the accommodating is easy, simply pick another.  In other cases one can't accommodate without a completely new wardrobe (just to cover your shins) that is more then most people can reasonably do.  And in other case we are simply full up mentally at the moment and can't help yet another person.

 

[Jane_Doe]

 

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

First, @Sunday21.  Now you.  Just how many women on this forum are so irresistibly hot that men "just can't control themselves" around you?

@zil, do you have such troubles?  @pam?

** Trigger / I'm going to be super-serious warning here **

 

I was repeated;y raped as a kid, and suffered from severe PTSD growing up.  Men, when aroused, emit pheromones.  I'm super-super-super sensitive to the scent of those pheromones, because when I was a kid that was the warning bell before the pain came.  That smell was my trigger to run away/hide/fight/do something-- anything to avoid it.  Yes, growing up I literally went out of my way (not just a little, but a ton) to avoid any type of male attention.

 I WANTED to be invisible.  For years I wore nothing by formless turtle-necks that went up to my chin, to my thumbs, and I haven't owned a pair of shorts since I was 9.    I resented my body for being beautiful and attracting that attention.  Particularly... frankly I extremely large breasts.  I literally tried to hide as much as I could, but still got male attention: that horrible scent, the stares, the aroused smiles / other physical signs.  Still got men trying to make passes at me, both gentleman-style and.... other styles as well.  Please don't hurt me, please don't hurt me...

Notice how all of the above is in past tense-- therapy and Christ's healing are amazing things.  Now, for me... I think @Carborendum said things nicely well before.  I can't control what a man thinks- it's impossible.  Yes there is biological factors there, and usually a person (of either gender) the initial reaction is largely an involuntary thing.  But after that it's up to that person's agency what they are going to do.  I cannot control them, only they can.  I can only govern myself.  I obey the LoC, and rest of God's commandments, because I am His beloved daughter, and no other reason.  

Edited September 1, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[anatess2]

7 minutes ago, Dillon said:

Well I assumed Muslim women were automatically excluded since they do not have a choice.   If they changed the dress code laws in those Muslim countries, those women would dress just like American women.

Sigh.  Not all Muslim women live in Islamic States, you know.  the Muslim women do wear burqas in the US, you know.  It has not been made illegal yet.  Yes, the hijab is the more popular choice in the US, but even then, I'm sure tons of Muslim women in the US don't put on their hijabs with the thought of... "I'm gonna attract some boy!".

But yeah.  I'm starting to think your hyperbole is not really intended as hyperbole.  It may just be a by-product of... "not having gone out much".

[Midwest LDS]

@Jane_Doe I'm terrribly sorry that's awful. I'm glad you were able to find healing through Christ.

[Dillon]

7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Actually, they do have a choice.  Not all of them.  But several Muslim nations do not have legal restrictions.  And the practice of Sharia varies in strictness from country to country.  I met a Pakistani man who said that he gave his daughter the freedom to choose for herself.  Knowing him as I did, he really didn't have any desire to persuade her one way or the other.  After many months of study and prayer, she decided of her own volition to don the burka.

Hunni is that you? I'm sorry you reminded me of my wife. LOL.    Look I dont have a problem with the way women dress, if they want to dress half naked, hey its their choice. I have the responsibility for myself to keep unclean thoughts out. I just wish women would own up to why they dress the way they do.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

** Trigger / I'm going to be super-serious warning here **

Apologies.  I guess I just get into a joking mood and don't know when to quit.  Sorry.

[Dillon]

7 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Sigh.  Not all Muslim women live in Islamic States, you know.  the Muslim women do wear burqas in the US, you know.  It has not been made illegal yet.  Yes, the hijab is the more popular choice in the US, but even then, I'm sure tons of Muslim women in the US don't put on their hijabs with the thought of... "I'm gonna attract some boy!".

But yeah.  I'm starting to think your hyperbole is not really intended as hyperbole.  It may just be a by-product of... "not having gone out much".

Oh no, the reason I think the way I do is because of the fact I have been around so many women I know how you guys are. Not meaning that in a bad way. I know why women dress immodestly.