Sword of Laban

[Traveler]

I have recently ran across two separate articles concerning ancient mettle artifacts – in particular weapons of war that may have implications concerning the Sword of Laban.  One article was about a sword and the other about a dagger found buried with its owner.  The problem is that the grade of iron was far beyond the metallurgy of the time and even with modern capabilities impossible to duplicate.

Electronic scans at the molecular level reveals that the mettle was likely not smelted on earth but created in an environment very alien to earth then brought to earth via a meteor.  Then forged by the ancients.  The hardness of the mettle is far superior to any found-on earth and when shaped the sword from such mettle will not tarnish, rust or break in battle.  Anciently there are legends of “divine” swords from heaven with “powers”.  Excalibur is one such sword.

It is possible that Laban possessed such a sword and that there is an explanation of why this particular sword was so special and likely intact and without rust.  Not just symbolically but actual alien to earth sent from the heavens.

 

The Traveler

[Fether]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I have recently ran across two separate articles concerning ancient mettle artifacts – in particular weapons of war that may have implications concerning the Sword of Laban.  One article was about a sword and the other about a dagger found buried with its owner.  The problem is that the grade of iron was far beyond the metallurgy of the time and even with modern capabilities impossible to duplicate.

Electronic scans at the molecular level reveals that the mettle was likely not smelted on earth but created in an environment very alien to earth then brought to earth via a meteor.  Then forged by the ancients.  The hardness of the mettle is far superior to any found-on earth and when shaped the sword from such mettle will not tarnish, rust or break in battle.  Anciently there are legends of “divine” swords from heaven with “powers”.  Excalibur is one such sword.

It is possible that Laban possessed such a sword and that there is an explanation of why this particular sword was so special and likely intact and without rust.  Not just symbolically but actual alien to earth sent from the heavens.

 

The Traveler

A very long time ago in a different galaxy from our own (probably pretty far away), there were 3 known and recorded explosions that were the size of planets, each shooting unknown and alien shrapnel in all directions. It’s  POSSIBLE that something from those  xplosions landed here on earth around the time leading up to the Book of Mormon.

[brlenox]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I have recently ran across two separate articles concerning ancient mettle artifacts – in particular weapons of war that may have implications concerning the Sword of Laban.  One article was about a sword and the other about a dagger found buried with its owner.  The problem is that the grade of iron was far beyond the metallurgy of the time and even with modern capabilities impossible to duplicate.

Electronic scans at the molecular level reveals that the mettle was likely not smelted on earth but created in an environment very alien to earth then brought to earth via a meteor.  Then forged by the ancients.  The hardness of the mettle is far superior to any found-on earth and when shaped the sword from such mettle will not tarnish, rust or break in battle.  Anciently there are legends of “divine” swords from heaven with “powers”.  Excalibur is one such sword.

It is possible that Laban possessed such a sword and that there is an explanation of why this particular sword was so special and likely intact and without rust.  Not just symbolically but actual alien to earth sent from the heavens.

 

The Traveler

I never have the mettle to work with articles on metal.

Edited December 27, 2017 by brlenox

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I have recently ran across two separate articles concerning ancient mettle artifacts – in particular weapons of war that may have implications concerning the Sword of Laban.  One article was about a sword and the other about a dagger found buried with its owner.  The problem is that the grade of iron was far beyond the metallurgy of the time and even with modern capabilities impossible to duplicate.

Electronic scans at the molecular level reveals that the mettle was likely not smelted on earth but created in an environment very alien to earth then brought to earth via a meteor.  Then forged by the ancients.  The hardness of the mettle is far superior to any found-on earth and when shaped the sword from such mettle will not tarnish, rust or break in battle.  Anciently there are legends of “divine” swords from heaven with “powers”.  Excalibur is one such sword.

It is possible that Laban possessed such a sword and that there is an explanation of why this particular sword was so special and likely intact and without rust.  Not just symbolically but actual alien to earth sent from the heavens.

I don't necessarily buy into the sword of Laban having been from a meteor.  Possible.  But I have an alternative explanation that is much simpler.

Meteoritic iron is special because it also has a large percentage of Nickel, as well as some other rarer metals.  The assumption is that nickel was an unknown metal prior to the 1700s.  How do we know that?  Just because we don't see it mentioned doesn't mean it was unknown among ancients. 

Take a look at the logic they use.  We know that nickel wasn't discovered until the 1700s.  So, when we come across any iron-nickel alloy that dates prior to 1700, that must mean that it was from non-terrestrial sources.  Uhmm. . .  I'd normally think that means that iron-nickel alloys were made by men prior to 1700, but that records were either hidden or got lost.  But what do I know?  Well, I know that the formula for Damascus steel was lost to history.  Yet we admit it was man-made.

But let's consider --  It is an element that exists on the earth.  It is not so rare as gold.  And it is easier to use and found in shallower mines than gold.

To bring it back to Laban and the Book of Mormon, let me ask the following:  What is "ziff" as mentioned in Mosiah 11:3?  It appears to be somewhere between copper and silver in value.  And the meaning of the word "ziff" means "shiny".  Sounds fairly plausible to think it is nickel.  Nickel is used to make steel into stainless steel, thus shiny. 

Also consider the following question: How did Nephi recognize it as "the most precious steel"?  The obvious answer that most accept is that his family was wealthy for a reason.  They were very capable smiths.  They knew fire and metals.  They were among the best craftsmen.  That also answers why Nephi was of large stature even when he was young.

So, they were smiths.  But what was it about the metal that was so clearly "the most precious steel"?  Notice he says this about the blade itself, not just the overall sword.  It was so obvious that even though it was at night, he recognized its quality simply by looking at it.  Possibilities:

1. The shape.  It is possible that it was of a non-standard shape that could only be created by a master smith of exceptional talent.  But that shape is not indicative of the quality of the steel itself, but of the artisan who shaped it.  It could very well be a decorative sword that looked quite ornate.
2. The weight/balance.  There may have been a density sensitivity that being a smith afforded Nephi.  I don't think so.  The hilt was of pure gold which would have made the thing pretty heavy to begin with.  But then to consider a slight difference in density of the blade alloy along with such a weighty distraction?  I don't think so.
3. The color.  It is possible that the gold content in the metal was such that it gave a slight golden tint.  But that would have been difficult to see in a darkly lit area -- especially if the only source of light was yellow flames to begin with.
4. The luster.  A form of stainless steel alloys would really only have required nickel and copper in small amounts.  If necessary, a small amount of gold could be added to increase the longevity (it lasted three thousand years even after it was used in battle).

If we go with my logic:

1. The existence of iron-nickel alloy swords of ancient date indicate that nickel had been discovered and used by men in the iron age.
2. The meaning of 'ziff' was actually nickel by today's terminology.
3. The Sword of Laban represented the pinnacle of swordsmiths of the day.

Any holes in my theory?

[Vort]

5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Also consider the following question: How did Nephi recognize it as "the most precious steel"?  The obvious answer that most accept is that his family was wealthy for a reason.  They were very capable smiths.  They knew fire and metals.

Well...Nephi was certainly a smith. I don't see much evidence that the whole family was. Smiths were important people, certainly respectable, but they were not usually wealthy. Nibley claims Lehi was a trader,  and that explanation makes a whole lot of sense to me. Not only were traders able to get extremely wealthy if they were good (and brave), but it would explain also why Lehi was so well-versed in Egyptian and why Nephi (given an obviously Egyptian name) would be comfortable handling and creating documents in Demotic or some other closely related Egyptian shorthand, whatever it was that the Lehites very properly called "reformed Egyptian".

(Funny how the anti-Mormons used to hold up the term "reformed Egyptian" to ridicule. Since the knowledge of the existence and usage of Demotic -- which is nothing other than an Egyptian script reformed for use as a very compact way to write Egyptian and other languages, similar to Coptic -- has become more widely disseminated, you don't really hear much "reformed Egyptian" mockery from the Great and Spacious Building, except for those who have embarrassingly not come up to speed and therefore don't know better than to throw unwanted support at old Joe Smith and his strangely prescient fairy tales.)

[Vort]

22 minutes ago, Vort said:

Nibley claims Lehi was a trader,  and that explanation makes a whole lot of sense to me. Not only were traders able to get extremely wealthy if they were good (and brave), but it would explain also why Lehi was so well-versed in Egyptian and why Nephi (given an obviously Egyptian name) would be comfortable handling and creating documents in Demotic or some other closely related Egyptian shorthand, whatever it was that the Lehites very properly called "reformed Egyptian".

And it would also explain why Lehi, a rich man who we might (wrongly) think would be soft and spoiled by riches, would instead be perfectly comfortable packing up his family on short notice and getting out of Dodge with relatively little belly-aching and without raising suspicions.

[wenglund]

10 hours ago, Traveler said:

Electronic scans at the molecular level reveals that the mettle was likely not smelted on earth but created in an environment very alien to earth then brought to earth via a meteor.  Then forged by the ancients.  The hardness of the mettle is far superior to any found-on earth and when shaped the sword from such mettle will not tarnish, rust or break in battle. 

Okay, but does it glow when Orc are near?

Quote

Anciently there are legends of “divine” swords from heaven with “powers”.  Excalibur is one such sword.

"One sword to rule them all, one sword to bind them..."

Sorry, just having some fun. Feel free to ignore.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

 

[Anddenex]

21 hours ago, wenglund said:

Okay, but does it glow when Orc are near?

No, but I have heard rumors of it glowing when Lamanites were near!

[the Ogre]

On 12/27/2017 at 2:17 PM, Fether said:

A very long time ago in a different galaxy from our own (probably pretty far away), there . . .

I've always wondered if the kyber crystal in Laban's sword glowed blue, green, yellow, white, red, or mauve.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, the Ogre said:

I've always wondered if the kyber crystal in Laban's sword glowed blue, green, yellow, white, red, or mauve.

Blue.  But only when orcs are near.

[CV75]

On 12/27/2017 at 2:45 PM, Traveler said:

I have recently ran across two separate articles concerning ancient mettle artifacts – in particular weapons of war that may have implications concerning the Sword of Laban.  One article was about a sword and the other about a dagger found buried with its owner.  The problem is that the grade of iron was far beyond the metallurgy of the time and even with modern capabilities impossible to duplicate.

Electronic scans at the molecular level reveals that the mettle was likely not smelted on earth but created in an environment very alien to earth then brought to earth via a meteor.  Then forged by the ancients.  The hardness of the mettle is far superior to any found-on earth and when shaped the sword from such mettle will not tarnish, rust or break in battle.  Anciently there are legends of “divine” swords from heaven with “powers”.  Excalibur is one such sword.

It is possible that Laban possessed such a sword and that there is an explanation of why this particular sword was so special and likely intact and without rust.  Not just symbolically but actual alien to earth sent from the heavens.

 

The Traveler

This was in the news lately, and you can Google other related articles and some from past years as well: https://www.livescience.com/61214-king-tut-dagger-outer-space.html

 

[askandanswer]

5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Blue.  But only when orcs are near.

This is not a safe thread for an Ogre to participate in

[the Ogre]

3 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

This is not a safe thread for an Ogre to participate in

Ogres brave all perils. We're not that smrt.

[askandanswer]

Regardless of its origins, I think the sword is mis-named. Certainly possession of the sword passed from Laban to Nephi in 1st Nephi 4:9 and perhaps an arguement could be made that ownership began to pass to Nephi in 1st Nephi 4:18. Sometime thereafter I think it would have been appropriate to begin referring to the sword as the sword of Nephi, and perhaps later, as the sword of King Benjamin or the sword of King Mosiah. Certainly, by the time we get to King Benjamin, the sword had been out of Laban's hands for centuries and it does seem odd to continue referring to it as the sword of Laban. 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Regardless of its origins, I think the sword is mis-named. Certainly possession of the sword passed from Laban to Nephi in 1st Nephi 4:9 and perhaps an arguement could be made that ownership began to pass to Nephi in 1st Nephi 4:18. Sometime thereafter I think it would have been appropriate to begin referring to the sword as the sword of Nephi, and perhaps later, as the sword of King Benjamin or the sword of King Mosiah. Certainly, by the time we get to King Benjamin, the sword had been out of Laban's hands for centuries and it does seem odd to continue referring to it as the sword of Laban. 

Not really.  We're creatures of habit.

1st Nephi, 2nd Nephi, and so on.

[CV75]

On 12/27/2017 at 11:01 PM, Vort said:

Well...Nephi was certainly a smith.

So as another prophet of God descended from Joseph and named... Hmmmm

As a side note, the Hebrew word "navi" means prophet, and I like the sound of "the Navi Nephi" as much as I like "the Navi Smith".

http://jewishjournal.com/culture/217909/hebrew-word-week-navi-prophet/

[askandanswer]

Wasn't it also Nephi who Navi gated the ship to the Promised Land?

[Sunday21]

@Carborendum. When Nephi is called to build a ship his first question is ‘Where can I go to get the materials to make metal?’

[Fether]

4 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Wasn't it also Nephi who Navi gated the ship to the Promised Land?

LISTEN! ...to the Holy Spirit

[Colirio]

Nephi recognizing the steel as being precious means that it was something out of the ordinary.

Could be made from Damascus steel which would be instantly recognizable. 

Could be that shiny iron steel was different than other iron based steels used typically in that region. Nickel, manganese, or other additives would cause the steel to be shinier. 

 

For combative purposes, you don't want steel that is just "hard." The edge should be hard to retain a sharp edge, but the remainder of the sword should be "tough" in order to not break if accidentally struck against other hardened objects. This balance between hardness and toughness is the key factor that has caused debate for centuries. It's quite possible that, like a Japanese katana, Nephi simply recognized the layering of folded steel that gave a toughness to the sword while maintaining a hardened edge.

 

This, to me, makes more sense than speculating about whether a magical sword was granted to Nephi from some heavenly material from another place in the galaxy. 

 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Colirio said:

Nephi recognizing the steel as being precious means that it was something out of the ordinary.

Could be made from Damascus steel which would be instantly recognizable. 

Well, we know it wasn't Damascus steel because it doesn't do well against the elements.  One reason we don't know the formula for Damascus steel is that some components had long since corroded.  No remnants even remain.

But something similar?  Like a folding pattern?  Possibly.  But I'm just not getting that from the description.

8 hours ago, Colirio said:

Could be that shiny iron steel was different than other iron based steels used typically in that region. Nickel, manganese, or other additives would cause the steel to be shinier. 

That is kind of what I was getting at later in my post.

8 hours ago, Colirio said:

For combative purposes, you don't want steel that is just "hard." The edge should be hard to retain a sharp edge, but the remainder of the sword should be "tough" in order to not break if accidentally struck against other hardened objects. This balance between hardness and toughness is the key factor that has caused debate for centuries. It's quite possible that, like a Japanese katana, Nephi simply recognized the layering of folded steel that gave a toughness to the sword while maintaining a hardened edge.

Actually, this is not correct metallurgy.  There is no reason a hard steel cannot also have tremendous toughness.  The properties are not directly related.  Folding is not about hardening or not hardening.  And it does not change the toughness of the alloy itself.  It is about removing voids in the crystal structure.  For instance, it the metallurgy has a cubic structure, then folding helps ensure that all four corners of every cube is in its proper place.  It ensures that each cube is linked to all other cubes.  Without the folding, the alloy is subject to weakness.  While folding doesn't get rid of all such voids, it does tend to spread out the voids to a more random pattern, so the overall structural integrity is maintained.

With structural integrity maintained, the strain energy capacity of each crystal is increased (toughening).

8 hours ago, Colirio said:

This, to me, makes more sense than speculating about whether a magical sword was granted to Nephi from some heavenly material from another place in the galaxy. 

On this point, I agree with you.

[Colirio]

15 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Well, we know it wasn't Damascus steel because it doesn't do well against the elements.  One reason we don't know the formula for Damascus steel is that some components had long since corroded.  No remnants even remain.

But something similar?  Like a folding pattern?  Possibly.  But I'm just not getting that from the description.

I agree that the description is vague. 

 

That is my point, though. It simply says "most precious steel." All that says is it is something recognizable by viewing, not really by testing. 

True Damascus would have been recognizable by view. As for its corrosion over time, the sword of Laban had been passed along and thereby maintained through the generations of Nephites. For all we know, it could have been packed in an extremely oily substance inside the stone box for the thousand plus years. Just offering more possibilities and a simple explanation. 

 

But my guess, like yours, was that it was due to the shine of the steel. 

 

15 hours ago, Carborendum said:

That is kind of what I was getting at later in my post.

Agreed. Your post was excellent.

 

15 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Actually, this is not correct metallurgy.  There is no reason a hard steel cannot also have tremendous toughness.  The properties are not directly related.  Folding is not about hardening or not hardening.  And it does not change the toughness of the alloy itself.  It is about removing voids in the crystal structure.  For instance, it the metallurgy has a cubic structure, then folding helps ensure that all four corners of every cube is in its proper place.  It ensures that each cube is linked to all other cubes.  Without the folding, the alloy is subject to weakness.  While folding doesn't get rid of all such voids, it does tend to spread out the voids to a more random pattern, so the overall structural integrity is maintained.

With structural integrity maintained, the strain energy capacity of each crystal is increased (toughening).

With modern metallurgy and especially spring steels, a really tough, decent edge holding steel CAN be achieved. 

 

The difficulty for generations of smiths however has been to solve this riddle of steel between edge retention (a result of hardness) and a sufficient toughness to stand up to the rigors of battle. The accounts can be googled of warriors angrily bending their metal swords back into shape on the battlefield or worse yet, their swords shattering when blocked or parried. Even The Book of Mormon contains an account of a sword being broken. 

 

You are correct about the purposes for folding the steel in order to remove impurities. I can see where the misunderstanding comes from how I worded my paragraph. 

 

The steel was already folded. During the quenching process the steel (which was already folded) used a clay that allowed certain parts of the katana to be harder (around the edge) while the rest made a tougher steel (to absorb more impact.) 

Folded, clay hardened steel would have been instantly recognizable as having been forged by a competent smith or by one who cut corners. 

 

Again, just offering simple explanations as to how Nephi might have instantly recognized the "most precious steel." 

 

15 hours ago, Carborendum said:

On this point, I agree with you.

I have a feeling we are in agreement on most things.  

[Colirio]

Just wanted to add some links that discuss the trade off between toughness and hardness of steel.

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/metal-fundamentals.html

 

https://www.americancuttingedge.com/technical-info/hardness-toughness/

 

https://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/battle-ready-sword.html

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Colirio said:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/metal-fundamentals.html

I'm going through the articles.  Thank you for the links.  But I'm finding a combination of truth and error in this first one.  FYI.  It may be that the expert was just talking to a lay audience.  That I can understand.  But since we're kinda talking about the specifics of hardness vs toughness, we need to be a little more specific and technical.

Quote

ADDING DEFECTS MAKES IT STRONGER:

The great thing about metal is that its atoms are able to rearrange relatively easily, using defects as a way of moving around, and this allows us to change the metal's form. And if we start to build up more and more defects, they start to distort the structure, and the atoms no longer move as easily. The result is we build up the strength. So this is another way that we can tune up the properties of the material, by controlling the number of defects that exist inside.

If I take a piece of copper tube, for instance, it's relatively easy to bend it the first time. And if I were to install it in a home or business, I could straighten it out as needed. But if I make a mistake and try to change the shape of it again, it gets much more difficult to straighten it out the second time and even more difficult the third time. Because every time I bend it, I create lots of microscopic defects inside, and the more defects I have, the stronger the material gets.

I'm not certain how knowledgeable you are in metals.  But for the benefit of anyone else reading this thread, I'll explain a bit.

I'm aware of what this guy is talking about.  The phenomenon he's describing is known as strain hardening.  What happens is that if you're able to distort something beyond the yield point and into what is known as the Ultimate Range or Strain Hardening Range, it does as he's talking about.  It tends to do two things.  1) It raises the yield strength. 2) It makes it more brittle.  

This is what is commonly talked about when balancing flexibility with strength.  But that isn't really a technically sound way of looking at it.  Nor is it a good technique for any steel that is designed to resist impact loads.

Modern steels are often strengthened by a change in composition, not much is developed by forging and quenching techniques.  This could easily have been done in 600 BC, but may have not been the norm.  It wasn't a matter of a lack of technology to do this.  It was just a matter of someone knowing enough about steel to do so.

So, the common belief was that strength and flexibility are at odds with each other.  You can't increase one without decreasing the other.  Swordsmiths today believe that you need one alloy for the edge while having another alloy for the body of the blade.  This is born out of the concept that both the alloy and the forging will affect both characteristics.  That is only true if you MAKE it true. 

By separating the methods (i.e. Use alloy composition for strength and use forging for durability) then you can certainly achieve both simultaneously.

DISCLAIMER: This is what is done for mass steel required to take tremendous loads.  The ins and outs of swordsmithing are not an area that I'm an expert in.  But the steel properties are the steel properties.  And you can easily increase strength (a LOT) while ensuring non-brittle behavior.

Edited January 1, 2018 by Guest

[Vort]

Here's my small contribution to the topic:

Ancient smelting methods were generally incapable of completely removing slag from iron. Thus, iron was generally worked ("wrought") in order to drive out impurities and evenly distribute the remaining slag throughout the iron. The resulting "wrought iron" was very hard and quite strong, not as brittle as you might think. I do not know how this fact affected ancient swordmaking, but I'm sure it played a part.

Modern iron smelting involves a high-temperature, coal-fired blast furnace smelting ore that has a lot of limestone mixed into it. The resulting product is almost 100% pure iron, without impurities. Turns out that pure iron is actually not the greatest substance for making most iron objects, though it's a wonderful base for alloying into various kinds of steel. Thus, we moderns can control our iron/steel products better and produce a much more predictable and higher-quality product than could the ancients.