I need help with information on the kinderhook plates

[Sunday21]

37 minutes ago, Grunt said:

It’s why I went back for a degree in business.  

Bet you were great at writing up case studies!

[Sunday21]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

If you want brainy people, don't look at me @Sunday21. 

I strongly disagree! I have read your sentences! 

[zil]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

I was an English major

And all this time I thought you were in the American military.  Go figure.

[bytebear]

I think if you have issues with the Book of Abraham, it should be with the content, not the process of its text to Joseph Smith.  You accept the Book of Mormon as divinely inspired, and yet, the story is pretty unbelievable.  I would pray about the truthfulness of the book, and then work out how it came to be to whatever explanation fits best for you.  There are several theories, none of them official, and the church doesn't have a doctrinal position on how it came to be.  We simply have the historical record.

[Grunt]

2 hours ago, zil said:

And all this time I thought you were in the American military.  Go figure.

I am.  What else would an English major do?  Panhandling in Tampa was already taken.  

[JohnsonJones]

7 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

I would like to make something 100% clear, I actually think the book of mormon is divinely inspired.  All I am saying that there are a lot of problems, problems that people get attacked for bringing up, problems that need to at least be acknowledged.  I do think the kinder hook plates and more importantly Book of Abraham problem is a big one and it does give me a lot of doubts because its supposed to be scripture, I don't think we can trust the book of Abraham is scripture.

I don't understand why it is so hard for people to say - yes that's messed up, yes thats a problem, without trying to make 3 million excuses for why they think it happened like that.

I think it is the same problem with Christianity and history.  Christians NORMALLY do not say that Christianity is messed up, does that mean it's a problem?. 

Part of it is also the validity one gives to another sides claims, or their faith in such.

Some of it depends on what one believes and thinks.

However, I think it is not Faith that is the troubling thing for you, but what you perceive the FACTS are.  The question is...where are you getting your facts from?

For example, I am a Historian.  As such, in the history books I have pretty strong evidence against the Bible and Christianity.  History could probably win a court case in an unbiased court, using our current evidence that we possess, that most of what the is found in the Bible never happened.  This includes the New Testament.

We have STRONG archeological and geological evidence in our current understanding of science that many of the events in the first 15 chapters of Genesis did not occur or could not have happened as written.

So, what do I believe?

I am a Christian.  I believe STRONGLY in the Bible.  I am actually what many would call a literalist.  I believe what the Bible states LITERALLY happened, that includes the creation of man in Genesis, six days of creation, the flood over the entire earth, and all the rest of it.

I suppose I do this in two ways.  The first is I separate my professional ideas and work from my Faith.  What I say in regards to faith in many instances are not things I'd say in regards to History, and what I hold true as per History may not be what I hold as truth for my Faith.  I know, it's weird.

In this way, I suppose I see it very similarly to me, as a Historian and what I know about the evidences of the Bible...and yet, my belief in it.  People might use things I've discussed in an atheistic pamphlet...but I, the originator of some of that...in a twist of irony, STRONGLY believe in the Bible.  I don't just believe, I'm even a literalist on top of that!

So, where am I getting my facts?  Why is it that my facts that I have, are utilized in such a way by those who oppose Christianity and the Bible in some instances, which seems at extreme odds and opposition to what my own beliefs are?  The biggest irony, because I believe in the way I do, some of those who are Anti-Christian would call me uneducated on the very facts I wrote...and ignorant on the very theories I talked about as a Historian!!!

Which brings up the question...where is one getting their "FACTS" from?  Is it from the people who actually did the stuff, or is it from others who are saying certain things in that regards?

I have no solution for you in regards to FACTS or anything else, except to advise you to see WHERE those facts are coming from.  However, as you probably are not a Historian, that idea may be meaningless anyways.

I agree with the idea that you should question.  I am one that feels if you cannot question what is in a religion, then that religion is not one worth being a part of.  One should be allowed and open to question things within that religion. 

In that light, I can understand why you are troubled by these things.  I also don't have any solutions for you in the way you are going about it.  As long as you continue to get your facts in the way that you are proceeding...I don't see any solutions via that method...at least if positions were reversed and it was me proceeding personally in that method.

Thus, the only advice I can come to is that if you want to find if the gospel taught in the LDS church is true, is to continue to study and pray about it.  If you can get an answer from the Lord, I think it can change one's perspective.

With enough faith, we can see angels.  That may not necessarily happen with you, or be how you get your answer, but it is possible.  If that occurred, and an angel came from heaven...and told you that the something was true...how would our approach change in what we thought and how we think.  I'm not saying this will happen to you...but I do think you can get an answer through prayer.

If nothing else, even if you do not join the LDS church, I think your own faith in Jesus Christ can be strengthened by Prayer.

That is what is really the difference in my life, I think.  When I talked about the Bible above, the biggest reason I can give for my continued belief is not because of the FACTS found in history...but due to answers I've gotten personally.  Because of that, my faith in the Bible and the Lord have increased.  I KNOW Jesus Christ is our Savior and that he lives.  I know that you can find this through prayer if you have not already.

In that same light, if you want answers, perhaps the best place to turn to at times is the Lord.  I can't guarantee you will get all the answers you desire, or even the answers that many hope you will get on this forum...only that turning to the Lord may be the best place for you to turn to at times. 

Sorry I don't have a better answer or thought to that.  I can acknowledge that you have doubts and problems with the Book of Abraham and many other things in regards to the LDS history.  I don't have a solution for you.  It may be others do, or it may be something that the Lord can help you through.  

 

 

Edited February 5, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[zil]

6 hours ago, Grunt said:

I am.  What else would an English major do?  Panhandling in Tampa was already taken.  

English major, American major, sergeant major, captain gets promoted to major...

[Blossom76]

13 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I think it is the same problem with Christianity and history.  Christians NORMALLY do not say that Christianity is messed up, does that mean it's a problem?. 

Part of it is also the validity one gives to another sides claims, or their faith in such.

Some of it depends on what one believes and thinks.

However, I think it is not Faith that is the troubling thing for you, but what you perceive the FACTS are.  The question is...where are you getting your facts from?

For example, I am a Historian.  As such, in the history books I have pretty strong evidence against the Bible and Christianity.  History could probably win a court case in an unbiased court, using our current evidence that we possess, that most of what the is found in the Bible never happened.  This includes the New Testament.

We have STRONG archeological and geological evidence in our current understanding of science that many of the events in the first 15 chapters of Genesis did not occur or could not have happened as written.

So, what do I believe?

I am a Christian.  I believe STRONGLY in the Bible.  I am actually what many would call a literalist.  I believe what the Bible states LITERALLY happened, that includes the creation of man in Genesis, six days of creation, the flood over the entire earth, and all the rest of it.

I suppose I do this in two ways.  The first is I separate my professional ideas and work from my Faith.  What I say in regards to faith in many instances are not things I'd say in regards to History, and what I hold true as per History may not be what I hold as truth for my Faith.  I know, it's weird.

In this way, I suppose I see it very similarly to me, as a Historian and what I know about the evidences of the Bible...and yet, my belief in it.  People might use things I've discussed in an atheistic pamphlet...but I, the originator of some of that...in a twist of irony, STRONGLY believe in the Bible.  I don't just believe, I'm even a literalist on top of that!

So, where am I getting my facts?  Why is it that my facts that I have, are utilized in such a way by those who oppose Christianity and the Bible in some instances, which seems at extreme odds and opposition to what my own beliefs are?  The biggest irony, because I believe in the way I do, some of those who are Anti-Christian would call me uneducated on the very facts I wrote...and ignorant on the very theories I talked about as a Historian!!!

Which brings up the question...where is one getting their "FACTS" from?  Is it from the people who actually did the stuff, or is it from others who are saying certain things in that regards?

I have no solution for you in regards to FACTS or anything else, except to advise you to see WHERE those facts are coming from.  However, as you probably are not a Historian, that idea may be meaningless anyways.

I agree with the idea that you should question.  I am one that feels if you cannot question what is in a religion, then that religion is not one worth being a part of.  One should be allowed and open to question things within that religion. 

In that light, I can understand why you are troubled by these things.  I also don't have any solutions for you in the way you are going about it.  As long as you continue to get your facts in the way that you are proceeding...I don't see any solutions via that method...at least if positions were reversed and it was me proceeding personally in that method.

Thus, the only advice I can come to is that if you want to find if the gospel taught in the LDS church is true, is to continue to study and pray about it.  If you can get an answer from the Lord, I think it can change one's perspective.

With enough faith, we can see angels.  That may not necessarily happen with you, or be how you get your answer, but it is possible.  If that occurred, and an angel came from heaven...and told you that the something was true...how would our approach change in what we thought and how we think.  I'm not saying this will happen to you...but I do think you can get an answer through prayer.

If nothing else, even if you do not join the LDS church, I think your own faith in Jesus Christ can be strengthened by Prayer.

That is what is really the difference in my life, I think.  When I talked about the Bible above, the biggest reason I can give for my continued belief is not because of the FACTS found in history...but due to answers I've gotten personally.  Because of that, my faith in the Bible and the Lord have increased.  I KNOW Jesus Christ is our Savior and that he lives.  I know that you can find this through prayer if you have not already.

In that same light, if you want answers, perhaps the best place to turn to at times is the Lord.  I can't guarantee you will get all the answers you desire, or even the answers that many hope you will get on this forum...only that turning to the Lord may be the best place for you to turn to at times. 

Sorry I don't have a better answer or thought to that.  I can acknowledge that you have doubts and problems with the Book of Abraham and many other things in regards to the LDS history.  I don't have a solution for you.  It may be others do, or it may be something that the Lord can help you through.  

 

 

amazing post, thank you so much for this, it has made both me and my husband really think about what we are doing and why we are doing it more than you know

Edited February 5, 2018 by Blossom76

[Grunt]

21 minutes ago, zil said:

English major, American major, sergeant major, captain gets promoted to major...

Major pain in the tush....

[zil]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

Major pain in the tush....

I try.

[askandanswer]

3 hours ago, zil said:

I try.

I kind of thought that with you it just came naturally, without even having to try. 

[warnerfranklin]

As per Wikipedia:  

According to Wilbur Fugate in 1879,^[1] the plates were carefully forged by himself and two other men (Bridge Whitten and Robert Wiley) from Kinderhook who were testing the validity of the claims made by Joseph Smith, founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, at that time headquartered in Nauvoo. According to Latter Day Saint belief, the Book of Mormon was originally translated by Smith from a record engraved on golden plates by ancient inhabitants of the Americas

Knowing very little of the kinderhook plates I will say that I find the timing of Mr Fugate’s revelation, 35 years after Joseph’s murder and during a time of intense persecution of the church, to be problematic.  

[Guest MormonGator]

16 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

And a great deal of these 'well informed' members you speak of readily admit that they haven't read both sides of the argument 

I think human nature leads all of us (from atheists to Mormons to Jews to whatever) to seek out articles and books that confirm our bias, not challenge them. After all, who wants to read something that would :: gasp :: make us question our own beliefs?!

I actually don't advise people to read things that they disagree with. It's much better to only read things that you already agree with so you won't ask questions or be challenged, or do anything to upset your life. 

I admire you @Blossom76 for investigating the church and for looking at both sides before you do so. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by MormonGator

[Maureen]

18 hours ago, askandanswer said:

...I think the fact that the kinderhook story appears in one History of the Church by B H Roberts and not in the other History of the Church by Joseph Smith gives another reason why this story should be treated with caution.

Just to be clear, it is the History of the Church (Joseph Smith) that mentions the Kinderhook plates (7 volumes) and NOT the Comprehensive History (6 Volumes).

M.

[SilentOne]

Side note:

Your feelings affect the way you interpret the motives and emotions of those you are conversing with. I have at times found myself reading into posts on heated topics and sometimes responding to things not actually said, or taking personally what a later reading showed was not meant that way at all. So now I avoid posting when angry, and often take a week or so away from the thread, or maybe even the entire forum, or on rare occasions, most of the internet, to allow myself to calm down before responding. Few forum topics are really urgent, after all.

This solution might not work for everyone, but I think it's something worth considering.

[Guest]

On 2/4/2018 at 7:25 PM, MormonGator said:

The most interesting thing about BH Roberts is if he personally kept his testimony in the Book of Mormon-I've read his "Studies of the Book of Mormon" and it's very, very complicated. He seems to have wavered several times in his life. 

Actually, I wasn't aware of that. So what's the story there?

[Guest MormonGator]

11 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Actually, I wasn't aware of that. So what's the story there?

The book (which I have on my book case in my living room)asks some dicey rhetorical questions about the similarities between "View of the Hebrews" and the Book of Mormon. There are also many other challenges aside from VOTH/BOM comparisons that Roberts seems to struggle with. Read the book if you'd like, I have-several times. 

Let me be clear: I am not saying that I agree with his arguments. What I am saying and what I stand by 100% is that I think Roberts himself struggled mightily with his research and the conclusions he came to.  

Apparently LDS apologists bend over backwards to defend Roberts because you can't just dismiss him as an "anti-Mormon". So a lot of research about him is out there. A BYU history professor wrote about it too. I forget his name, but apparently this professor though that Roberts died an unbeliever even though Roberts didn't publicly deny his testimony. 

Edited February 6, 2018 by MormonGator

[warnerfranklin]

8 hours ago, MormonGator said:

I think human nature leads all of us (from atheists to Mormons to Jews to whatever) to seek out articles and books that confirm our bias, not challenge them. After all, who wants to read something that would :: gasp :: make us question our own beliefs?! 

I am sending you out like sheep among wolves.  Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and gentle as doves.  Matthew 10:16

Keep this book of the law always on your lips; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it.  Then you will be prosperous and successful.  Joshua 1:8

To the person who pleases Him, God gives wisdom, knowledge, and happiness, but to the sinner He gives the task of gathering and storing up wealth to hand it over to the one who pleases God....  Ecclesiastes 2:26

I was told by a friend that when bankers are being taught to identify counterfeit bills they only look at the real thing.  Never once do they look at the counterfeit.  That way, when they actually see a fake bill they will know it because it does not align with what is true and correct.

We live in a world where every moment of everyday we are bombarded by those things that are contrary to what our Father says is good and correct.  I don't have to go looking for things to challenge my faith because they come looking for me.  They come looking for us.

And take up the helmet of salvation and the sword of the spirit, which is the word of God.  Ephesians 6:17

It is only by building our testimony through scripture reading, prayer, church attendance, the gathering together of believers (like we are doing now  ) that we are able to fight off these challenges to our faith.  By being armed in the knowledge of the word of God we can, in humility and a spirit of love, answer those questions and challenges that others have about our faith.

 

 

 

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, warnerfranklin said:

  By being armed in the knowledge of the word of God we can, in humility and a spirit of love, answer those questions and challenges that others have about our faith.

Amen my brother. Amen. 

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, warnerfranklin said:

I was told by a friend that when bankers are being taught to identify counterfeit bills they only look at the real thing.  Never once do they look at the counterfeit.  That way, when they actually see a fake bill they will know it because it does not align with what is true and correct.

I'll take that analogy one step further.

I heard an interview with a counterfeiting specialist.  The interviewer finally asked the question that all of us would want to know.  Is there any one factor that simply cannot be counterfeited? Or is there some surefire way of knowing that it is or is not counterfeit?

Yes.  If you take it to the Secretary of the Treasury and he looks at it and runs it through all his records and tests and he finally declares it to be a real bill or a fake.  That is really the end all and be all of a real bill or a fake one.  That's it.  It doesn't matter if you go through it's history with video tape or with signed affadavits through every change of hands.  It doesn't matter if that mountain of evidence counters the SoT or not.  The only thing that matters is if the Big Guy says it is so or not.  No other evidence or argument matters.

Does that sound familiar?  

In our case, it should be even more important to understand this principle.  The Big Guy is THE Big Guy.  He makes no mistakes.  His word IS FINAL.  It doesn't matter what other evidence or history we can drum up.  When He says it is true or not NOTHING ELSE MATTERS.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Guest

[mordorbund]

40 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Actually, I wasn't aware of that. So what's the story there?

https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/b-h-roberts-and-book-mormon Section 8. Roberts as Devil's Advocate

Roberts was asked by committee to respond to a handful of challenges to The Book of Mormon. Instead he expanded the list and presented the issues in a full day's worth of meetings. This lengthy list is known as "Book of Mormon Difficulties". Not long afterward, he wrote a fuller work "Study of the Book of Mormon" which was intended for the First Presidency. From what I gather, Roberts was essentially constructing a roadmap of questions and issues, including anticipated questions and issues that hadn't been raised yet, that apologists would need to address.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1986/03/b-h-roberts-seeker-after-truth?lang=eng

 

[warnerfranklin]

10 hours ago, mordorbund said:

This lengthy list is known as "Book of Mormon Difficulties". Not long afterward, he wrote a fuller work "Study of the Book of Mormon" which was intended for the First Presidency. From what I gather, Roberts was essentially constructing a roadmap of questions and issues, including anticipated questions and issues that hadn't been raised yet, that apologists would need to address.

 

Not knowing much about the whole of what Mr. Roberts did I will say that what he did was a good idea - something we should all do. 

One of the great circle of life moments I have on a regular basis, being a former evangelical, is that those arguments I once used against Mormons are now being used against me now that I’m LDS.

I personally think being challenged is a good thing (in a growth sense) because it forces me to take my scripture study more seriously. It was no longer about read “X” amount of chapters per day, but finding out what the scriptures say about this or that doctrine. When I couldn’t find for myself the answers in the scripture It became a matter of researching what the church teaches and then reading the scriptures they quoted in their lessons. 

Then, in a spirit of love and humility, I could answer those questions that others have. Many of which turned out to be misconceptions or something that was taken out of context.  But again the answer begins with scripture study and, when we can’t find the answer for ourself, seeing what others have to say about the doctrine in question.

Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.  Ephesians 6:17

 

[Guest MormonGator]

12 hours ago, mordorbund said:

https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/b-h-roberts-and-book-mormon Section 8. Roberts as Devil's Advocate

Roberts was asked by committee to respond to a handful of challenges to The Book of Mormon. Instead he expanded the list and presented the issues in a full day's worth of meetings. This lengthy list is known as "Book of Mormon Difficulties". Not long afterward, he wrote a fuller work "Study of the Book of Mormon" which was intended for the First Presidency. From what I gather, Roberts was essentially constructing a roadmap of questions and issues, including anticipated questions and issues that hadn't been raised yet, that apologists would need to address.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1986/03/b-h-roberts-seeker-after-truth?lang=eng

 

I think it's up to the reader if he was playing devils advocate or if his own research genuinely bothered him and effected his faith. Obviously if you are believer, you'll say he was playing devils advocate. If you are a disbeliever, you'll say he lost all his faith. 

In my view, there is no set answer. Devil's advocate is one thing, but while reading that book it sounds like the man really struggled with his conclusions. It's much, much more gray than both sides want to admit. I'm talking about Roberts personal faith, not faith overall. 

Edited February 6, 2018 by MormonGator

[NeedleinA]

My graphic investment for the day.
The approach of most anti material is to stuff the face of an investigator, new member or passive member with as much raw meat as possible.
While it is true they also try this approach on seasoned members, it usually falls on it's face since said members have the benefit of previous building blocks (milk, soft foods, fruits, vegetables) first, laying down the ground work, background and context.

Upon consumption of raw meat, comes the shock, then confusion, then sadness and too often the anger. Little wonder why this happens.
If someone finds themselves in this situation, there are 'at least' two approaches.
1. "Doubt your doubts first". Be patient and slow to accuse. Humbly seek out the building blocks to put that raw meat into context.
Or
2. Freak out. Doubt further. See only excuses not explanations. Then worse try to spread the raw meat around by telling others that what they believe in is dishonest/misleading.

Don't consume raw meat! Build yourself up to the point where you can enjoy a savory medium well done steak instead.
Miss out on the building blocks first? Sad day for everyone...

Edited February 6, 2018 by NeedleinA

[warnerfranklin]

NeedleinA hit that on the head with the analogy used above. I guess it’s the “throw the pizza at the walll and see what sticks approach.”  

So glad we have forums like this to help people get past the smoke screen that detractors throw up.