3rd hour meeting on fostering love with members of the LGBTQ community

[Vort]

Just now, MormonGator said:

At least we can agree that Gary Cherone (whom I saw a Kiss show in Boston) was not a good choice for them. Right? Right? 

(rumored to be a super nice guy, but his VH album was not a success) 

I have heard so little of him, including I think one VH song, that I don't have an opinion on him personally. I just think DLR sort of defined VH. But then, I'm 55.

[Grunt]

5 hours ago, changed said:

I think the mother handled this situation beautifully.  So sad that so many are unable share their struggles, and feel ashamed of who they are.  ....What leads to suicides?  What leads to greater love and understanding?  There seems to be a divide between those with LGBT in their immediate family, and those who do not understand what the issues really are... greater communication, listening, walking a mile in another's shoes - that is what is needed for healing and unity.

I have a Trans in my family.  I don't believe God wants me to tell him it was a great choice.  I don't think pretending he is in a male/female relationship helps him, my family, or my community.

[Guest MormonGator]

22 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I have a Trans in my family.  I don't believe God wants me to tell him it was a great choice.  I don't think pretending he is in a male/female relationship helps him, my family, or my community.

I don't think most members of the LGBT community are interested in our opinion. If you approve of them or not, it's totally irrelevant to their lives.  You probably don't care if they approve of your religious views, do you? 

Edited February 7, 2018 by MormonGator

[Grunt]

20 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I don't think most members of the LGBT community are interested in our opinion. If you approve of them or not, it's totally irrelevant to their lives.  You probably don't care if they approve of your religious views, do you? 

I absolutely disagree.  I think they want more than anything for people to affirm that their behavior is normal.  Particularly in the case of my family member.

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I absolutely disagree.  I think they want more than anything for people to affirm that their behavior is normal.  Particularly in the case of my family member.

We've certainly had very different experiences with members of that community. Sorry your family member is difficult. The few gay people I know don't care at all if you accept them or not.

[Grunt]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

We've certainly had very different experiences with members of that community. Sorry your family member is difficult. The few gay people I know don't care at all if you accept them or not.

He's not difficult at all.  I didn't mean to imply he was.  He, and most ALPHABET people I know, seem to have a driven sense that me as an individual or society in general needs to accept them as normal. 

[mirkwood]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

I have heard so little of him, including I think one VH song, that I don't have an opinion on him personally. I just think DLR sort of defined VH. But then, I'm 55.

Van Halen without DLR is a completely different band.

[NeuroTypical]

12 hours ago, Grunt said:

I have a Trans in my family.  I don't believe God wants me to tell him it was a great choice.  I don't think pretending he is in a male/female relationship helps him, my family, or my community.

We do know what God wants you to do with him, right?

[NeuroTypical]

13 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Right Now vs Jump. 

Q.E.D. 

Ugh. I wake up this morning, get on to mormonhub, and I'm suddenly I'm back on that bus to middle school.   The discussion about gays is a bit more highbrow this time around, everything else is the same.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Grunt said:

I absolutely disagree.  I think they want more than anything for people to affirm that their behavior is normal.  Particularly in the case of my family member.

11 hours ago, MormonGator said:

We've certainly had very different experiences with members of that community. Sorry your family member is difficult. The few gay people I know don't care at all if you accept them or not.

We have to look at it in terms of the politically active vs the average person in life.  The politically active liberal is someone I think has either sold their soul to the devil or is mentally disturbed.  But the average liberal has ideas very similar to the average conservative.

In the same way, we get to see the SJWs and the politically active homosexuals much more commonly than the average gay person.  So, for the most part, I'd extrapolate that the average gay person doesn't really care much.

However, there are two points to make the other direction.

1) I personally believe that a lot of homosexuals don't have a mental condition.  It is quite a different matter.  But 99.999% of transexuals are mentally disturbed.  That percentage, BTW, was taken from statistics on how many actually have a physiological issue that may justify their condition.  So, transgenders are simply going to be messed up no matter what.

2) Because the politically active, flaming, gay person is who is put out there SO MUCH, that is the role-model that the already small percentage of homosexuals see.  Thus a larger percentage of gays will gravitate towards that behavior more than the average heterosexual.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Grunt said:

He's not difficult at all.  I didn't mean to imply he was.  He, and most ALPHABET people I know, seem to have a driven sense that me as an individual or society in general needs to accept them as normal. 

Do you believe this is different than "seeking your approval"?  I see this as somewhat different.

[NeuroTypical]

So, I have a buddy who married a lady who now is named George and uses male pronouns.  We argue on facebook.  All the time.  We like to argue.  We are facebook arguing buddies.  

Respect and accept him as a human, joint-heir with me and Christ, inheritor of a divine birthright: check.
Respect and accept his opinions about the way things are: Only if he manages to crowbar me into submission with a stronger and more persuasive opinion about something, and I rarely go down easy. 

All good.  

Edited February 7, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[Guest MormonGator]

7 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Ugh. I wake up this morning, get on to mormonhub, and I'm suddenly I'm back on that bus to middle school.   The discussion about gays is a bit more highbrow this time around, everything else is the same.

I just want it known that I could make an age joke about you being in "middle school" during the time of Van Halen when in reality you were middle school when Buddy Holly was popular. But I've already made a few age jokes about @Vort, and three or four age jokes in one thread gets old. So I certainly thought about it, but I'm taking the high ground here.

[NeuroTypical]

I remember the look on dude's face as he sneered out "Van Hagar?  Are you @&$$Xx'in stupid?"  I remember we were on the corner of 45th and Highland, heading up to Olympus Jr. High.  The '80's were heady times. 

(And I didn't know it at the time, but @mirkwoodwas one of the dweebs from "that other school".  I wish I had known it at the time, I could have TP'd his house one night.  Dude was gonna grow up to be a cop, you could just tell.)

Edited February 7, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[Grunt]

35 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

We do know what God wants you to do with him, right?

Play horse shoes?  I'm a convert.  People have low expectations from me.

[Grunt]

33 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Do you believe this is different than "seeking your approval"?  I see this as somewhat different.

No.  I don't see a difference.  If you do, it's likely my wording because it isn't my intent.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Grunt

[NeuroTypical]

Quote

Play horse shoes?  I'm a convert.  People have low expectations from me.

lol maybe.

Quote

And one of the scribes came, and ... asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is ... thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.  And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

If playing horse shoes is loving him, then there you go.  Unless it leads to like the two of you trying to brain each other with horseshoes.  If that's the case, maybe do whiffle-ball.

[Grunt]

Just now, NeuroTypical said:

lol maybe.

If playing horse shoes is loving him, then there you go.  Unless it leads to like the two of you trying to brain each other with horseshoes.  If that's the case, maybe do whiffle-ball.

We talk and we're polite.  I feel for him and wish him the best.  He has little interest in having many discussions with me, though.   I support everyone's right to live as they choose.  I'm sincerely happy if they're happy.  I just know what the eternal result of those decisions are and am sorry they don't see it.  I believe true happiness isn't what they're experiencing.  I didn't know the depth of a relationship or the happiness of God's blessings until I started receiving them.

[JohnsonJones]

12 hours ago, Grunt said:

I absolutely disagree.  I think they want more than anything for people to affirm that their behavior is normal.  Particularly in the case of my family member.

Not in my direct family, but in my extended family of in-laws (not with one of my kids, but one of their brother in laws who is now a sister-in-law) we have this same situation.  They also seek the same affirmation.

What @Grunt says is good. Many families cannot bring themselves to even talk about this when it occurs.  People think it's a simple binary of accept the individual or not...however, it can be hard for parents and others in the family to even talk about this to others.  With that much difficulty in just talking, it can create difficulties with the one who has changed and the family who still remembers them otherwise.

It's tough on both sides.  It may be tougher than many can imagine. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[Vort]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

three or four age jokes in one thread gets old

I get it!

[SilentOne]

On 2/5/2018 at 8:04 PM, askandanswer said:

I don't think people should have too much of a problem if the Prophet announces next Thursday that gay marriages can be solemnized in the Temple, and then on Friday he says that they can't and then on Saturday he says that they can.

1

It could be a significant problem logistically for whoever was in charge of scheduling.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

No.  I don't see a difference.  If you do, it's likely my wording because it isn't my intent.

I've had to think about this for a bit.  I do think there's a slight difference.  But for the purposes of this thread, that difference doesn't really matter for what you're talking about.

Can we consider them "normal"?  Of course not.  Statistically, when we have a breakdown of 85% or more of one item, and all others combined to form the 15% or less, guess which one is normal?  So, no they're not normal.  That is a logical statement based on facts.

Approval, on the other hand, is not a scientific, logical, or fact based.  It is entirely emotional.  And it is based on one's own opinions and background.

So, for either one, they're wanting something that simply cannot be.  They're not normal because... facts are stubborn things.  They won't get our "approval" for sinful behavior, because that would be asking us to deny our faith in God.  Ain't happening.

[prisonchaplain]

I'm posting on this string based largely on the headlined topic. A few years back I watched a rabbi being interviewed. He was asked what Christians could do to earn the trust of the Jewish community. His answer?  "Remove John's gospel from your scriptures." Of course, that's a non-starter. Likewise, now that gay marriages has been declared a human right by SCOTUS, the main target that remains, is for the traditional faiths to declare that same-sex attraction is normative, and that scriptures will be reinterpreted to permit any consensual, loving relationship. Again, for most faiths, that's a non-starter. The difference? I suspect the rabbi knew Christians would never give up the Gospel of John, and that his answer was intended to show the impossibility of full trust ever being accomplished between a Messiah-rejecting religion (from our POV) and a false-messiah-affirming one (from the Jewish POV). The LGBT activists, thanks to a few changes of heart in the Christian community, seem to really believe they can turn the sacred teachings of our faiths in their favor.

[anatess2]

3 minutes ago, changed said:

I have several in mine - some in my family have chosen to cut them out of their lives, will not speak their name, refuse to invite them to family gatherings, and because they have shut them out they do not understand the real issues.  

Those who have not shut them out - and this does not mean they condone or agree with their life style, it just means we still get them Christmas presents, we are friends on fb, we love to see them at family gatherings etc. etc.  - seeing the entire person (who is much more than their sexual identity)  ... and having gone through imperfect relationships myself - knowing a little of the pain, and therefore having more empathy, I can support them.

Let's say someone you know has cancer - or some other physical condition - are in an extreme amount of pain.  Would you support them if they decided to start taking mediation for their pain?  Now the church says don't take drugs .... but if someone is passing out, unconscious, suicidal, screaming → if that is honestly where they are without the drugs, are you going to tell them not to take drugs??  Perhaps if you had also felt that level of pain, if you had also been suicidal etc. ... you might not hate them for choosing to do drugs.  

 

For some, yes, it is a choice.

For others, no, it is NOT a choice.  It really is who they are - how they were born, how they have always been.  Everyone needs to understand this.  

For those whom it is a choice, often that choice comes after something VERY painful and hard to deal with.  These people need LOVE and lots of it.  Judging them, excluding them, hating them - they need help, they need love, they do not need to feel further victimized.  

We have some in our family.  They're treated like everyone else in the family... we tell them what is right versus what is wrong, we praise them when they do the right things, we smack them upside the head when they do the wrong things.  We help them when they get in trouble so they can choose the right things.  Usually, the problem is some people in the family want to say it's not the wrong thing to do, so the grandparents smack them upside the head too.

 

[Guest MormonGator]

16 minutes ago, changed said:

I have several in mine - some in my family have chosen to cut them out of their lives, will not speak their name, refuse to invite them to family gatherings, and because they have shut them out they do not understand the real issues.  

Those who have not shut them out - and this does not mean they condone or agree with their life style, it just means we still get them Christmas presents, we are friends on fb, we love to see them at family gatherings etc. etc.  - seeing the entire person (who is much more than their sexual identity)  ... and having gone through imperfect relationships myself - knowing a little of the pain, and therefore having more empathy, I can support them.

Let's say someone you know has cancer - or some other physical condition - are in an extreme amount of pain.  Would you support them if they decided to start taking mediation for their pain?  Now the church says don't take drugs .... but if someone is passing out, unconscious, suicidal, screaming → if that is honestly where they are without the drugs, are you going to tell them not to take drugs??  Perhaps if you had also felt that level of pain, if you had also been suicidal etc. ... you might not hate them for choosing to do drugs.  

 

For some, yes, it is a choice.

For others, no, it is NOT a choice.  It really is who they are - how they were born, how they have always been.  Everyone needs to understand this.  

For those whom it is a choice, often that choice comes after something VERY painful and hard to deal with.  These people need LOVE and lots of it.  Judging them, excluding them, hating them - they need help, they need love, they do not need to feel further victimized.  

Something to remember @changed: 

Maybe their sexuality has nothing to do with why they don't get along. I have a gay cousin who I haven't spoken to in ten years. I have another cousin who I think is closeted, and I haven't' spoken to him in about a decade either. At first, that sounds horrible. After all, shouldn't I be more accepting?

Here's the cool part: My college roommate was gay. So obviously, I don't have a problem with homosexuality. I dislike one because I think she's an unstable drama queen.  The other one I never had a "falling out with"-we just have vastly different lives and nothing at all in common. So for all you know, maybe their personality conflicts don't come from their sexual preference. 

You grow up a lot when you realize that being an unlikable person doesn't stop at someones sexuality. You don't have to like everyone you meet who is a member of an oppressed class. As a younger man I would excuse wretched behavior because after all, they have a lot to deal with. Gay/Straight/Transgender or whatever-people can still be selfish, unpleasant, or just outright jerks.  

Edited February 7, 2018 by MormonGator