estradling75 Posted April 30, 2018 Report Share Posted April 30, 2018 1 minute ago, JayKi said: It is the governments view that the parent forfeit their right to decide as they were not acting in best interest of the child. If I beat or neglect my child I forfeit those rights. Ok...provide proof that Alife parents were abusive.... You can't so knock off the unfounded allegations The only thing Alfie parents did was disagree with the doctors. It is standard practice for people to be able to seek out a second opinion on the medical practices. And it is many times considered a good and wise idea... But per the NHS and the British Government parents can not seek a second opinion on the care of their child... the moment they do not go with the what the NHS and government says they are unfit and forfeit their rights... Which means realistically they do not have any. If the NHS decided your kid needs to die, it dies. If they decide in needs a sex change they get a sex change, if they decide they need a hair cut they get a hair cut... the parents stopped having the power to make choices once the kid entered the system. As a doctor in training how can you possibility seek to justify not allowing a second opinion? Maybe one day when you have kids you will understand the utter horror of someone taking your kid away from you. BeccaKirstyn and Midwest LDS 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted April 30, 2018 Report Share Posted April 30, 2018 35 minutes ago, JayKi said: It is the governments view that the parent forfeit their right to decide as they were not acting in best interest of the child. If I beat or neglect my child I forfeit those rights. So according to JayKi, fighting for your child's life is equivalent to beating or neglecting him. Midwest LDS and Just_A_Guy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted April 30, 2018 Report Share Posted April 30, 2018 When a judicial miscarriage of justice is so abhorrent that even the loathsome CNN decries it, you can be quite sure that only fools and the damned (including damned fools) will continue to proclaim it as a reasonable thing. unixknight 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted April 30, 2018 Report Share Posted April 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Vort said: When a judicial miscarriage of justice is so abhorrent that even the loathsome CNN decries it, you can be quite sure that only fools and the damned (including damned fools) will continue to proclaim it as a reasonable thing. @Vort, my atheist friend, and CNN all agree on this issue. Wow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayKi Posted May 1, 2018 Report Share Posted May 1, 2018 2 hours ago, estradling75 said: Ok...provide proof that Alife parents were abusive.... You can't so knock off the unfounded allegations I was not accuse them It was just example of how parent can lose right to their child. 2 hours ago, estradling75 said: The only thing Alfie parents did was disagree with the doctors. It is standard practice for people to be able to seek out a second opinion on the medical practices. And it is many times considered a good and wise idea... But per the NHS and the British Government parents can not seek a second opinion on the care of their child... the moment they do not go with the what the NHS and government says they are unfit and forfeit their rights... Which means realistically they do not have any. If the NHS decided your kid needs to die, it dies. If they decide in needs a sex change they get a sex change, if they decide they need a hair cut they get a hair cut... the parents stopped having the power to make choices once the kid entered the system. No that isn't true there is court of appeal Alfie parent appeal was rejected but many are not. Parent of course still have a say. 2 hours ago, estradling75 said: As a doctor in training how can you possibility seek to justify not allowing a second opinion? There are second opinion within the NHS is not just one doctor decision. 2 hours ago, estradling75 said: Maybe one day when you have kids you will understand the utter horror of someone taking your kid away from you. I won't be having kid in England. I think I was misunderstood I am not saying there isn't a problem maybe with the law, I am no lawyer. I just say the government and medical professionals acted with accordance to the law and I agree with their decision. I don't know if law needs changing not my field. NeuroTypical 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted May 1, 2018 Report Share Posted May 1, 2018 13 hours ago, JayKi said: I think I was misunderstood I am not saying there isn't a problem maybe with the law, I am no lawyer. I just say the government and medical professionals acted with accordance to the law and I agree with their decision. I don't know if law needs changing not my field. No one here is blaming the Doctors for obeying the Laws of the land in which they live. People are complaining and pointing out the injustice, unfairness, and flat out evilness of how this set of laws exists and are being enforced. If I was in Britain I would be all over my law makers demanding a change. But I am not. I am in America but I hear all the time people stating how we need better healthcare here like they have over there and they want it here. Not at that price. Midwest LDS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted May 1, 2018 Report Share Posted May 1, 2018 14 minutes ago, estradling75 said: If I was in Britain I would be all over my law makers demanding a change. Good luck with that. The UK government won't move forward on Brexit, what makes you think they'll listen to the people this time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_Nephite Posted May 1, 2018 Report Share Posted May 1, 2018 21 minutes ago, MormonGator said: Good luck with that. The UK government won't move forward on Brexit, what makes you think they'll listen to the people this time? People used to say the same thing about the Berlin Wall coming down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted May 1, 2018 Report Share Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jedi_Nephite said: People used to say the same thing about the Berlin Wall coming down. People forgot about Charlie Gard (remember him?), and they'll forget about Alfie Evans. Blunt but true. But I wish you the best of luck. Edited May 1, 2018 by MormonGator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayKi Posted May 1, 2018 Report Share Posted May 1, 2018 3 hours ago, estradling75 said: No one here is blaming the Doctors for obeying the Laws of the land in which they live. People are complaining and pointing out the injustice, unfairness, and flat out evilness of how this set of laws exists and are being enforced. If I was in Britain I would be all over my law makers demanding a change. But I am not. I am in America but I hear all the time people stating how we need better healthcare here like they have over there and they want it here. Not at that price. I believe in England even you go Private for health care, the government interviene if you want to take sick child out of country. I know many case of brain tumours in Uk patients sent to America for specialist surgery. 2 hours ago, MormonGator said: Good luck with that. The UK government won't move forward on Brexit, what makes you think they'll listen to the people this time? The government in UK has changed laws after certain cases the Sarah Payne law is a example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted May 1, 2018 Report Share Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) There is something very much worse than a parent that thinks they know better than anyone else how to raise their children (what is best for them) - and that is someone that does not even know the child. The Traveler Edited May 1, 2018 by Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grunt Posted May 2, 2018 Report Share Posted May 2, 2018 On 4/30/2018 at 12:16 PM, JayKi said: No is wrong. You as parent are irrational, the child has degenerative neurological condition that means he will deteriorate until death. He won't have quality of life and the government is right it is better the child to die. Every day parents make this decision, do we turn off life support. The way is works is that child has human rights if you as parent violate them, the government will step in. If someone is abuse their child, you think is wrong for government agencies to step in? I never said about Jehovah's Witness Who steps in when the government abuses a child? Midwest LDS, unixknight and person0 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grunt Posted May 2, 2018 Report Share Posted May 2, 2018 On 4/30/2018 at 12:54 PM, JayKi said: Irrelevant the child is British the experts in Britain are what is taken in to account. Most rational parents know what to do and do it. Unfortunately, Alfie parents were not capable of acting in Alfie best interest. Not irrelevant at all when you're claiming your expertise comes from your education, not the country you live in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_Nephite Posted May 2, 2018 Report Share Posted May 2, 2018 On 5/1/2018 at 12:00 PM, MormonGator said: People forgot about Charlie Gard (remember him?), and they'll forget about Alfie Evans. Blunt but true. But I wish you the best of luck. If that's true, why do you think that is? My guess would be, at least in part, because of statements like this, " Good luck with that. The UK government won't move forward on Brexit, what makes you think they'll listen to the people this time?" While it may be likely that the UK government will not listen to the people, history has shown that stranger and more unexpected things have happened. However, history has also shown that just shrugging one's shoulders and saying, "What's the point? They're not going to listen to me" is definitely not going to change anything. Whether or not it's a battle that is known to be lost before it begins, some fights are just worth fighting for. anatess2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted May 3, 2018 Report Share Posted May 3, 2018 On 5/2/2018 at 4:56 PM, Jedi_Nephite said: If that's true, why do you think that is? My guess would be, at least in part, because of statements like this, " Good luck with that. The UK government won't move forward on Brexit, what makes you think they'll listen to the people this time?" While it may be likely that the UK government will not listen to the people, history has shown that stranger and more unexpected things have happened. However, history has also shown that just shrugging one's shoulders and saying, "What's the point? They're not going to listen to me" is definitely not going to change anything. Whether or not it's a battle that is known to be lost before it begins, some fights are just worth fighting for. No one is stopping you from fighting. Have at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unixknight Posted May 9, 2018 Report Share Posted May 9, 2018 (edited) I find it unsettling how often I saw the phrase "The parents were being irrational" used to justify cutting them out of the decision making process. Is there some evidence of this, or are they being declared 'irrational' purely because they didn't want to give up? I also found it disturbing when someone expressed gratitude for the idea of Jehovah's Witnesses' children having transfusions forced upon them. In both of these cases, the implicit assumptions are: The State knows best and The doctors involved are infallible... 2 sides of the same coin when you have government run healthcare. Frankly, a set of parents who will stop at nothing to care for their child are quite rational, unless there's some evidence to show otherwise. Frankly, a government that can decide your religious beliefs can be shoved aside in a case like this can justify pretty much anything. Are you ok with Jehovah's Witnesses being forced into transfusions For their kids? Ok. Fine. Just keep your mouth shut if the government ever decides that your beliefs shouldn't interfere with treatments like: Gender reassignment treatments Treatments based on fetal embryonic stem cells Abortion 'Cause the government can designate those things as being in the child's best interest and your religion shouldn't Trump that... Edited May 9, 2018 by unixknight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted May 9, 2018 Report Share Posted May 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, unixknight said: Frankly, a government that can decide your religious beliefs can be shoved aside in a case like this can justify pretty much anything. Are you ok with Jehovah's Witnesses being forced into transfusions For their kids? Ok. Fine. Just keep your mouth shut if the government ever decides that your beliefs shouldn't interfere with treatments like: Hey pal, someone already said that on this thread. Plagiarist. (totally playing. So glad you are back to posting @unixknight) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unixknight Posted May 9, 2018 Report Share Posted May 9, 2018 1 minute ago, MormonGator said: Hey pal, someone already said that on this thread. Plagiarist. (totally playing. So glad you are back to posting @unixknight) Hehe well most of us agree so in the absence of a truly original perspective I settle for nuance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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