What even is Judging???

[Fether]

What does this even mean!? I get so mad every time someone says “quit judging” or any variation of the term.

If I’m drinking coffee and a member of the church comes and says “you are sinning, you need to stop.” Are they judging or are they ministering? Does the answer change if the member is a bishop? Father? Friend? Prostitute?

If that is judging, than how the heck are we suppose to invite others to come unto Christ???

If this isn’t judging than what is?

[Sunday21]

I attended a Gospel Principles class. The teacher told us that if we knew that a sister had had an argument with her husband that we should jiggle her arm when she was about to take the sacrament and tell her not to take the sacrament. The class told her that we did not agree. No one but the teacher thought this was a good idea. 

[lostinwater]

Good question - that i don't have a good answer to.

Every person who says "don't judge" means something different.

For me, i think it involves assuming that person is a good person with good motives.  That's pretty hard to do - and i usually don't do it.  

Knowing that is weakness of mine, i think for me not judging then also involves keeping my mouth shut about 95% of the time.  And also going back and apologizing for 80% of the 5% of the time i say something and then realize i ought to not have said anything at all.

And i'm also trying to get better at not assuming that my perception of God and Jesus and what They want for that person is 100% accurate.

[zil]

3 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

I attended a Gospel Principles class. The teacher told us that if we knew that a sister had had an argument with her husband that we should jiggle her arm when she was about to take the sacrament and tell her not to take the sacrament. The class told her that we did not agree. No one but the teacher thought this was a good idea. 

IMO, that example is problematic because (1) the sacrament is an ordinance over which a specific person has stewardship.  Unless you're that person, I think you have no right to stop them.  (2) You cannot know enough about what's in that sister's head to know whether it's really a reason not to partake of the sacrament.

Now if she's you're friend, and you're chatting before church and she confides that she's not sure she should, then you can make suggestions about what she could do.

43 minutes ago, Fether said:

What does this even mean!? I get so mad every time someone says “quit judging” or any variation of the term. 

If I’m drinking coffee and a member of the church comes and says “you are sinning, you need to stop.” Are they judging or are they ministering? Does the answer change if the member is a bishop? Father? Friend? Prostitute?

If that is judging, than how the heck are we suppose to invite others to come unto Christ???

If this isn’t judging than what is?

When it comes specifically to "judging", Elder Oaks' Ensign article has become pretty much the standard on the topic.

One difficulty in discussing things like this is that people tend to take extreme views and fail to acknowledge that there's something in between.  The two extremes are presented as:

1) Self-righteous, nosy busybody goes snooping for dirt, telling the whole wide world and treats you with condescension.

2) The "look the other way", "pretend you didn't see", "mind your own business", "if they want my help they'll ask for it", "it's not my problem" crowd.

As far as I'm concerned, both of these are bad.  Somewhere in between is the flexibility to consider things like:

• Your (potential) relationship and how that can influence the situation
• The urgency of the situation
• The severity of the situation
• What you know vs. what you assume
• Your own intent
• The promptings of the Spirit
• Your stewardship
• Whatever myriad of other things I'm not thinking of

There are times when the friendly thing to do is offer to help someone to stop some bad behavior, or work on some good behavior - and you can do it without being #1 above.  There are times when that's not what you should do - but generally not for the reasons described in #2.  Figuring out the difference is called "life".

[Fether]

10 minutes ago, zil said:

When it comes specifically to "judging", Elder Oaks' Ensign article has become pretty much the standard on the topic.

One difficulty in discussing things like this is that people tend to take extreme views and fail to acknowledge that there's something in between.  The two extremes are presented as:

 1) Self-righteous, nosy busybody goes snooping for dirt, telling the whole wide world and treats you with condescension.

2) The "look the other way", "pretend you didn't see", "mind your own business", "if they want my help they'll ask for it", "it's not my problem" crowd.

As far as I'm concerned, both of these are bad.  Somewhere in between is the flexibility to consider things like:

• Your (potential) relationship and how that can influence the situation
• The urgency of the situation
• The severity of the situation
• What you know vs. what you assume
• Your own intent
• The promptings of the Spirit
• Your stewardship
• Whatever myriad of other things I'm not thinking of

There are times when the friendly thing to do is offer to help someone to stop some bad behavior, or work on some good behavior - and you can do it without being #1 above.  There are times when that's not what you should do - but generally not for the reasons described in #2.  Figuring out the difference is called "life".

I guess I’m mostly frustrated with others reaction to statements that even suggest that their daily ritual of watching Game of Thrones may ne destructive to their spiritual health.

If my ministering member came to me for the first time and the first thing he says is “Bro. Fether, your inconsistency of family home evening is spiritually destroying your family. You, your wife, and your 6 month old child need it as a pattern I’m their life. Without it you are failing them!” In the harshest way imaginable. I would say “I know... you are right” and I would begin to repent and seek to improve my FHEing.

How many people would be offended by that? I once watched a sister in the ward get offended and speak badly about a member because said member said in a talk that we should attend the temple weekly.

My frustration is more rooted in others getting offended than people “judging”

[zil]

6 minutes ago, Fether said:

My frustration is more rooted in others getting offended than people “judging” 

Yes, the flip side of the coin.

(A) I would never, ever worry about someone's reaction to a general statement - e.g. a lesson or talk I gave - or a forum post.  When someone makes a general statement to the masses, it's not judging, it's stating their knowledge / belief / understanding.  Take it or leave it, but to get all huffy over it is stupid.  (Some people appear to be stupid.)

A better approach (for the listener / reader) - but one that seems to require a rare(ish) talent - is to abstract what is said:  Speaker says, "We should all be attending the temple weekly."  When we abstract this, we get that consistent, frequent temple attendance is a good thing, and that we should analyze our temple-going habits to see if they are as consistent and frequent as we are able to manage.  We should not assume the speaker knows our temple habits, or is judging us, just that the speaker is giving a guideline (s)he thinks is worth aspiring to.

How you teach people to take what they hear and learn from it (rather than consider it rote instruction they must follow to the exact letter no matter what), I have no idea.  Humans are weirdos.

(B) It takes humility to have the view you described above - or at least a perspective that allows you to admit you're wrong, even if you like being wrong.  But you're right, few people would take that well.  Most people would take it better if they had a trusting relationship with their ministering brothers / sisters.  I did one interview this week wherein the sister told me that her then Home Teachers had worked with the family to encourage and help them improve in some way (family scripture study, maybe).  So this family trusted the HTers enough to share that they struggled with this, and to let their HTers help out (I'd guess with things like asking them how it's going, making suggestions, praying for them, encouraging them not to give up, etc.).  That, IMO, is what ministering to each other should look like.

[Jersey Boy]

3 hours ago, Fether said:

What does this even mean!? I get so mad every time someone says “quit judging” or any variation of the term.

If I’m drinking coffee and a member of the church comes and says “you are sinning, you need to stop.” Are they judging or are they ministering? Does the answer change if the member is a bishop? Father? Friend? Prostitute?

If that is judging, than how the heck are we suppose to invite others to come unto Christ???

If this isn’t judging than what is?

The Savior doesn’t teach us that his followers are never supposed to use the powers of spiritual discernment to access the worthiness of others  — something bishops and stake presidents must of necessity do all the time — but rather his warning is that we shouldn’t attempt to determine the worthiness and spirituality of others, with the end-goal of helping them to find forgiveness, healing and improvement, until we have first allowed the Spirit to reveal what is spiritually deficient and amiss within our own lives and then to obtain full forgiveness, healing and a high degree of spiritual empowerment through our faith in Christ and his atoning power. Once we have obtained said forgiveness, healing and empowerment, our ability to accurately discern the spiritual condition of others will be greatly magnified and our capacity to wisely and compassionately help them find their own forgiveness, healing and spiritual empowerment will be exponentially increased. Rather than a call to never use judgement to discern the spiritual condition of others, the Savior’s admonition is that we not try to help others to spiritually improve until we have straightened out our own lives by fully washing our own garments in the blood of Christ.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye. (Matthew 7)

Edited September 7, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[JohnsonJones]

Elder Oaks talk is excellent and the first one I turned to find when I read your question.

Another one, much older, also sheds some light on these areas (of which I need a huge improvement on myself).

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1972/07/judge-not-that-ye-be-not-judged?lang=eng

And another

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/10/the-righteous-judge?lang=eng

I am in the wrong this morning though.  My wife wanted to go to the Grocery store this morning to prepare (we have kids that come on weekends with grandkids) and also buy snacks for the smaller kids coming by later this evening.  I wanted to go to the local grocer because they have excellent donuts.  She wanted to go to the major grocery chain because she knows where everything is.  So, we decided we would go to the other's store because we love each other, but I was driving.  I drove to the major grocer and said, here we are.  She said she would refuse to get out until we went to the local grocer.  I then retorted, then you are just being foolish because I'm going home after this.  She laughed and got out, but I was being unrighteous there for several reason, of which not the least was my unrighteous judgment (even if teasing) of her.  She is never foolish, she is the most wonderful woman I know.

So, I obviously make mistakes on this, perhaps more than others.  I can't even make it through writing a post on this (it was in the middle of writing this, I had posted the Elder Tanner article when she said she wanted to go to me) without making judgments.  I have a long way to go.

 

 

[Guest MormonGator]

You are clearly free to judge whoever you'd like-but remember that the person whose behavior you are judging doesn't have to listen to or obey you. 

Edited September 7, 2018 by MormonGator

[Guest MormonGator]

I think it's also important to remember that while you are free to judge, don't be surprised when people don't care about your conclusions. People are free to judge my music taste, language, and illegal drug consumption-but their judgements probably won't stop my behavior, and some people are surprised at that. "What? You mean me not approving of your taste in music doesn't change your behavior?!" Um, no.  

I've noticed that some religious people (key word, some) struggle with this. They expect that their opinion carries tremendous weight with everyone else and then they are surprised/hurt/offended  when they meet someone who doesn't listen to them or particularly care what they say. 

Edited September 7, 2018 by MormonGator

[estradling75]

22 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I think it's also important to remember that while you are free to judge, don't be surprised when people don't care about your conclusions. People are free to judge my music taste, language, and illegal drug consumption-but their judgements probably won't stop my behavior, and some people are surprised at that. "What? You mean me not approving of your taste in music doesn't change your behavior?!" Um, no.  

I've noticed that some religious people (key word, some) struggle with this. They expect that their opinion carries tremendous weight with everyone else and then they are surprised/hurt/offended  when they meet someone who doesn't listen to them or particularly care what they say. 

Of course this also goes the other way...  The people who expect their behavior to met with everyone's approval.. and when they do not get it they seek any and everyway they can to force you do change your mind.  Just see all the accusation of hateful bigotry that comes from some non religious people (key word some and yes it can come from some religious people as well)

 

[Guest MormonGator]

24 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Of course this also goes the other way...  The people who expect their behavior to met with everyone's approval.. and when they do not get it they seek any and everyway they can to force you do change your mind.  Just see all the accusation of hateful bigotry that comes from some non religious people (key word some and yes it can come from some religious people as well)

 

Shockingly, we agree.  Isn't that wonderful? 

Edited September 7, 2018 by MormonGator

[Fether]

4 hours ago, MormonGator said:

You are clearly free to judge whoever you'd like-but remember that the person whose behavior you are judging doesn't have to listen to or obey you. 

My issue is if I approach bro. Jones, my ministering member I am assigned, and say “Bro Jones, you aren’t reading the Book of Mormon regularity. You need to start or you will lose out on many spiritual blessings” (Now please don’t assume this is all I would say. I’m being brief in order to avoid an 18 paragraph fictitious dialogue that may occur).

Bro Jones then accuses me of judging him. Well no, I’m not judging him, I’m telling him what prophets and Apostles have already said, only now it is more personal. They treat this as if I am sinning in my counsel to him that he needs to read the Book of Mormon.

Am I sinning when I tell my neighbor, who is an active member of the church, that he ought to attend the temple because he told me he hasn’t been in a year? Or if I say to him “Prophets have taught us we need to do FHE, you ought to do it because your family is missing out on it”.

[Fether]

That is a better intro post to this thread!

Am I sinning or ministering  when I say “Brother Tim! You need to pray with your family every night!”

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Fether said:

 (Now please don’t assume this is all I would say. I’m being brief in order to avoid an 18 paragraph fictitious dialogue that may occur).

 

I understand totally my friend.

2 minutes ago, Fether said:

Am I sinning when I tell my neighbor, who is an active member of the church, that he ought to attend the temple because he told me he hasn’t been in a year? Or if I say to him “Prophets have taught us we need to do FHE, you ought to do it because your family is missing out on it”.

No, you aren't sinning. Just don't expect him to listen to you or obey you. 

1 minute ago, Fether said:

“Brother Tim! You need to pray with your family every night!”

Anyone named Tim is pure evil, so telling Tims to do anything is hopeless 

[zil]

2 minutes ago, Fether said:

That is a better intro post to this thread!

Am I sinning or ministering  when I say “Brother Tim! You need to pray with your family every night!”

I don't think it's ever a sin.  But I also think there are ways that this idea can be presented that are better than others - make sure you're doing it in the best way you know how, so that it will most likely lead to helping.

I wonder if things were always as "mind your own business"y as they are in modern America, or if the saints were ever able to do the sort of thing you describe.  Think how much better off we would be if we were willing to work together on this sort of thing.  Lots of people have exercise or diet buddies - it's been shown to help you succeed if you have someone doing it with you, encouraging you, monitoring your progress, pressuring you to keep going / not back-slide.  Why in the world would spiritual exercise not be the same?

[Fether]

1 minute ago, zil said:

Lots of people have exercise or diet buddies - it's been shown to help you succeed if you have someone doing it with you, encouraging you, monitoring your progress, pressuring you to keep going / not back-slide.  Why in the world would spiritual exercise not be the same?

I think what you are suggesting is an eternal principle. This is why eternal marriage is so key. We can’t do it alone

[Vort]

44 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Anyone named Tim is pure evil, so telling Tims to do anything is hopeless 

This never gets old.

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

This never gets old.

Try being a Tim. It gets old very fast. 

Edited September 7, 2018 by MormonGator

[Anddenex]

17 hours ago, Fether said:

What does this even mean!? I get so mad every time someone says “quit judging” or any variation of the term.

Well, if we take this question literally to judge means to recognize something is not inline with a particular belief system. This belief system may be our theology, ideology, political partisan, etc... Our ability to judge requires our moral agency, which is God given. In this case, if we are coming unto Christ we are making judgements according to our current knowledge of the bounds the Lord has set.

We feel similar with regard to people who say "quit judging"; although, at times, it is proper that we quit judging. What bothers me is when a person makes a "righteous judgement" and people say "quit judging."  The irony of those who talk about "quit judging" and then make a judgement call to identify someone as "self-righteous." I have heard the statement, "Don't judge! You are being self-righteous." It requires a "judgement" to call someone "self-righteous."

17 hours ago, Fether said:

If I’m drinking coffee and a member of the church comes and says “you are sinning, you need to stop.” Are they judging or are they ministering? Does the answer change if the member is a bishop? Father? Friend? Prostitute?

This truly is a catch-22, or our society has made such a statement a catch-22. If someone is drinking coffee, they are breaking the Word of Wisdom (they are in sin). The Lord in scripture specifies he chastens whom he loves, and I think how we point out something is just as important (if not more) as pointing it out. In our Doctrine and Covenants we are informed of the following pertaining to a teachers duties, "The teacher’s duty is to watch over the church always, and be with and strengthen them; And see that there is no iniquity in the church, neither hardness with each other, neither lying, backbiting, nor evil speaking."

How is a young teacher supposed to help see that there is no iniquity in the Church (i.e. hardness, backbiting, etc...), and do we as members have the humility and meekness to accept the chastening from a 14 year old who sees (makes a judgement) of evil speaking during a ward meeting (because we all know this "NEVER" happens in wards), or will we be the prideful ones that say stop judging -- mind your place!

What is obvious in our day and age (myself included) is that we lack "meekness." Everyone is so easily offended at some thing or another, and when our weakness is pointed out instead of exercising patience, charity, and humility.

17 hours ago, Fether said:

If that is judging, than how the heck are we suppose to invite others to come unto Christ???

If this isn’t judging than what is?

I would think, how we judge, and how we act upon our judgement is what the Lord's wants from us. @Jersey Boy already mentioned the scripture in Matthew pertaining to judging, and I think the key in scripture is restoration. How we judge, we are judge. So the question we need to ask ourselves, is how do we want to be judged by the Almighty?

A peacemaker will judge differently than a person who has driven in a "stake" and said this is the bounds (mine own bounds).

If we are making judgements according to the bounds the Lord has set, those tend to be righteous judgements; although, if it is a bound the Lord has set how we make our judgements, and what we do with our judgements says more about our discipleship than almost anything else.

When it comes to judgements I think this scripture has merit, "Use boldness, but not overbearance; and also see that ye bridle all your passions, that ye may be filled with love; see that ye refrain from idleness."

If we correlate this scripture with Matthew, then I think we have even more of what the Lord was expressing.

I think though we all need to be aware of unrighteous judgements that come from the natural human, the overbearing human, the overly passionate human, etc... If we truly want to become disciples of Jesus Christ.

[NeuroTypical]

Elder Oaks solved all this for us back 20 years ago.  Read and be happy:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1999/08/judge-not-and-judging

[Anddenex]

41 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Elder Oaks solved all this for us back 20 years ago.  Read and be happy:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1999/08/judge-not-and-judging

I am not sure, its really just his "opinion" @NeuroTypical

(Anddenex exits stage left very quickly)

If my exiting stage left quickly, and my smiley wasn't clear enough -- I am just having fun from other post topics.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Anddenex

[Traveler]

19 hours ago, Fether said:

What does this even mean!? I get so mad every time someone says “quit judging” or any variation of the term.

If I’m drinking coffee and a member of the church comes and says “you are sinning, you need to stop.” Are they judging or are they ministering? Does the answer change if the member is a bishop? Father? Friend? Prostitute?

If that is judging, than how the heck are we suppose to invite others to come unto Christ???

If this isn’t judging than what is?

I believe the main problem is the evolution in the meaning of words.  I believe it would have been much better if the modern version of ancient scriptures currently used condemn rather than judge.  But there is another problem in interpreting scripture - and that is - why should ancient scripture be be translated?  Especially if it is not done by commandment from G-d.  For me I have a big problem with anyone that thinks the English version of sacred ancient scripture is flawless.  I can handled inspired - but not G-d breathed.  Rather I am more comfortable with those that study scripture and translation methods for ancient text and whenever there is a question - Take it to G-d and expect an answer through the "GIFT" and power of the Holy Ghost.

 

The Traveler

[Midwest LDS]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

My issue is if I approach bro. Jones, my ministering member I am assigned, and say “Bro Jones, you aren’t reading the Book of Mormon regularity. You need to start or you will lose out on many spiritual blessings” (Now please don’t assume this is all I would say. I’m being brief in order to avoid an 18 paragraph fictitious dialogue that may occur).

Bro Jones then accuses me of judging him. Well no, I’m not judging him, I’m telling him what prophets and Apostles have already said, only now it is more personal. They treat this as if I am sinning in my counsel to him that he needs to read the Book of Mormon.

Am I sinning when I tell my neighbor, who is an active member of the church, that he ought to attend the temple because he told me he hasn’t been in a year? Or if I say to him “Prophets have taught us we need to do FHE, you ought to do it because your family is missing out on it”.

I understand your frustration, as it can be especially difficult to talk to others about sin in a way that wouldn't be considered judging by some people. I wouldn't worry about general statements. If you say "God teaches adultery is wrong" and someone is offended by that and calls it judging, that's on them and probabbly shows that their life is falling out of harmony with the gospel. But, in a one on one setting, what about when you say to your ministering family "I noticed you guys are drinking coffee, that's against the Word of Wisdom and it's wrong"? That's a lot more likely to lead to accusations of judging in a negative context and it might be closer to the truth depending on how it's said and why. A personal hypothetical example if you will. I don't react well to someone walking up to me and telling me I'm wrong unless they are in a leadership position. Bishop Jones comes up and says "Midwest I heard you saying you like Game of Thrones. That show is pornographic and you shoud not watch it." I'll probabbly listen to him. Conversly Brother Jones comes up to me in the hallway, he overheard me saying the same thing, and tells me essentially the same thing but he never says more than hi to me outside of this conversation. I'd tell him to shut up and stay out of my business. I shouldn't react that strongly, and afterwards I may feel bad, but I do not react well to random people telling me how to run my life, even if they have good intentions. That would be a personal failing of mine, but it shows the dangers of calling out other people. Criticism I may accept from a leader, family member, or close friend would go in one ear and out the other from someone else. That's why personally, if I have a ministering family member or non close friend or acquaintance I'm worried about, someone I don't feel comfortable boldly calling out because I would react badly in the same situation, I try to either teach correct principles as Jospeh Smith taught, or if I'm really concerned I'll bring it up with the Bishop. I just feel like loudly calling out people we don't see very often can easily become counter productive to our goal of saving their souls.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Midwest LDS

[Vort]

42 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

58 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Elder Oaks solved all this for us back 20 years ago.  Read and be happy:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1999/08/judge-not-and-judging

I am not sure, its really just his "opinion" @NeuroTypical

Elder Christofferson said it's okay to be judgy.