jewels8

water into wine

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I appreciate the insight, even though I don't know why he wouldn't just follow a more spirit of the law and abstain from all liquor all togrther, I guess we just know how bad it is now.  I would think a prophet would avoid even the appearance of all evil; I have respect for people who are like that

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7 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

Historical context is important here.

At the time that what we know as the Word of Wisdom was given, the language used was to prohibit "strong drink." People of that time would have understood that to mean distilled liquors, such as whiskey and rum. "Soft drink" or "soft liquors" were broadly understood to be fermented liquors, like beer and wine. It wasn't until the 1900s that the Church would classify fermented alcohols into the prohibited class.

So, a very valid way to describe it is that Joseph wasn't commanded not to drink any alcohol--he was commanded not to drink some alcohols. A commandment he dutifully followed, so far as we are aware.

At some points, the favorite Mormon drink of today, root beer was also a little fermented if I understand correctly!

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16 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

I agree with you.  But that doesn't mean the spirit turns tail and runs if evil is near by.   We are talking about the third member of the Godhead here.  I am sure the spirit is not afraid of satan nor his minions.

It is not a matter of fear.  But I will say this - there are boundaries (darkness) that surround Satan and his followers that the Holy Ghost nor the light of the Holy Ghost will not cross.

 

The Traveler

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2 minutes ago, jewels8 said:

That makes sense, but I just see no good point in drinking at all, even back then.

There wasn't much choice back then, given that they didn't have the technology we do. Water was filthy, so was their version of milk. 

Edited by MormonGator

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7 minutes ago, jewels8 said:

That makes sense, but I just see no good point in drinking at all, even back then.

 

5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

There wasn't much choice back then, given that they didn't have the technology we do. Water was filthy, so was their version of milk. 

As I've dug into this further, most of my reading points to this being something of a myth.  This article is a decent primer.

That isn't to say that beer wasn't safer. The fact that it is boiled will generally eliminate most of the biological contaminants.

Some differences to consider: modern beer likely has a much higher alcohol content than ancient beers (unverifiable reddit thread, judge for yourself). With modern beer, a person could reach a BAC of 0.08% with three 12 oz. beers in an hour (ish...from a fully sober start...your mileage may vary...check this for adjustments for weight). Ancient beers would have required about three times that much.  That's almost three quarters of a gallon of beer in one hour!  So it could take quite the effort for a person to get sloppy drunk off of beer.

Wine, on the other hand, seems to be a completely different issue.  I won't cite everything, but I've seen some claims that ancient wine had more alcohol content than modern wines.  Apparently, the yeast/bacteria needed to ferment wine grow on the skins of the grapes. So the fermentation process isn't as complex if you want to produce a high alcohol drink as it would be for beer.  It's pretty clear that Biblical figures were aware of the hazards of over indulgence (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_in_the_Bible). At the same time, there didn't seem to be much concern that Noah was off his rocker drunk (if you take the record literally).

Some civilizations handled this in different ways.  Apparently there were laws as far back as Hammurabi against public drunkeness.  One Chinese emperor would have drunkards publicly executed. Romans and Greeks, for a while, diluted their wine with water to prevent inebriation. In the late Roman Empire, one emperor had half of the vineyards destroyed and levied enormous taxes on pure wines to prevent their overuse.

So it seems like it boils down to culture. It just wasn't a big deal to people back then (or now, for that matter).  So yeah, it seems strange if you look at history from our contemporary position.  But that's the thing about continued revelation...it bring commandments that are tailored to the conditions in which we live. That means not everyone in the course of history will be expected to live by the same commandments.

----------------------------------------------

For a point of reference, this article  claims it would take about 20 oz of wine to reach a BAC of 0.08% (on average...give or take). That's about two thirds of the amount of modern beer, and a little more than a fifth of the quantity of ancient beer it would take to reach 0.08%.  

And, take not, 0.08% isn't exactly sloppy drunk.  Here's a fun article  about a group of coworkers who went out to gather anecdotal evidence about what it feels like to be at 0.08%.  In some cases, they say they felt tipsy, in some they say they were surprised they were above the limit at which they could legally drive, and others say they could feel the buzz, but felt they could make the drive home in a pinch (I'm not endorsing that)--in other words, they didn't feel their judgment and response times were impaired (on their own subjective interpretation...this isn't a scientific study, please don't treat me like you expect it to be). But in no case had they become belligerent, blacked out, or in the realm of a public nuisance.

So, realistically, it takes some time and effort to reach a truly drunken state. If you've never had alcohol, you probably don't have a frame of reference for why civilizations have tolerated moderate drinking habits. Until very recently, inebriation really wasn't a big deal except with the most extreme cases (i.e., alcoholism).  What really changed everything was the introduction of the automobile, where even low levels of inebriation can have catastrophic effects.  Before the automobile, a BAC of 0.08% wasn't enough for you to even worry about losing your sandal on the walk home.

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@MormonGator

From the time I was born until I was 18 I drank fresh from the cow milk aka RAW milk. It was never *pasteurized*, always *raw* and it was NOT filthy. The milk was obtained from the cows the exact same way as in Joseph Smith's time, milked by human hands from the cows teats into buckets that were probably cleaner than you would imagine. When raw milk goes sour, it is still very usable. Sour milk is used for a variety of cooking uses, sour cream, cottage cheese, cheeses, clobbered milk. You get cream from raw milk, and from cream you get butter and butter milk.

As long as the cow(s) are healthy, the items used when milking and separating the cream from the milk, pouring the milk into smaller containers to place in a refrigerator all are clean and as sterile as one can get them - then RAW milk is NOT filthy or unhealthy to consume. All of our ancestors thrived on it.

Up until my pancreas was damaged by new Rx of high blood pressure pills, I got my cream from a small dairy farmer about 35 miles from me. I asked for and got the cream BEFORE he pasteurized the milk. I got a gallon of cream AND a gallon of UN-pasteurized milk. Plus his little dairy was 100% GMO free. At the grocery store for a gallon of GMO free/Organic PASTEURIZED milk I paid 6.99$. The cream was 4.99$ for a pint. I paid the dairy farmer 10.00$ for both!! It would have been 12.00$ but I supplied my own glass gallon jars with plastic lids.

As for filthy water, out of a well it is pretty much clean. But it depends on where your creek/river/stream water comes from or what is living in it (beavers are a great source of bad, nasty things) or being dumped into it. On the 5 acres I lived on for 8 years the well water was pure, BUT from Sept to March I had to get my water from a creek that the beavers lived in, thus I had to filter it and make sure the cartridge could filter out all those nasty pathogens and germs.  Boiling it just wasn't that good of an option. Once our well was producing enough for us to disengage the pump from the creek, we turned off the well, emptied nearly all of it, then Hubby #1 climbed inside wearing his hip waders and scrubbed the inside of the 1500 gallon holding tank. From the bottom to the top - can't remember what he used but it was what the county extension office told him to use. He scrubbed, then emptied that out and with a hose attached directly to the well pump, he rinsed it all out, then filled it up to his shins, and scrubbed once again with bleach water. THAT is why he wore hip waders to protect himself. That all got rinsed and drained out, then we let the holding tank fill with well water. While he was cleaning and draining that drained water went through our pipes to the house - only instead of entering the house, we had it drain out into our meadow of a yard. While he was cleaning the holding tank, I was draining and cleaning the hot water heater.  Once the holding tank was 3/4 of the way full we added 1 gallon of bleach. THAT was the only bleach we ever added. We allowed half of that to drain through the lines, then stopped the flow, hooked the line up to the house and allowed the holding tank to fill completely from the well.

Nothing has ever tasted as sweet and pure as that well water! Having to drink city water now - well it is so full of chlorine it gags me. I filter it with a Brita pitcher and filter that is for chlorine mostly. My new refrigerator side by side with freezer has an ice and water dispenser and the filter for that gets rid of the chlorine also.

 

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24 minutes ago, Iggy said:

Nothing has ever tasted as sweet and pure as that well water! Having to drink city water now - well it is so full of chlorine it gags me. I filter it with a Brita pitcher and filter that is for chlorine mostly. My new refrigerator side by side with freezer has an ice and water dispenser and the filter for that gets rid of the chlorine also.

 

That is a good solution. Where I live we have a city well that offers both pure water and processed water. 

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Interesting.  IEveryone is so different as to what rhey can handle, be it water, milk, etc.  I have heard that indians cannot handle alcohol well, and I am part indian.  I have never had any, nor has my husband and kids.  My sister has, and she and her son are recovering alcoholics

 

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My first husband's mother is pure Japanese - she never drank a drop of an alcoholic beverage. His father was half Native America and half Irish, his father was a cruel, mean and nasty drunk. The Indian side of my husband was prevalent in that he got drunk easily, the Irish side of him LIKED drinking and being drunk. It was a Lose-Lose situation. Even his mother disliked his drinking. Yes he was an alcoholic, but HE refused to see that. His two sisters loved their wine, and they drank a lot of it. They too were alcoholics.

When I met my MIL's sisters and parents and we went out to dinner the only people ordering alcoholic drinks were my two SIL's and my husband. No one else in her extended family drank. She had 8 sisters that I met and had dinner with. It was a pre-wedding/reception dinner with just the brides family. The next night was with the grooms family. I opted NOT to go - too many people for me to assimilate.

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7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I'm very glad drinking raw milk worked for you. I would strongly suggest people look at both sides of the raw milk debate before they decide to introduce it to their diet and body. 

If where you obtain the raw milk is from someone who does not keep their cow(s) healthy, and are not clean from cleansing down the cows teats and their own hands, to the bucket to collect the milk, to the chilled room (not refrigerated but 65 to 50 degrees) to allow the cream to separate, and then pour into the gallons, quarts and/or pints to then put in the refrigerator. There is no threat of any contamination or illness such as E coli.

It is such a shame that those people born after 1980 have no clue where their food actually comes from. Like dairies, ranches and farms. NOT the grocery store. Those steaks, ground beef, bacon, ham, chops and roasts come from living Beef cattle and Hogs. Eggs come from living chickens. Etc. Etc.

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2 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

It just wasn't a big deal to people back then

Back then, drunk driving involved your chariot, wagon, horse, donkey, or camel - while those (especially the chariot/wagon) could indeed cause damage, probably not nearly so much as a modern automobile.  And if you were drunk while using weapons, you probably weren't nearly as dangerous as a drunk with a (modern) gun (the "probably"s feel like gross understatement, but I haven't actually done research outside my own logic on this).

So yeah, between those and "conspiring men" mentioned in D&C 89, it does seem like this is specific counsel for our times.

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Not to start an argument - I do not drink soda or alcohol - but it is my impression that sodas (especially caffeinated soda) are more detrimental to the long term health than the same amounts of alcohol (not hard liquor) - especially with children.  I am quite sure that parents that addict their children to soda during their adolescents do them a great disservice that borders on abuse. 

 

The Traveler

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2 hours ago, Traveler said:

Not to start an argument - I do not drink soda or alcohol - but it is my impression that sodas (especially caffeinated soda) are more detrimental to the long term health than the same amounts of alcohol (not hard liquor) - especially with children.

I am no apologist for soda pop -- I honestly can't think of one significant redeeming quality about it, even though I do drink the stuff -- but I heartily disbelieve that it is "more detrimental to long term health than the same amounts of alcohol". No way.

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8 minutes ago, Vort said:

I am no apologist for soda pop -- I honestly can't think of one significant redeeming quality about it, even though I do drink the stuff -- but I heartily disbelieve that it is "more detrimental to long term health than the same amounts of alcohol". No way.

My dad worked for a beer company.  I can confirm.  Beer has no sugar and it has anti-oxidants so people who look at Nutrition labels think it is healthier than soda.  So, sure, one can of beer is healthier than one can of soda.  What the Nutritional Label doesn't tell you is that beer is treated by your body as a toxin and therefore it puts a ginormous strain on your liver.  Might not make much of a difference with just one can... more than that though, and your liver is going to expand to the size of the Titanic and kill you.

Edited by anatess2

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

I am no apologist for soda pop -- I honestly can't think of one significant redeeming quality about it, even though I do drink the stuff -- but I heartily disbelieve that it is "more detrimental to long term health than the same amounts of alcohol". No way.

Agree with @Vort 100%. Wow, I've never said that before. I need a shower. Yuk. 

Ask yourself this-would you rather your daughter takes a ride with someone who drank three bottles of Pepsi or three bottles of beer? If you say beer, you don't have a clue. 

Edited by MormonGator

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On 10/2/2018 at 9:27 AM, MarginOfError said:

Wine, on the other hand, seems to be a completely different issue.  I won't cite everything, but I've seen some claims that ancient wine had more alcohol content than modern wines.  Apparently, the yeast/bacteria needed to ferment wine grow on the skins of the grapes. So the fermentation process isn't as complex if you want to produce a high alcohol drink as it would be for beer.

Excellent post. As for wine, another interesting tidbit I picked up reading a series of articles some years ago was that ancient wine tasted horrible, like salty vinegar (or much worse). I have long ago forgotten where I read that, but it's easy enough to find articles explaining the general principle that ancient wine was pretty awful.

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On 9/29/2018 at 2:52 AM, jewels8 said:

We know that Jesus was and is without sin.  But why then, would he use the priesthood to turn water into an alcoholic beverage?  Or was the wine just grape juice?  I would definitely feel it would be sinful today if someone turned water into wine.  Has anyone else ever been bothered by this or puzzled by it as a child growing up or as an adult?  I would not feel right drinking wine, having it around, or if I were a goddess I would not feel comfortable performing a miracle like that

Okay. The first times after founding the Church of Christ it was a usual thing to have some wine at the ceremonies. But wine was expensive and had to be bought from the "Gentiles". Thus, and no longer being dependent of those ressources, once it was said (by the Prophet) that water would do it. But maybe Jesus turned wine into water, or only made the guests in that house in Galilee only think or  believe it was wine, and thy all wouldn't have been aware of this...? In spite of all your deep thoughts, , this idea maybe might calm you down.  t1921.gif

Edited by OnePassenger

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Am I wrong in assuming that when the water was changed to wine that there wasn't sufficient time to ferment?

Either way, whether the wine was fermented or not, what matters is the purpose behind the miracle. Talmage weighs in HERE (see the section on The Miracle at Cana in Galilee). I suspect there is powerful symbolism in the wine.

And, lest we mistakenly believe that God may give seemingly contradictory commandments, recall that God commanded Hosea to marry a harlot. (Hos. 1:2)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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4 hours ago, Traveler said:

Not to start an argument - I do not drink soda or alcohol - but it is my impression that sodas (especially caffeinated soda) are more detrimental to the long term health than the same amounts of alcohol (not hard liquor) - especially with children.  I am quite sure that parents that addict their children to soda during their adolescents do them a great disservice that borders on abuse. 

 

The Traveler

I think that's a huge disservice to the detrimental effects of alcohol. It's a carcinogen, it's a psychoactive drug that plagues humanity, even if you only account for poor decisions made while under it's influence. It can straight up kill you. Dead. That's pretty darn adverse to your long-term health.

I've never drank a 2-liter of soda and woke up the next day wishing I had died because the hangover is so severe (Yes, I was a bad teenaged boy who drank for a couple of years, I actually know what it's like) The worst you can say about soda is it's sugary (hello diet sugar free soda) and it's slightly acidic, maybe replacing what could be a good and nourishing drink in its place. Even the caffeine content of your typical cola is a drop in the water up against coffee and energy drinks. It takes something like 10 12 oz cans in one day to hit the "recommended maximum of caffeine for a healthy individual".

I mean yeah, soda is not exactly the best thing around, particularly the sugary kind. But I don't think it holds a candle to alcohol.

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