What's "Anti-Mormon" to you?

[Fether]

8 hours ago, lostinwater said:

i've listened to a *lot* of the MormonStories.  There are some where i think the attitudes are overly vindictive and accusatory.  But the vast majority, in my opinion at least, tell the stories of very authentic people who are reeling and trying to piece together a view of the world and God after theirs was shattered into tiny little pieces.  That said, it's not something i go around touting to every member i come in contact with.  

My biggest issue with MormonStories is that they seek out those that have been excommunicated. I listened to his podcast on Dusty, a homosexual man set to be tried at a disciplinary counsel. The host got him all Riled up about the whole thing and started giving out the time and date of where the counsel was going to be and told everyone that they should go and “support”. A similar thing happened with Jeremy Runnels and it was a bunch of people cheering him on after he said “I excommunicated the stake president and resigned from the church”.

Im sorry but this does t seem to be pro Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to me at all. You look at their comment sections in their videos and they are all full of either “we love you!” Or “The church sucks” comments.

Want to know what kind of organization MormonStories is? Look at  it’s followers

8 hours ago, lostinwater said:

don't know if there are answers.  This Church tangles itself up in the most intimate relationships human beings have with one another, in how people view themselves and everything around them.  That's really, beautifully, wondrously good when it works, and entirely catastrophic when it doesn't.  

There are answers, and they are GREAT answers. There aren’t ANY holes on the answers the church has for their questions. The whole backbone that supports these antis (or “unorthodox”) is the premise that the church is hiding things or directing its members away from these supposed “problems”. I read the entire CES letter and had a strong answer for all the questions he had. The reason people don’t accept them is because they don’t believe in God at all. It simply comes down to that. Every example of an answer to a “hard” question being rejected is because they believe in man more than God.

They deny God’s hand was in the Book of Abraham, plural marriage, blacks and the priesthood, women’s divine roles, and all myriad of other topics. They choose to believe that man’s evil and manipulating influence is the main driver for this.

Edited December 10, 2018 by Fether

[lostinwater]

2 hours ago, Grunt said:

@lostinwater I'm sorry you have to deal with this.  I'm unfamiliar with your story but I'm unsure why polyandry would shake your faith.  

Thanks @Grunt.  Very kind of you.

There are bits of this that are my story, but this is more a portrayal of the average person i know who has left.  And polyandry is just one tiny example of the things that combined, end up breaking someone's "shelf".   And i didn't mean that post to come across with a 'woe are the people who have left' ring to it.  Everyone has things that devastate them.  But from what i've seen, it's feelings similar to this one that most people who have left are dealing with.  And of course, most of them, like any of us unreasonable human beings would, deal with that pain in ways that just make it worse.  (ie going out of their way to tell members how stupid they are for believing in X, Y, Z - and get upset when members don't agree with us).

[lostinwater]

3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Just MY thoughts on the matter.

Thanks @JohnsonJones

And your posts are never long-winded.  They are thorough!  

i tend to think that most people who are members know that things happened.  i did.  But i didn't know how things happened.  i tend to think that's the difference with polyandry.  However, that's just one of a long long list that most people try to reconcile.  

But in a way, i think that even if members knew (assuming they don't, which may or may not be true) the how, it still wouldn't make a difference.  People i think create reasons why what they feel makes logical sense.  And in the spiritual domains, it seems like there are enough people supplying logical reasons to justify any conclusion one happens to want to reach.  FairMormon and it's opposites both are quite talented in painting pictures that lead one to totally opposite conclusions.  

But i agree with you, the people who know the most absolutely are usually the ones who know the least about what they claim to know absolutely.  The more i search for reasons for absolutes, the more i find mitigating circumstances.  And really, the more i think that Pilate asked one of the best questions ever, when he said "What is truth?".  

PS - i asked my dad, and he said it was OK and totally sanctioned to talk about football in priesthood, as long as you are a BYU fan.... .  Can you confirm this?  

[lostinwater]

3 hours ago, Fether said:

My biggest issue with MormonStories is that they seek out those that have been excommunicated. I listened to his podcast on Dusty, a homosexual man set to be tried at a disciplinary counsel. The host got him all Riled up about the whole thing and started giving out the time and date of where the counsel was going to be and told everyone that they should go and “support”. A similar thing happened with Jeremy Runnels and it was a bunch of people cheering him on after he said “I excommunicated the stake president and resigned from the church”.

 Im sorry but this does t seem to be pro Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to me at all. You look at their comment sections in their videos and they are all full of either “we love you!” Or “The church sucks” comments.

 Want to know what kind of organization MormonStories is? Look at  it’s followers

There are answers, and they are GREAT answers. There aren’t ANY holes on the answers the church has for their questions. The whole backbone that supports these antis (or “unorthodox”) is the premise that the church is hiding things or directing its members away from these supposed “problems”. I read the entire CES letter and had a strong answer for all the questions he had. The reason people don’t accept them is because they don’t believe in God at all. It simply comes down to that. Every example of an answer to a “hard” question being rejected is because they believe in man more than God.

 They deny God’s hand was in the Book of Abraham, plural marriage, blacks and the priesthood, women’s divine roles, and all myriad of other topics. They choose to believe that man’s evil and manipulating influence is the main driver for this.

Thank-you.

i don't know.  i mean, the Catholics have answers to criticisms that could be launched about infant baptism, or purgatory, or their view of the trinity, or indulgences.  And they'll say they are great answers also.

From where i sit, you might be right.  But the Catholics might be right.  Or the Lutherans might be right.  Everyone's got their own arsenals of scriptures, and doctrine, and examples of miracles, and spiritual experiences, and apologists that prove absolutely that they are the right one.

i've sort of given up trying to figure it out absolutely.  Since they all seem to agree that being kind is a good thing, that's what i attempt to follow as a religion of sorts (yes, you are right that i don't live up to it).  When the hate and indignation fades away, that's where i usually see most people who've left end up, also.  But you are right, while that initial pain is being processed, they are way too vocal about it from a member's perspective - in the comments sections, ex-member boards, etc.,  i wish they wouldn't do that.  It just makes it all worse.  

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

Thanks @JohnsonJones

And your posts are never long-winded.  They are thorough!  

[JohnsonJones]

46 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

Thanks @JohnsonJones

And your posts are never long-winded.  They are thorough!  

i tend to think that most people who are members know that things happened.  i did.  But i didn't know how things happened.  i tend to think that's the difference with polyandry.  However, that's just one of a long long list that most people try to reconcile.  

But in a way, i think that even if members knew (assuming they don't, which may or may not be true) the how, it still wouldn't make a difference.  People i think create reasons why what they feel makes logical sense.  And in the spiritual domains, it seems like there are enough people supplying logical reasons to justify any conclusion one happens to want to reach.  FairMormon and it's opposites both are quite talented in painting pictures that lead one to totally opposite conclusions.  

But i agree with you, the people who know the most absolutely are usually the ones who know the least about what they claim to know absolutely.  The more i search for reasons for absolutes, the more i find mitigating circumstances.  And really, the more i think that Pilate asked one of the best questions ever, when he said "What is truth?".  

PS - i asked my dad, and he said it was OK and totally sanctioned to talk about football in priesthood, as long as you are a BYU fan.... .  Can you confirm this?  

Not a BYU fan (actually normally cheer against them) so I think I'd still be a heretic as per your Dad.

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Not a BYU fan (actually normally cheer against them) so I think I'd still be a heretic as per your Dad.

Anti-Mormon by definition.

[JohnsonJones]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

Anti-Mormon by definition.

I do cheer for UGA.  It's colors are similar to the UofU.

If you don't bleed red, you must be dead.

Though I suppose a BYU cheer would be...

If you don't see Blue I feel sorry for U!

@MormonGator can fill in what those crazy Florida fans say.

Edited December 10, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[Vort]

Just now, JohnsonJones said:

Though I suppose a BYU cheer would be...

If you don't see Blue I feel sorry for U!

Let's all sing hail to BYU,
Where the girls are girls, and the guys are, too!

[JohnsonJones]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

Let's all sing hail to BYU,
Where the girls are girls, and the guys are, too!

LOL.

Can't beat that one.

[Guest MormonGator]

19 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I do cheer for UGA.  It's colors are similar to the UofU.

If you don't bleed red, you must be dead.

Though I suppose a BYU cheer would be...

If you don't see Blue I feel sorry for U!

@MormonGator can fill in what those crazy Florida fans say.

" We are the boys from old Florida,
F-L-O-R-I-D-A.
Where the girls are the fairest,
The boys are the squarest …
Of any old state down our way.
We are all strong for old Florida
Down where the old Gators play.
In all kinds of weather …
We'll all stick together…
For F-L-O-R-I-D-A! " 

[lostinwater]

11 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Not a BYU fan (actually normally cheer against them) so I think I'd still be a heretic as per your Dad.

i actually usually hope BYU will lose too (especially to University of Utah).  But mainly because i buy him season tickets for them and i hope that, after several years in a row of losing to teams like UofU, that the tickets will get less expensive!  

Note: the losing to University of Utah part i'm told has worked, the hoped for corresponding decrease in season ticket prices has not. 

[mordorbund]

6 hours ago, Fether said:

There are answers, and they are GREAT answers. There aren’t ANY holes on the answers the church has for their questions.

CS Lewis has pointed out that one of the challenges of apologetics (defending the faith) is that you begin to lose the mysteries and cram God quite tightly in a box so you can have all the answers. Frankly, there are some things we still don't have the answers for, and cannot without further revelation. 

[Fether]

4 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

CS Lewis has pointed out that one of the challenges of apologetics (defending the faith) is that you begin to lose the mysteries and cram God quite tightly in a box so you can have all the answers. Frankly, there are some things we still don't have the answers for, and cannot without further revelation. 

I think a better response is that the church or many of its defenders (fairmormon) have completely acceptable answers to all the questions 

[The Folk Prophet]

50 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

CS Lewis has pointed out that one of the challenges of apologetics (defending the faith) is that you begin to lose the mysteries and cram God quite tightly in a box so you can have all the answers. Frankly, there are some things we still don't have the answers for, and cannot without further revelation. 

Fortunately, the antis are typically not smart enough to come up with the really hard questions.

[mirkwood]

3 hours ago, Vort said:

Anti-Mormon by definition.

Proud to be anti

 

[Madam_Mim]

On ‎12‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 8:25 PM, Jane_Doe said:

*thumbs up here*

Intent is the big deal.  If something is sent with the intent of "and you STILL believe this load of hogwash", then that's mocking and not of Christ.  I applaud you if that's honestly not your intention.  

 

I may not respect religion but I respect my religious friends. That's why I don't shove church-jokes or criticism in their face. When a friend posts something about religion on Facebook that I find... strange (which happens a lot), I just don't comment on it. But believe me - it takes a lot of self-control to keep my mouth shut sometimes. If I read about a little kid surviving cancer because of god, I want to yell "why did he give her cancer in the first place!" and ask a hundred questions to hear why they are so convinced this was god. But then I try to remain calm and remind myself that their faith gives them so much and it's not hurting anyone, so I just ignore it. 

But sometimes I'd really like to ask questions if for example prophets say things I don't find ok. If something seems to be obviously wrong and hurtful it would be hard for me to accept that a friend of mine supports that. So of course, in that case I would ask if she actually agrees with his message and would explain why this seems wrong in my opinion. So I guess that would be anti-mormon then because I think critisizing a prophet is a big no-go.

 

Someone mentioned Fairmormon and MormonThink. It can be quite entertaining to visit both sites to get "information" on the same topic. Mormonthink sees a problem in almost everything while Fairmormon is like "nothing to see here - this isn't problematic at ALL!". They both try so hard :D 

I don't really care about their topics. But I really enjoyed watching tons of Mormonstories. Some stories were very touching and I can't imagine how crushing it must be to feel like you've wasted so much time and energy on something that isn't what you thought it was. That's why I can understand that some Ex-LDS-members feel anger towards the church. I guess it feels like some kind of betrayal to them? I've never been very religious, so I can't really relate. 

What I found strange was when they mentioned that none of their family members or friends asked about their reasons for leaving the church. Why is that? If someone close to me changes his life so drastically, I'd want to know why. 

 

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:

What I found strange was when they mentioned that none of their family members or friends asked about their reasons for leaving the church. Why is that? If someone close to me changes his life so drastically, I'd want to know why. 

I can't speak for everyone.  But those in my life who have left gave signals long before they made the final decision.  We already knew.  They only think they've kept it a secret.  But if friends and family are paying attention, they show signs of it pretty early on.

It's like being gay.  My brother finally came out of the closet when he was about 35 years old.  The thing is that we had suspicions since he was a teenager.  Then at around 25, certain things sealed the deal.  We knew.  When he came out, we all smiled and nodded.  And feigned some level of surprise.  But I kinda wondered how he thought it was a secret.

Similarly, people get something up their craw and decide they're going to leave the Church.  They start showing signs of it long before they're even aware that's the path they're headed down.  We offer help.  We hope and pray for them.  But if they're going to leave, they're going to leave.  This isn't an imprisoning cult like others would have you believe.  We believe in free agency.  We all make our choices for our own lives.  So, what do you expect us to do?

When they actually make the decision, that may still be a shock and a disappointment because we are hoping they'll turn around.  But when they finally make the decision, we already know what's happening.

Many people make the mistaken assumption that they leave because of doctrinal reasons.  They find some piece of Church history or some obscure doctrine or some such that seems "offensive" or "just plain wrong."  They make a big stink about it and claim they just couldn't justify believing that.  But the truth is that it really had nothing to do with the doctrine.  All it did was give them "justification" in their minds.  But the truth is that what was pushing them away was something else entirely.

How do I know?  I've seen it happen.  I saw people start down that road, and gradually get closer and closer to the edge.  Then they start looking at anti-Mormon stuff and point to something that they feel gives them justification.  Then they leave.

Well, I've looked at anti-Mormon stuff all my life.  It never made me want to leave.  It gave me questions, and I asked.  That was it.  Nothing more.  Every faith (and even atheism) will have things about it which don't make sense.  But you don't abandon things because of questions or doubts.  It's always something else.

When I wanted to leave the Church, it wasn't because I found some obscure doctrine that caused me to wonder.  It was because of ME.  There was something wrong with ME.  So, I wanted to leave.  But as I fixed the things wrong with ME, I found that I had no desire to leave anymore.

[JohnsonJones]

5 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:

What I found strange was when they mentioned that none of their family members or friends asked about their reasons for leaving the church. Why is that? If someone close to me changes his life so drastically, I'd want to know why. 

 

 

They might, but once they are told once they don't ask again or do not feel the need.

Other times there may have already been a heads up with the individual talking about it already in various ways, even if not directly.  They already know the reasons and maybe even discussed it and do not agree with the individuals ideas who left.  The parents of an individual tend to know more than some individuals give them credit for.

Sometimes rather than institute an argument on something they know they won't agree on, they simply try not to go into it with their kid. 

There are many various reasons why they may not wish to discuss it with family members, and far more often when they might know the reasons even if the individual who left thinks no one has ever seen these "startling" ideas they suddenly stumbled across.

The thing is, MOST of these ideas have been around for over a hundred years.  They are not new.  What IS new is that most of those who lived through these things and could say...hey...that's not what happened...are dead.  We are now in the realm of the historians and conjecture of what things were really like and how they occurred.  As these things are not new, a LOT of the members have already read and seen these items.  Many have probably actually been attacked by those who were aggressively anti-Mormon at some point of their lives (I know I have).  Just because they aren't mentioning it or going over it in detail does not mean they have not heard these ideas previously.

For some of them they may simply just not want to hear the same antagonistic arguments in their home from someone that would not listen to them anyways.  It's one thing coming from others, it's another when your own family member hates your guts.  This is also a reason that some family members may avoid the individual.  It's not shunning or hate, they just don't want to deal with someone who is antagonistic or acts antagonistic towards them.  It is easier to avoid than argue or confront in many cases.

And again, for others they may just be letting the family member go their own way without causing too much friction.

But, there ARE family members that will get into someone's face who is leaving the church as well.  I'm certain there are also stories from those who left the Church regarding an aggressive confrontation or otherwise.

There are probably as many ways that families deal with it as there are those who leave the church.  In many instances it is probably similar to how we grieve, and in grief regarding a loss at time people have many ways to deal with it.

Edited December 11, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[Jane_Doe]

8 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:

I may not respect religion but I respect my religious friends. That's why I don't shove church-jokes or criticism in their face. When a friend posts something about religion on Facebook that I find... strange (which happens a lot), I just don't comment on it. But believe me - it takes a lot of self-control to keep my mouth shut sometimes. If I read about a little kid surviving cancer because of god, I want to yell "why did he give her cancer in the first place!" and ask a hundred questions to hear why they are so convinced this was god. But then I try to remain calm and remind myself that their faith gives them so much and it's not hurting anyone, so I just ignore it. 

I'm not sure if you want this cancer half-question responded to.  If you do want it responded to, I'd be happy to do so (writing as a person who's watched little kids die and nearly died myself).  

8 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:

But sometimes I'd really like to ask questions if for example prophets say things I don't find ok. If something seems to be obviously wrong and hurtful it would be hard for me to accept that a friend of mine supports that. So of course, in that case I would ask if she actually agrees with his message and would explain why this seems wrong in my opinion. So I guess that would be anti-mormon then because I think critisizing a prophet is a big no-go.

Again, it all depends on intent.  And some people are more comfortable talking about certain subjects than others.  For example, I'm happy to talk about my own battle understanding the decision to not allow children of gay parents to be baptized until they are adults--- and yes, that was a battle for me.

8 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:

But I really enjoyed watching tons of Mormonstories. Some stories were very touching and I can't imagine how crushing it must be to feel like you've wasted so much time and energy on something that isn't what you thought it was. That's why I can understand that some Ex-LDS-members feel anger towards the church. I guess it feels like some kind of betrayal to them? I've never been very religious, so I can't really relate. 

FWIW: I've seen that same train-wreck occur when non-religious people have a deep tenet of there's challenged, and that challenged is handled by less than grace.  

[The Folk Prophet]

9 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:

If I read about a little kid surviving cancer because of god, I want to yell "why did he give her cancer in the first place!"

Wouldn't the obvious answer be to try us, build faith, etc.?

9 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:

if for example prophets say things I don't find ok.

What, in your mind, makes you the final arbiter of "ok"?

9 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:

What I found strange was when they mentioned that none of their family members or friends asked about their reasons for leaving the church.

They're lying.

[Madam_Mim]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

But the truth is that what was pushing them away was something else entirely.

How do I know?  I've seen it happen.  I saw people start down that road, and gradually get closer and closer to the edge.  Then they start looking at anti-Mormon stuff and point to something that they feel gives them justification.  Then they leave.

Well, I've looked at anti-Mormon stuff all my life.  It never made me want to leave.  It gave me questions, and I asked.  That was it.  Nothing more.  Every faith (and even atheism) will have things about it which don't make sense.  But you don't abandon things because of questions or doubts.  It's always something else.

When I wanted to leave the Church, it wasn't because I found some obscure doctrine that caused me to wonder.  It was because of ME.  There was something wrong with ME.  So, I wanted to leave.  But as I fixed the things wrong with ME, I found that I had no desire to leave anymore.

What do you think pushed them away?

Do you think there's something wrong with everyone who decides to leave the church? 

 

@JohnsonJones Thanks for your comment. Now it makes more sense to me.

 

11 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

I'm not sure if you want this cancer half-question responded to.  If you do want it responded to, I'd be happy to do so (writing as a person who's watched little kids die and nearly died myself).  

That wasn't meant to be a question to all of you, but yes, I'd like to see your view on this if you don't mind!  

 

[Jane_Doe]

2 minutes ago, Madam_Mim said:

What do you think pushed them away?

Do you think there's something wrong with everyone who decides to leave the church? 

(This question wasn't addressed to me, but I'll answer it anyways)

I think everyone who leaves the church has gone through a hard time and a deeply personal struggle.  Emotions are always involved here (emotions are always involved in every decision every person makes, religious or not).  There's the struggle to understand things.  I wouldn't phrase this as "something is wrong with that person", but rather my thoughts are "that human being is human and struggles". 

2 minutes ago, Madam_Mim said:

That wasn't meant to be a question to all of you, but yes, I'd like to see your view on this if you don't mind!  

Ok, background of where I'm coming from: when my daughter was born, she had a life-threatening defect and we were flgiht-for-life'd to the emergency children's hospital in another state, where we lived for a month.  She made it through (modern medicine is amazing), but of the course of that month I came to know many families that haven't made it through.  I've since watched my good friend loose a baby to a un-repairable birth defect.  I've since had two horrible miscarriages myself, both of which threatened my life with complications- without modern medicine I would have indeed died both times.  

I don't find God to be a micro-manager that just rains down medical tragedies on certain people to pick on them.  Rather, biology in this world is an imperfect mess, and crap sometimes happens.  It is completely soul crushing, but it happens.  And God is no more with the families that drive home with their kid than those that didn't.  God is just as much there to mourn with those that mourn- and yes, God does weep.  He weeps more than you or I ever could.  And He helps each of us stand up afterwards- which is just a much a miracle as curing cancer.  He heals the shattered soul, making it stronger than before, grows strength in dimensions the person never knew before.  And of course, He paves the way in which that child will once again be with their family.

[Madam_Mim]

35 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

What, in your mind, makes you the final arbiter of "ok"?

 

Haha I'm sorry, I guess my wording wasn't that great. I'm just trying to say that it should be acceptable to criticize prophets. The same way we would criticize a politician's speech. It shouldn't be a taboo to point out things that seem problematic and talk about them.

 

 

@Jane_Doe Thank you SO much for your comments - in general, but especially this one! I'm sorry you had to deal with that - thanks for sharing such a personal story.

You have a great way of explaining things that make it possible for me to somewhat relate and make me understand what you believe a little better.

 

[The Folk Prophet]

56 minutes ago, Madam_Mim said:

It shouldn't be a taboo to point out things that seem problematic and talk about them.

It's not.

What is problematic, I believe, is for a human/mortal/imperfect being to presume they know better than God.

The simple answer to these things is this: Is it from God?

The way to know? Ask God.

Period.