We Are Responsible For Our Own Learning

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

ernal life does not come from a book.  It comes from living according to the correct intrepretation of the word of God.  By following Christ’s example, partaking of ordinances, and enduring to the end.  

Well said. 

I took correctly understanding John 5:29 to bring together all the other passages of scripture mentioned in the first lesson of "Come Follow Me,"--which includes and adds to what you listed above. I will post an abrivated composit when I get a moment.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited January 4, 2019 by wenglund

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, wenglund said:

Great strategy!

Given that we are responsible for our own learning, it would make sense that we employ the best learning methods.

In that regard,  I am wondering how you and @The Folk Prophet, @seashmore , @SpiritDragon, @CV75,and @Traveler and others interpret the  bolded part of John 5:39 below:

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I believe Jesus was saying that doctrine (scripture) does not save anybody nor does doctrine (scripture) make anyone spiritually wiser in and of itself.  The only purpose of doctrine (scripture) is to bring us to our knees before Christ with the realization that we have sinned and fallen short.   I do not believe doctrine is useful in telling - especially the Saints of G-d's Church, that they do not know what or who they are talking about.  Maybe doctrine is useful in talking to an infidel in such a manner but not a covenant Saint of G-d.  

If doctrine does not convince me as a person to repent and come unto Christ to confess my sins and plead for forgiveness - it is not TRUE doctrine.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

4 hours ago, wenglund said:

Great strategy!

Given that we are responsible for our own learning, it would make sense that we employ the best learning methods.

In that regard,  I am wondering how you and @The Folk Prophet, @seashmore , @SpiritDragon, @CV75,and @Traveler and others interpret the  bolded part of John 5:39 below:

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

It seems that Jesus is speaking and saying that one can find the way of eternal life as taught by the word of God. But, in doing so you should come to know Jesus of which the prophets testify of within the book. Therefore, how can ye suppose to know the way of eternal life if ye know me not? 

In relation to my statement, without serving the Lord, putting what we read to work, we cannot come to know the way towards eternal life. It never fails me that when I can't find an answer that if I serve others I find it. The Jews, whom Jesus was speaking to didn't truly know the way of eternal life because whereas they could recite scripture, without doing works (serving Him in his vineyard) they didn't understand the gospel or way of eternal life at all. 

I see that in our church in some degree also. Many confess to know the way but know not because they serve not.

[SpiritDragon]

6 hours ago, wenglund said:

Great strategy!

Given that we are responsible for our own learning, it would make sense that we employ the best learning methods.

In that regard,  I am wondering how you and @The Folk Prophet, @seashmore , @SpiritDragon, @CV75,and @Traveler and others interpret the  bolded part of John 5:39 below:

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I think it is similar to the concept spoken of in 2 Timothy 3:

Quote

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I think plenty of people study the scriptures quite academically, and in so doing the scriptures take on a form of godliness that is lacking in true power. These people can continue to learn scripture in an academic way, but will never learn what they could if they would yield to the Holy Ghost and learn true doctrine. Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life, the scriptures testify of Him and are meant to help us draw near to Him. However, these same scriptures can actually act as a stumbling block when only the understanding of man is used to discern them.

[Rob Osborn]

I've noticed that true disciples understand the scriptures because they are diligent in studying them. The lazy and wicked just don't devote time to studying scriptures.

[mikbone]

The scriptures inform us that “this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3.)

If any man does not know God, and inquires what kind of a being He is—if he will search diligently his own heart—if the declaration of Jesus and the apostles be true, he will realize that he has not eternal life; for there can be eternal life on no other principle.

My first object is to find out the character of the only wise and true God, and what kind of a being He is; and if I am so fortunate as to be the man to comprehend God, and explain or convey the principles to your hearts, so that the Spirit seals them upon you, then let every man and woman henceforth sit in silence, put their hands on their mouths, and never lift their hands or voices, or say anything against the man of God or the servants of God again.

Joseph Smith Jr., General Conference April 7, 1844  - Reprinted in April 1971 Ensign

[wenglund]

7 hours ago, Traveler said:

I believe Jesus was saying that doctrine (scripture) does not save anybody nor does doctrine (scripture) make anyone spiritually wiser in and of itself. 

Even if one believes that eternal life may be found within the scriptures, the Jews at the time of Christ demonstrated that something more is need than just the words of scripture.

The first lesson of "Come Follow Me" gives some indication of what else is needed:

Mental and Spiritual Action

• Ask, seek, and knock. (Lk 11:9-13; Mt. 7:7)
• Ask in faith, nothing wavering (Jm 1:5-6)
• Ask in Christ’s name in faith (D&C 15:18)
• Diligently seek through the Spirit (1 Ne 10:17-19; 1Cor 2:9-11)
• Seek learning by study and faith. .(DC 88:118)
• Search the scriptures daily. (Acts 17:11; Jn 5:39)
• Receive the Word with readiness of mind.(Act 17:11)
• Cultivate good mental soil (parable of the Sower Mt 13:1-23)
• Delight in and ponder the scriptures (2Ne 4:15)
• Think on these things. (Philip 4:8)
• Awake and arouse your facilities, exercise a particle of faith, and desire to believe (Alma 32:27)
• Seek diligently to teach one another words of wisdom.(DC 88:118)

Physical Action

• Fast and pray (Alma 5:45-46)
• Be ye doers of the word and not hearers only (Jm 1:22; Philip 4:8)
• Do works of faith (Jm 2:17)
• Be anxiously engaged in a good cause to bring about righteousness. (D&C 58L26-28)

Both

• Come follow me (Lk 18:22
• Discipleship (i.e. he who receives the law and doeth it—D&C41:5, doeth unto the poor and needy and sick—D&C 52:40; 84:91;  lays down his life—D&C 103:28)
• Keep the commandments (Mt 19:16-22)
• Do God’s will (Jn 7L17)
• Prove all things and hold fast to that which is good (1Thes 5:21)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Traveler]

12 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I've noticed that true disciples understand the scriptures because they are diligent in studying them. The lazy and wicked just don't devote time to studying scriptures.

Are we not told in scripture that "little children" are of the Kingdom of G-d?  Little children are not diligent in studying scripture - I know this because I have raised children and served as a nursery leader.  While I was a missionary (and at other times as well) I often dealt with experts that had devoted their life (as well as their profession) to the diligent study of scripture.  I do not agree that such devotion to scripture is that single most common denominator that constitutes a "TRUE" disciple of Christ.

I am not saying that to study, fast and pray concerning scripture will not help a person to some degree - it is just that I have had some experience where diligent study of scripture has produced better Pharisees than disciples of Christ.

 

The Traveler

Edited January 5, 2019 by Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Are we not told in scripture that "little children" are of the Kingdom of G-d?  Little children are not diligent in studying scripture - I know this because I have raised children and served as a nursery leader.  While I was a missionary (and at other times as well) I often dealt with experts that had devoted their life (as well as their profession) to the diligent study of scripture.  I do not agree that such devotion to scripture is that single most common denominator that constitutes a "TRUE" disciple of Christ.

I am not saying that to study, fast and pray concerning scripture will not help a person to some degree - it is just that I have had some experience where diligent study of scripture has produced better Pharisees than disciples of Christ.

 

The Traveler

Sounds like you are just wanting to debate anything I say.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I am not saying that to study, fast and pray concerning scripture will not help a person to some degree

I'd say to a great degree. But you're right that in and of itself it is wholly, and I might point out, obviously insufficient.

There's a reason that the restoration of the church was not just about restoring scripture, but also the perhaps even more important restoration of living prophets to guide us.

However, to be fair to Rob, the righteous do devote time to studying scripture. It's kind of built into righteousness, as studying the scriptures is a commandment, and so if one does not, one is unrighteous by that standard alone. That being said, it's inflammatory to use the term "true disciple" implying that anyone who isn't a master scriptorian isn't a "true disciple". That's a typical snobby Robby p.o.v., and it's false to imply that anyone who doesn't have a master understanding isn't trying hard enough because they're wicked and lazy. It's even more inflammatory that there is an obvious, "anyone who disagrees with my views isn't a true disciple" subtext to the statement -- because we who don't see it as he does have not been diligent in studying them enough, and therefore we are clearly lazy and wicked.

[CV75]

21 hours ago, mikbone said:

This whole chapter is wonderful.   Joseph Smith’s translation of John 5:19 is one of my favorite all time scriptures.

Anyway Jesus is teaching and chastizing the Jews beacuse they claimed that salvation is in and through the scriptures.  When in reality the Jews didn’t even understand the word of God.  Because of their corrupt interpretation of the Old Trstament they couldn’t even recognize the son of God.

Eternal life does not come from a book.  It comes from living according to the correct intrepretation of the word of God.  By following Christ’s example, partaking of ordinances, and enduring to the end.  

Jesus was also cognizant of his expected crucifixation and was effectively developing an antimosity between himself and the political leadership of the Jews. 

@wenglund Yes, this is my take on it also based on something I read before. I know we take it primarily as an admonishment to search the scriptures because they testify of Christ, which they most certainly are, but Jesus was also admonishing and challenging the Jewish establishment who condemned Him and were horribly presumptuous about the meaning of the scriptures based on their literal/legalistic interpretation of the letter, and not their reception or incorporation of the true spirit, of the Law.

[Rob Osborn]

41 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

That being said, it's inflammatory to use the term "true disciple" implying that anyone who isn't a master scriptorian isn't a "true disciple". That's a typical snobby Robby p.o.v., and it's false to imply that anyone who doesn't have a master understanding isn't trying hard enough because they're wicked and lazy. It's even more inflammatory that there is an obvious, "anyone who disagrees with my views isn't a true disciple" subtext to the statement -- because we who don't see it as he does have not been diligent in studying them enough, and therefore we are clearly lazy and wicked.

I don't know where those is coming from. Why is it that people read things in to what I say? I try to contribute to the conversation and inevitably people start wanting an argument and saying stuff I never said.

I never said one had to be a master scriptorian. Neither did I say they had to agree with me. I had this verse in mind when I posted-

2 Now these sons of Mosiah were with Alma at the time the angel first appeared unto him; therefore Alma did rejoice exceedingly to see his brethren; and what added more to his joy, they were still his brethren in the Lord; yea, and they had waxed strong in the knowledge of the truth; for they were men of a sound understanding and they had searched the scriptures diligently, that they might know the word of God. (Alma 17:2)

In our day I think that expands to not only scriptures but to conference talks and other church related material. I have never met anyone who fell away from the church who were reading the Book of Mormon everyday. When I look at all the prophets, apostles, seventies, etc, one thing they all have in common is a pure love for diligent scripture study. In fact, I have never had or known a member strong in the church, male or female, that didn't love studying the scriptures.

That's all I meant by my contribution.

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I don't know where those is coming from.

Baloney. You know exactly where this is coming from.

Edited January 5, 2019 by The Folk Prophet

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Baloney. You know exactly where this is coming from.

Obviously you don't have a spirit of discernment then because what I wrote was exactly what I meant. Stop accusing me of things I never meant please.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

Obviously you don't have a spirit of discernment then because what I wrote was exactly what I meant. Stop accusing me of things I never meant please.

I believe you have spent the past year or so working hard to convince everyone that your scripture study has more value than theirs and that the prophets and apostles are wrong because their view of the scriptures do not align with yours. You have made it repeatedly clear that you consider your view superior and that the church manuals, membership, and leadership at large is in error on their interpretation of D&C 76. Then you try to express wide-eyed innocence with a big "who me" when we take your "my study is superior to yours" attitude to mean that you think your study is superior to ours.

I think my spirit of discernment is just fine.

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I believe you have spent the past year or so working hard to convince everyone that your scripture study has more value than theirs and that the prophets and apostles are wrong because their view of the scriptures do not align with yours. You have made it repeatedly clear that you consider your view superior and that the church manuals, membership, and leadership at large is in error on their interpretation of D&C 76. Then you try to express wide-eyed innocence with a big "who me" when we take your "my study is superior to yours" attitude to mean that you think your study is superior to ours.

I think my spirit of discernment is just fine.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/defamation

[Rob Osborn]

My father taught me a lot about defaming others. It seems there are those who like to defame others in these forums. 

[Guest]

On 12/30/2018 at 9:03 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

My father-in-law and I were discussing this a bit today so I thought I'd share some of the thoughts.

Being responsible for one's own learning, at first glance, as it relates to the new home centered study may seem to relate to the lessening of church time, etc. But that isn't the case, I believe. Being responsible for our own learning is irrelevant to the teacher or the setting. We were responsible for our own learning with three hours of church. We are responsible for our own learning if there were twelve hours of church. We are responsible for our own learning in a formalized classroom. We are responsible for our own learning when alone.

But that doesn't mean that we learn of ourselves. The teacher in these cases still has a great role.

The greatest teacher, of course, is the Holy Ghost. Many times the Holy Ghost teaches through other means than directly to us, and it remains our responsibility to confirm those teachings by asking God, who in turn bears witness of their truth by the power of the Holy Ghost. But these teachings we have from prophets and the scriptures still came from the Holy Ghost in the first place (unless given directly by God of the Savior -- in which cases the Holy Ghost still certainly attended as witness).

But for a great many of us "things" we learn are not the key or point here of being responsible for our own learning.* At some level many, in life, will learn more than others of facts and figures and ideas and philosophies. This is the nature of mortality. We are not equal in all things, and some are more capable of learning this way than others. Does that mean those with more mortal brain power have a greater chance at salvation? Of course not.

In the introduction to the Come Follow Me manual the first page tells us, "Conversion Is Our Goal." It states, "The aim of all gospel learning and teaching is to deepen our conversion and help us become more like Jesus Christ... ...when we study the gospel, we're not just looking for new information; we want to become a "new creature"."

Indeed, the type of learning we are responsible for is not just book learning and smarts. It is, rather, the learning that comes from the Holy Ghost that is more than just knowledge. It is the light and truth of God that enlightens our mind and removes darkness from our understanding. It is knowing God. That is the learning of which we ought to primarily speak when we consider the responsibility we have for our own learning. It is our conversion, commitment, and faith that matters.

On the first page (as far as we got in our family study today) of the Dec 31-Jan 6 (I know...a day early... Sue me!) lesson states, we might ask ourselves the same question as Jesus asked of His disciples: "What seek ye?" What is it we truly, honestly, want to learn? First and foremost, for myself, I want to know God better. Or at least, it might be more truthful to say, I want to want to know God better. Truly.

We also went through the lesson earlier this week.  The primary points I made throughout our FHE was that

• Everyone needed to take responsibility for studying the scriptures on their own (although we will still do it together as a family).
• Everyone needed to gain a testimony of their own.

I asked if the children felt they had a testimony of their own.  Most said yes.  My Ladybug asked,"What is a testimony?"  I explained.  And she said that she did have a testimony.

OK.  So far so good.  We'll see how things go from there.

The thing is that for many years now, I hadn't felt like I learned much of anything in classes at Church.  But I realized years ago that I'm not there to learn more doctrine.  I'm there to feel and recognize the Spirit so I can do so on my own in other settings.  Since then I found so few teachers who specifically do things to bring the Spirit into the class.  But I was also very grateful for those teachers who did bring the Spirit into their lessons.

I believe that we need only know the basics and fundamental principles of the gospel to inherit Celestial Glory.  Other learning may be of value.  But it doesn't really matter what hermeneutics or deeper doctrines we learn if we don't gain a testimony and strive to live the basic principles of the gospel. But if we DO gain a testimony and seek the glory of God in word and deed, our inheritance will not be less if we lack the knowledge of deeper doctrines.

I feel the Spirit when I consider my testimony and faith in Christ.  I feel the Spirit when I strive to abide by my covenants and obey the commandments.  I don't often feel the Spirit when I learn some deep doctrinal factoid.

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/defamation

Really, you're claiming that you haven't spent the past year or so working hard to convince everyone that your scripture study has more value than theirs and that the prophets and apostles are wrong because their view of the scriptures do not align with yours? You haven't made it repeatedly clear that you consider your view superior and that the church manuals, membership, and leadership at large is in error on their interpretation of D&C 76?

[Rob Osborn]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

Really, you're claiming that you haven't spent the past year or so working hard to convince everyone that your scripture study has more value than theirs and that the prophets and apostles are wrong because their view of the scriptures do not align with yours? You haven't made it repeatedly clear that you consider your view superior and that the church manuals, membership, and leadership at large is in error on their interpretation of D&C 76?

I was making a comment on those traits of disciples, that they all study the scriptures diligently and you go completely off and defame me. Look, if you want to start a topic on section 76 then I will chime in. I'm trying to contribute to the conversation. Thanks.

[Rob Osborn]

And BTW, TFP, aren't you the one who wanted to stay on topic? Just saying...

[The Folk Prophet]

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

you go completely off and defame me.

It's not defamation if it's true. You have spent the past year or so working hard to convince everyone that your scripture study has more value than theirs and that the prophets and apostles are wrong because their view of the scriptures do not align with yours.

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

And BTW, TFP, aren't you the one who wanted to stay on topic? Just saying...

Actually I abandoned the core thread. Maybe you missed it.

It was in response to this post by you:

...where you actually say we need to be open to everyone's personal revelation as if it's on par with the prophet. Despite the fact that this idea is deeply flawed in and of itself, the subtext, once again, is also quite plain from your posting history.

Regardless, whether true disciples are diligent in studying the scriptures or not is on point. Whether true disciples understand the scriptures or not is on point. Whether true disciples see the scriptures in the exact same way as other true disciples or not is on point. Whether the contributions of lay members to our understanding of scriptures has merit or not, and when and how to judge whether those things have merit or not is on point. When and why we reject lay member's views is on point.

The how of gaining truth is spot on point. The fact that I consider some of your ideas on how truth is to be gained flawed is on point.

[zil]

42 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

year or so

More like 2.3 years.

[Rob Osborn]

4 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

It's not defamation if it's true. You have spent the past year or so working hard to convince everyone that your scripture study has more value than theirs and that the prophets and apostles are wrong because their view of the scriptures do not align with yours.

Actually I abandoned the core thread. Maybe you missed it.

It was in response to this post by you:

...where you actually say we need to be open to everyone's personal revelation as if it's on par with the prophet. Despite the fact that this idea is deeply flawed in and of itself, the subtext, once again, is also quite plain from your posting history.

Regardless, whether true disciples are diligent in studying the scriptures or not is on point. Whether true disciples understand the scriptures or not is on point. Whether true disciples see the scriptures in the exact same way as other true disciples or not is on point. Whether the contributions of lay members to our understanding of scriptures has merit or not, and when and how to judge whether those things have merit or not is on point. When and why we reject lay member's views is on point.

The how of gaining truth is spot on point. The fact that I consider some of your ideas on how truth is to be gained flawed is on point.

It's defamation when it's not true and I can state factually you defamed my character. You do that a lot with me and frankly I'm kind of tired of it. It's not becoming of a disciple of Christ to constantly attack and defame others.

[estradling75]

6 hours ago, Traveler said:

Are we not told in scripture that "little children" are of the Kingdom of G-d?  Little children are not diligent in studying scripture - I know this because I have raised children and served as a nursery leader.  While I was a missionary (and at other times as well) I often dealt with experts that had devoted their life (as well as their profession) to the diligent study of scripture.  I do not agree that such devotion to scripture is that single most common denominator that constitutes a "TRUE" disciple of Christ.

I am not saying that to study, fast and pray concerning scripture will not help a person to some degree - it is just that I have had some experience where diligent study of scripture has produced better Pharisees than disciples of Christ.

 

The Traveler

When we read D&C 93:39 And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers.

If we lose Light and Truth through disobedience then would it not logically follow that we gain light and truth through obedience?  Study is on the path of obedience.   Applying what we learned through study seems to be were it really counts though.  Like a little child who does what they at told to do.