gclayjr

Can a Dictator be driven from power by sending food and medicine to starving people?

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There is a great push coming this week to send food and medicine to starving Venezuelans despite the Dictator and his army blocking food and medicine being sent to his starving people. Do you think that maybe Maduro and his brutal dictatorship could be actually overthrown by sending food and medicine to his starving citizens? 

I think this would be cool. Not only because an evil dictator would be deposed, but that it would be done by simply sending food to his people rather than by sending in an invading army.

Do you think it will work?

Do you think it would be good, if a dictator could be deposed simply  by sending humanitarian aid to his people (oh and maybe a music concert for them too), rather than attacking him militarily?

 

Regards,

George Clay

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The thought is amusing, but I wonder what comes after if Maduro goes.  Are the Venezuelans a people who now understand you can’t get something for nothing, and are ready to renounce kleptocratic socialism once and for all?  Or do they still dream of a dictatorship of the proletariat, and are just disenchanted with Maduro as an individual? 

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I doubt it would work.  History shows us that all it does is strengthen the dictator.  Why?  Because invariably the dictator's forces intercept the supplies, then hand them out themselves - as rewards for loyalty to those who say the right things - or they give it out as a PR move and claim the credit.

This type of behavior is the catalyst for the events depicted in the movie Black Hawk Down.

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Just_A_Guy

 

I would say one step at a time. I have long said that just because Maduro and Bolivarian Socialism is evil, that doesn't mean that the opposition is good, or in favor of a limited Republican form of government. Guaido is a member of the Voluntad Popular (VP) party which advertises itself as a progressive social-democratic party. I guess we will see how that plays out. When we have thrown out dictators in the past, there has often been problems related to the government we put into place, so why not let the Venezuelans choose their own?

However, I think, conceptually, being able to overthrow a dictator by simply sending in humanitarian aid instead of a military force is great.

Regards,

George Clay

 

 

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I'm not sure we're on the same page regarding the term "overthrow".  If someone is overthrown, it usually involved a violent act or threat of impending violence which results in the overthrowee dying or fleeing power.   There are more ways to get power to change hands, like elections and resignations.

The notion that if you give a country $$ will result in a boss somehow not being in power, well, it seems like there's a step missing. 

1. Send supplies.
2. Someone gets ticked off enough to grab a bunch of other guys with guns and storm the capitol building (or governor's mansion, or mayor's house, or wherever Pam works).

Just seems like there needs to be more steps in there somewhere.  I'm not seeing it.

Edited by NeuroTypical

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NeuroTypical.

I think that our news is so self absorbed and politically charged that we get little news about important events going on outside of our own borders. 

Many charitable organizations have sent millions of dollars worth of food and medicine towards Venezuela. They have been stuck in Colombia, Brasil, and Curacao, because the Dictator Maduro refuses to let humanitarian aid in for his starving citizens. Tonight there is going to be a big concert in Colombia just across the border from Venezuela sponsored by Branson, and including many famous Latin Musicians in support of Aid to Venezuela. Maduro is setting up a Concert of his own 300 yards away in Venezuela to protest the protestors. Guaido has promised to get thousands of Volunteers to grab the aid and rush against the Venezuelan military that has been positioned to block this aid from getting into the country tomorrow,  Feb 23. Most militaries, including those of dictators, are reluctant to shoot down their own citizens doing something like carrying food and medicine, especially if it is going to be photographed and sent all over the world.

This confrontation could set up the demise of his dictatorship.

Most Americans know little of this dramatic story, because all we can focus on is some actor faking an attack by Trump supporters.

 

Regards,

George Clay

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I'm still wondering what you think a "demise of dictatorship" looks like.  Do people just start ignoring him and he says "ok never mind"?  Do his generals call him a fat poo-poo head, and he slinks away?  Does an assassin's bullet take him out?  

So in scene one, you've got opposing mobs of protesters, and a military.  Scene three is a country with a deposed dictator.  Describe scene two please.

Edited by NeuroTypical

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NeuroTypical

 

A "Demise of a Dictatorship" is pretty straightforward, and has historically happened many times. He either gets on an Airplane and gets out of there, or the people size him and puts him into Jail.

 

Regards,

George Clay

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3 hours ago, gclayjr said:

A "Demise of a Dictatorship" is pretty straightforward, and has historically happened many times. He either gets on an Airplane and gets out of there, or the people size him and puts him into Jail.

You're continuing to neglect the reality that there are things that will happen in between sending aid and the dictator being removed. Things like this.

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4 hours ago, gclayjr said:

A "Demise of a Dictatorship" is pretty straightforward, and has historically happened many times. He either gets on an Airplane and gets out of there, or the people size him and puts him into Jail.

Cool.  Now I know what you mean by that, I can answer your questions.

Do I think it will work?  No.  I don't believe sending aid into an oppressed country will result in a leader leaving voluntarily or involuntarily.

Do I think it would be good, if a dictator could be deposed simply  by sending humanitarian aid to his people (oh and maybe a music concert for them too), rather than attacking him militarily?  Yes, I think it would be good.  I just don't think it ever happens.

Sort of against human nature for a dictator.  They tend to not go down without a bloody fight.  And they're never lulled into abandoning power with music.  But yeah, it would be nice if humans were different than they are, and would be susceptible to such things.

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if the food and other aid goes to the military, then yes, I think that could add impetus to events that could lead to the demise of Maduro, particularly if the military can get more through aid than they can get from Maduro, and if you target the aid towards those elements of the military who are currently receiving the least. 

Edited by askandanswer

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11 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Cool.  Now I know what you mean by that, I can answer your questions.

Do I think it will work?  No.  I don't believe sending aid into an oppressed country will result in a leader leaving voluntarily or involuntarily.



Do I think it would be good, if a dictator could be deposed simply  by sending humanitarian aid to his people (oh and maybe a music concert for them too), rather than attacking him militarily?  Yes, I think it would be good.  I just don't think it ever happens. 



Sort of against human nature for a dictator.  They tend to not go down without a bloody fight.  And they're never lulled into abandoning power with music.  But yeah, it would be nice if humans were different than they are, and would be susceptible to such things.

I agree there is not much of a history of this. I'm not sure it has ever been tried like this before.  However, I do think that it has a chance, and if it does work, it would be better than the bloodbaths that have happened historically.

And while I know a couple of indigenous Venezuelans have already been killed, I am hoping that there is still enough humanity left among their military that they will not massacre their own citizens bringing food and medicine into the country.

Is it guaranteed to work … No … Could it work ? ... I hope so.

 

Regards,

George Clay

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I'm happy to hope.  There is precedent - this is a real thing that really happened.  

Here are two other music-related ways to peace:

Tim Minchin: Peace Anthem For Palestine

Coincidance

The only problem is, Satan rules earthly geopolotics, so the first side to try something like this will probably be swiftly destroyed by the other side.  But yeah, idealism and hope has a place in my soul.

Edited by NeuroTypical

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3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

The only problem is, Satan rules earthly geopolotics, so the first side to try something like this will probably be swiftly destroyed by the other side. 

There is probably some truth in the above, but there is also a differeing view

Doctrine and Covenenants 60:4  For I, the Lord, rule in the heavens above, and among the armies of the earth...................
 

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1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

There is probably some truth in the above, but there is also a differeing view

Doctrine and Covenenants 60:4  For I, the Lord, rule in the heavens above, and among the armies of the earth...................

Armies are made up of and commanded by people with agency.

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I hate to say this, but it is not our place to kick Maduro out.  He is not in the United States of America.  Venezuela is a sovereign nation.  We need to respect that.  At the same time, we can still help the people.

 

Just think...what if other countries did not like our POTUS & how he treats Americans?  Would that make it right for them to come here and kick him out?  Venezuela's problem is complex.  It did not start with Maduro, nor will it end when he is gone.  The US is picking a fight they are sure to lose if they go in after Maduro.

 

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On 2/22/2019 at 2:37 PM, gclayjr said:

There is a great push coming this week to send food and medicine to starving Venezuelans despite the Dictator and his army blocking food and medicine being sent to his starving people. Do you think that maybe Maduro and his brutal dictatorship could be actually overthrown by sending food and medicine to his starving citizens? 

I think this would be cool. Not only because an evil dictator would be deposed, but that it would be done by simply sending food to his people rather than by sending in an invading army.

Do you think it will work?

No.  Sending humanitarian aid will keep people from dying but it won't make them stronger against a brutal regime.

 

Quote

 

Do you think it would be good, if a dictator could be deposed simply  by sending humanitarian aid to his people (oh and maybe a music concert for them too), rather than attacking him militarily?

Yes.  We did it in the Philippines.  But not through humanitarian aid (like I said, that doesn't change anything except prevent people from starving to death).  Venezuela, like the Philippines, is a predominantly Catholic country.  The reason Marcos went into exile is because he was a devout Catholic and he found himself fighting the Catholic Church in the Philippines.  Catholic nuns flocked the space between Marcos military forces and the people revolting.  They passed bread to the soldiers and to the people alike.  They knelt down in prayer with their rosaries and prayer books when the military tanks start rolling.  The military had to roll over them if they want to move forward.  Marcos, although a dictator, cannot allow the tanks to roll over nuns.  At the same time, the presence of the nuns stopped the people from throwing bottle rockets at soldiers because, as devout Catholics, they can't afford to get a nun caught in the crossfire.  So, the only option was peace.  Marcos went into exile after entrusting the government to his trusted military leadership.  The oligarchs installed their unelected President who proceeded to rape the country.  But, at least, we were able to replace the Constitution to prevent another dictator from rising.

The difference between Marcos and Maduro, though, is that... Maduro has zero respect for the Catholic Church under the leadership of the Argentinian Pope Francis.

 

1986-nuns-for-tanks.jpg

Edited by anatess2

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anastessG2,

 

I appreciate your recounting the history of the Philippines and their struggles. I have also noted that maybe today,  people put too much faith in simply protesting. I watched carefully the weekend that they were going to try and push food and medicine aid into Venezuela despite the blockade. Actually, if you watch the videos, there was very little effort to actually push aid into the country and a lot more efforts into  yelling and protesting. I guess they did actually try to get a couple of trucks through, which were successfully destroyed, but I think it would have had a better chance if they had put forth a greater effort in getting the aid in past the blockade, and less effort in simply demonstrating and getting posted on social media.

Even when the power went out, all Gaido seemed to be able to do is get people into the streets and protest. While I don't know exactly what someone could or should do about the blackout, I do think that more effort should be put into walking the talk and maybe not so much reliance and simply protesting and talking the talk.

 

Regards,

George Clay

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Guest MormonGator
On 2/22/2019 at 2:46 PM, unixknight said:

I doubt it would work. 

What causes a dictator to rise is very complex. What causes one to collapse is also very complex. I wish we could send one out of power with hearts, flowers, prayers and cuddles. But it doesn't work that way. 

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I find it annoying how so many countries begin to hate us, then when we leave, they pretty much go to hell (economically), and then they blame the US for that.  That has happened so often in so many countries, that were at one time colonies, doesn't matter if it's  South America, Central America or Africa.  Anywhere, in fact.  I think that says something that everyone should be looking at a bit closer.

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3 hours ago, pwrfrk said:

I find it annoying how so many countries begin to hate us, then when we leave, they pretty much go to hell (economically), and then they blame the US for that.  That has happened so often in so many countries, that were at one time colonies, doesn't matter if it's  South America, Central America or Africa.  Anywhere, in fact.  I think that says something that everyone should be looking at a bit closer.

That's what the monarchs used to say... very Marie Antoinette-like.  "Why do they hate us?  We give them food, water, protection, everything!  Such ingrates!"

Well... Bush and McCain are both dead now, and Clinton and the other Bushes are powerless so maybe the US can be pure good guys again.  MAGA!

Edited by anatess2

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On 2/22/2019 at 3:24 PM, gclayjr said:

A "Demise of a Dictatorship" is pretty straightforward, and has historically happened many times. He either gets on an Airplane and gets out of there, or the people size him and puts him into Jail.

But this is what it usually looks like.  CNN is streaming live updates.

https://www.cnn.com/americas/live-news/juan-guaido-venezuela-operation-freedom-live-updates/index.html

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