Requiring a COVID-19 Vaccine (shot/s)

[dprh]

3 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

5 have had the vaccine.  10 have not said what they did.  The OFFICIAL handbook of the church says:

 

38.7.13

Vaccinations

Vaccinations administered by competent medical professionals protect health and preserve life. Members of the Church are encouraged to safeguard themselves, their children, and their communities through vaccination.

Ultimately, individuals are responsible to make their own decisions about vaccination. If members have concerns, they should counsel with competent medical professionals and also seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost.

 

 Seems like an awful lot of finger wagging going on in the Church these days.

I've seen a lot of members against the vaxx quote this.  But not many who do say that they've actually consulted with a competent medical professional. 

Edit: All 8 members of the FP and the 12 got it as soon as it was available to people over 70 years old.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-leaders-covid-19-vaccine

Edited July 22, 2021 by dprh

[NeuroTypical]

13 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

99-99.5% survival rate worldwide.

Exactly!   Or, in other words:   4.1 million global deaths related to coronoavirus.  We all guess at how many in that number were actually caused by 'rona, but it's impossible to claim that 'rona isn't killing a crapton of people who would otherwise be alive.  Someone looks at that and says "4.1 million?  Holy crap, gimme the vaccine."   Someone else says "99.5% survival?  Not convincing enough for me to get jabbed."   

Here's a good question:  How many millions dead would it take, before you figure it's serious enough to get the vaccine?

And here's the same question put differently:  How low does the % survivability need to drop, before it's low enough to change your mind?

Other new news: Our global life expectancy has gone down a little because of 'rona and it's imact:

They're guessing maybe 3/4ths of that drop is due to 'rona deaths, and the rest is impacts of quarantines/shutdowns/disruption in people's lives.  

A 1 year drop or so, isn't the end of the world.  We're still living longer than we did in the '90's.  But we also haven't felt the full long-term effects of shutdown in terms of skipped cancer screenings, increased diabetes, and whatnot.  But still, it's hard to just explain away the results as "aw, that's nothing"

 

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by NeuroTypical

[NeuroTypical]

2 minutes ago, dprh said:

I've seen a lot of members against the vaxx quote this.  But not many who do say that they've actually consulted with a competent medical professional. 

lol what do you mean, watching a YouTube video doesn't qualify as counsel with competent medical professionals?  Ya crackpot.

[LDSGator]

 

13 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

 4.1 million global deaths related to coronoavirus.

Marx was correct about one thing. One death is a tragedy,  a million is a statistic. Grim? Yup, but like @dprh said our minds can’t comprehend stats like that. For perspective, Utah has about 3 million people. So, the entire state would be abolished and we’d still be short about a million deaths. 
 

Ungodly tragic. 

Edited July 22, 2021 by LDSGator

[NeuroTypical]

4 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Marx was correct about one thing. One death is a tragedy,  a million is a statistic. Grim? Yup, but like @dprh said our minds can’t comprehend stats like that. For perspective, Utah has about 3 million people. So, the entire state would be abolished and we’d still be short about a million deaths. 
Ungodly tragic. 

Well again, and in Mirk's favor, and dprh's point, one hundred fifty one thousand people die, every day on earth.  That's normal, I guess you'd have to call it "Godly tragic"?   Context is important, context is hard.  

This guy gets it:

 

[The Folk Prophet]

36 minutes ago, dprh said:

the difference if everyone were vaccinated or unvaccinated would be over 20 million deaths.

This seems like a seriously flawed conclusion when "everyone" includes my 4 year old daughter and my 1 year old son.

[dprh]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

This seems like a seriously flawed conclusion when "everyone" includes my 4 year old daughter and my 1 year old son.

How so?

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, dprh said:

How so?

Do I really need to explain the Covid death rates for 4 and 1 year olds?

[dprh]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Do I really need to explain the Covid death rates for 4 and 1 year olds?

Nope, they would be in the 99.73 and in the 99.9991% survival rates for both.

[mirkwood]

52 minutes ago, dprh said:

All 8 members of the FP and the 12 got it as soon as it was available to people over 70 years old.

 

Ok, Half that we know of and half we don't know what they did.

[mirkwood]

54 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Here's a good question:  How many millions dead would it take, before you figure it's serious enough to get the vaccine?

 

That is a good question. I don't know.  I do know that the numbers (deaths) given are not accurate.  They have fudged the numbers.  I also have never taken a flu shot.  I do not feel the need to start now either.  

[dprh]

27 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Ok, Half that we know of and half we don't know what they did.

I'm not on social media so I can't pour through their feeds to see if they posted about it.  But this Deseret article from January said that all the others were simply waiting until the tiers went down to include 60+.  I think it's safe to assume that all, or nearly all, of the 15 living apostles have received the vaccine by now.

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2021/1/19/22238767/latter-day-saint-church-leaders-vaccinated-urge-members-to-protect-selves-mormon-lds

The other seven senior church leaders are all in their 60s and will wait for the vaccine with other younger Utahns, including two 69-year-olds, Elders Neil L. Andersen and Ronald A. Rasband.

[The Folk Prophet]

59 minutes ago, dprh said:

Nope, they would be in the 99.73 and in the 99.9991% survival rates for both.

Unless I misunderstood, you said there would be 20 million less deaths if "everyone" got vaccinated. Assuming I didn't misunderstand, do you really think that math is sound? If, for example, everyone except those under the age of...say....18 (with the exception of those who had serious health issues of one sort or another) got vaccinated, that the amount of deaths would be significantly different than if "everyone" got vaccinated? The death curve by age doesn't fit that narrative. Now if you were making a herd-immunity argument then there might be some sense to it. But the straight-up statistical argument that "everyone" getting vaccinated would mean 20 million less deaths, vs age 50 and older.... I'd dare bet that if the general approach was age 50 and over AND anyone with underlying health issues that we'd see about the same resultant mortality rates.

That's not even addressing a whole bunch of other fallacies. But I'm not so interested in a huge debate on the matter, so I'll just let those be.

[dprh]

12 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Unless I misunderstood, you said there would be 20 million less deaths if "everyone" got vaccinated. Assuming I didn't misunderstand, do you really think that math is sound? If, for example, everyone except those under the age of...say....18 (with the exception of those who had serious health issues of one sort or another) got vaccinated, that the amount of deaths would be significantly different than if "everyone" got vaccinated? The death curve by age doesn't fit that narrative. Now if you were making a herd-immunity argument then there might be some sense to it. But the straight-up statistical argument that "everyone" getting vaccinated would mean 20 million less deaths, vs age 50 and older.... I'd dare bet that if the general approach was age 50 and over AND anyone with underlying health issues that we'd see about the same resultant mortality rates.

That's not even addressing a whole bunch of other fallacies. But I'm not so interested in a huge debate on the matter, so I'll just let those be.

I was simply extrapolating the data from earlier provided by the article on NJ numbers from Carb.  The death rates for vaccinated is 0.0009% and for non-vaccinated is 0.27%.  It was more an exercise in demonstrating how an seemingly insignificant change in percentages like that can have large impacts. It wasn't meant to be infallible. 

[Vort]

2 hours ago, dprh said:

Nope, they would be in the 99.73 and in the 99.9991% survival rates for both.

The point is that *everyone* doesn't have to be vaccinated to get those results. You could get basically the same result by vaccinating maybe half or less of the population, oldest first.

[The Folk Prophet]

Incidentally, the CDC, apparently predicts that fully vaccinating 1 million female 12-17-year-olds would prevent 1 death.

Edited July 22, 2021 by The Folk Prophet

[Carborendum]

5 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Holy crap, that is excellent news!   With around 60% of the state's 8.8million vaccinated, that makes the 'rona death rate of vaccinated NJians to be around 0.0009%.   Compared to NJ's unvaccinated 'rona death rate of 0.27%, what more undeniable, clear, transparently glorious and wonderful proof of the vaccine's effectiveness could there possibly be?  (I mean, the article doesn't make that clear, but people get it, right?)

Yup.

[Carborendum]

5 hours ago, LDSGator said:

I said twice that I’m honestly curious. Not asking to insult you.

I read it and accepted it.  That latest post wasn't what I was talking about.

Gator,

I love you as a brother and a child of God.  I know you tend to think things through after a lot of research. These qualities make me want to admire you.

But you have mocked, insulted and belittled without ever apologizing.  Instead, you blame me for not having a sense of humor.

You can give your blanket apology of "if I've ever... I apologize."  That's nice and all.  But it indicates that you don't even acknowledge that you actually did anything wrong even when I've pointed out the precise thing that bothered me.

And, no, I'm not playing the victim.  As I said, it's a free country.  You can say what you want.  Something you ignored.

[LDSGator]

26 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I read it and accepted it.  That latest post wasn't what I was talking about.

Gator,

I love you as a brother and a child of God.  I know you tend to think things through after a lot of research. These qualities make me want to admire you.

But you have mocked, insulted and belittled without ever apologizing.  Instead, you blame me for not having a sense of humor.

You can give your blanket apology of "if I've ever... I apologize."  That's nice and all.  But it indicates that you don't even acknowledge that you actually did anything wrong even when I've pointed out the precise thing that bothered me.

And, no, I'm not playing the victim.  As I said, it's a free country.  You can say what you want.  Something you ignored.

Check your gmail when you can. 

[dprh]

9 hours ago, Carborendum said:

https://www.nj.com/coronavirus/2021/07/49-people-who-were-fully-vaccinated-have-died-of-covid-in-nj-heres-what-we-know.html

As I was going back and saw the 49 number, I got this song stuck in my head and can't get it out now!

 

[pam]

On 5/21/2021 at 11:04 PM, Traveler said:

Perhaps I have missed something that @Just_A_Guy could better clarify.  But requiring any discloser of someone's personal health records - I believe is in violation of HIPPA laws. 

 

The Traveler

Vaccinations do not fall under HIPAA laws.  

[Vort]

57 minutes ago, pam said:

Vaccinations do not fall under HIPAA laws.  

You spelled HIPAA correctly. What's wrong with you?

[pam]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

You spelled HIPAA correctly. What's wrong with you?

I didn't want to fit in with everyone else.  

[Vort]

Just now, pam said:

I didn't want to fit in with everyone else.  

Nonconformists UNITE! Or don't. That's okay, too.

[pam]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

Nonconformists UNITE! Or don't. That's okay, too.

That's too funny.  I almost said I was a nonconformist.