Kyle Rittenhouse

[mirkwood]

1 hour ago, person0 said:

I don't think they are guilty of murder 

 

Something that people often misunderstand is the definitions of words.  In the legal world those words often have a different meaning than Webster's dictionary.  There is a reason juries are instructed not to use the dictionary.  In making a decision in court, you must use the legal definition of a word in a crime based on State Code.

[mirkwood]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

I hope both cases are warning signs for people who want to play hero/defender. It’s not worth it. 

 

If you are going to take action, you had better understand what you can and cannot do legally.

[LDSGator]

8 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

 

If you are going to take action, you had better understand what you can and cannot do legally.

Agree, and you also have to ask yourself if what you are you about to do is worth it in other aspects as well. Killing people be fun in Call of Duty but the it’s not so great in the real world. 

[Grunt]

18 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

 

If you are going to take action, you had better understand what you can and cannot do legally.

And if that action is worth the consequences to you personally, even if you are legally within your right.   

[Suzie]

Two correct outcomes in our jury system today, but since it’s a holiday this one will be largely ignored. 

@LDSGatorKyle acted in self-defense in my view and justice was served.

In the Ahmaud Arbery case, justice was served as well. It is truly sickening what they did to this guy. Kudos to the mother of the victim who fought hard!!

[LDSGator]

7 minutes ago, Suzie said:

Two correct outcomes in our jury system today, but since it’s a holiday this one will be largely ignored. 

@LDSGatorKyle acted in self-defense in my view and justice was served.

In the Ahmaud Arbery case, justice was served as well. It is truly sickening what they did to this guy. Kudos to the mother of the victim who fought hard!!

Yes, agree. Kyle acted in self defense, and the three “humans” who shot Arbery deserve life in prison. Yup. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by LDSGator

[Suzie]

@LDSGator The jury sent a strong message because I don't think the neighbor who was in the truck and filmed the incident was expecting this outcome.

[LDSGator]

13 minutes ago, Suzie said:

@LDSGator The jury sent a strong message because I don't think the neighbor who was in the truck and filmed the incident was expecting this outcome.

Once again, 100% agree. 

[JohnsonJones]

On 11/22/2021 at 11:05 AM, Traveler said:

I lived through all the eras you have spoken about.  I experienced coming home from the army on leave (we were required to wear the uniform while traveling - especially for the military discount travel rates) during the very unpopular Vietnam era.  I ended up in an altercation for no other reason than my uniform.  To this day I do not think the situation could have been avoided - I also do not like remembering it.

But recently it does seem to me there is an escalation of division going on.  The division also seems to me to be more pronounced in news coverage, political parties, attitudes at universities and braising attitudes at demonstrations.  I would agree that the basis of such things is not new but it does seem to be increasing. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe the Book of Mormon is a guide for our day.  For hundreds of years the Nephite civilization stood strong and upheld freedoms and liberties through the trials of many generations and secret combinations.  All of which I believe to be a microcosm of our day and time. And yet the Nephite civilization fell and was no more in just a trend of one generation.  I am quite sure that violence will increase as the time for the return of Christ comes near - and that there will be violence even within families - that it will not be uncommon for sons to fight against their father and brothers against brothers.  I will also add that the sisters of humanity will also be involved.  Moroni lamented how, just within his limited lifetime he saw the hearts of men turn cold and become bloodthirsty for revenge.   More and more in popular culture I see that trend to define justice as revenge - especially violent revenge.  It appears to me that trends are escalating and not becoming more calm. ......

........

I was fortunate in that I don't recall ever getting into a direct altercation for no other reason than my uniform, but it may also be that I was from a rather conservative (though, ironically, mostly democrat at the time) area of the nation.  I was unfortunate enough to be involved in a great deal of combat though, with more time in combat than many other troops.  It's not something I really talk about though, nor enjoy discussing.

That said, I completely agree with you in that it seems to me that things are escalating.  There were some rather terrible things happening in my youth and there were protests and even riots of a sort, but I do not recall them being on the scale of violence and defiance that they are today, nor that they were as regular on the occurrence as they appear to be today.

I think the morality and wickedness of the nation is increasing (and has continued to increase since the 60s when morality started to be seen more as an optional thing, something that has grown in acceptance over the decades rather than slowing down or dying out) the violent tendencies and division between us also are increasing. 

I also agree about the Book of Mormon  (and recently remarked a little on that in other locations on the forum in relation to my reading) and secret combinations.  It also appears to me that the trends are escalating and not becoming more calm.

[Traveler]

On 11/24/2021 at 2:42 PM, LDSGator said:

Yes, agree. Kyle acted in self defense, and the three “humans” who shot Arbery deserve life in prison. Yup. 

One problem, perhaps overlooked, in the Rittenhouse scenario is that if and when legal authority (police) comes on the seen it may not be obvious who is the aggressor and who is acting in self defense.   If there is an exchange of gunfire going on - toward who do the police need to react in the moment to save innocent lives?

 

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

One problem, perhaps overlooked, in the Rittenhouse scenario is that if and when legal authority (police) comes on the seen it may not be obvious who is the aggressor and who is acting in self defense.   If there is an exchange of gunfire going on - toward who do the police need to react in the moment to save innocent lives?

If there are guns involved, pretty much everyone with one gets cuffed, maybe arrested.  Control the scene, detain suspects, gather evidence.  In this case, we have the video of Rittenhouse after the 3 shootings, walking towards the cops with his rifle slung behind his back and his hands in the air.  The cops walk right past him because they're heading towards the scene and the sounds, and didn't know he was involved.   I don't know if they figured it out and got him, or if he told someone he shot people and they got him.

 

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

If there are guns involved, pretty much everyone with one gets cuffed, maybe arrested.  Control the scene, detain suspects, gather evidence.  In this case, we have the video of Rittenhouse after the 3 shootings, walking towards the cops with his rifle slung behind his back and his hands in the air.  The cops walk right past him because they're heading towards the scene and the sounds, and didn't know he was involved.   I don't know if they figured it out and got him, or if he told someone he shot people and they got him.

 

The problem is active gun fire - How can police know which is the aggressor?  Like in basketball when a ball goes out of bounds - each team acts as though they should have the ball.  If officials did not see who last touched the ball - it is a toss up.  But in a fire fight there is no guarantee anyone involved will respond to a police call for cease fire and in confusion no one can blame police for returning fire if the innocent party is the one most confused.   It is not unusual for those in a fire fight (even among trained military units) that death is often the result of friendly fire.   It is not wise, intelligent or even just to expect someone jacked up by adrenalin to react reasonably in the heat of a moment.  Science is adamite  that humans tend to respond to threats with a fight or flight response - if the individual scale tips in favor of fight - like any cornered animal - the fight instinct is likely not going to be as discriminating as it should. 

 

The Traveler

[Just_A_Guy]

I was in a state employee active-shooter-in-the-workplace training a couple years ago, and one question that came up was:  “if we use our personal firearm for self-defense, how do the police (when they get there) know we are the good guys?”.  The trainer (a sheriff’s deputy) gave a few tips, but closed by warning that “fundamentally, when you pull out a gun around cops *for any reason*, that’s just a risk you’re taking.”

[LDSGator]

4 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

fundamentally, when you pull out a gun around cops *for any reason*, that’s just a risk you’re taking.”

Correct, and you can’t blame the cops for being nervous when they see some random person-even a “good guy” brandishing an AR-15. They don’t know who the good guy is in the “fog of war.”

Yet another reason to not try and play hero. 

Edited November 27, 2021 by LDSGator

[LDSGator]

7 hours ago, Traveler said:

One problem, perhaps overlooked, in the Rittenhouse scenario is that if and when legal authority (police) comes on the seen it may not be obvious who is the aggressor and who is acting in self defense.   If there is an exchange of gunfire going on - toward who do the police need to react in the moment to save innocent lives?

 

The Traveler

Oh, 100%. A TKD instructor I had said “Sure, you might be legally defending yourself but if the cop turns the corner and sees you beating some guy, he may not know that and will act accordingly.”

[The Folk Prophet]

42 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

“if we use our personal firearm for self-defense, how do the police (when they get there) know we are the good guys?”

When the cops show up, don't start shooting at them.

[Just_A_Guy]

6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

When the cops show up, don't start shooting at them.

That’s too easy.   

[LDSGator]

Guys, we have a cop here. Maybe we should ask him what it’s like to arrive at a chaotic situation where you don’t know what happened and who the bad guys are. Granted, I don’t know the background of everyone here (nor should I), but I think he might be the expert. 

[NeuroTypical]

I've received handgun/carry training from four different organizations, in three different states, and they all tell the same story:   If you have to use your handgun defensively, prepare to have the cops show up and not know if you're the good guy or the bad guy.  Expect to be cuffed and arrested, even charged.  If the cops show up before the fight is over, you're well advised to throw down your gun and put your hands up, so the cops can take you into custody and then deal with the actual bad guy.

(By the way, if anyone is considering getting some serious defensive handgun training from a place like FrontSight, let me know.  I can get you in cheap.  I might even be able to use the excuse to go with you, if I can swing the notion past my wife.  )

Edited November 27, 2021 by NeuroTypical

[LDSGator]

25 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Expect to be cuffed and arrested, even charged

Lawyers don’t work for free, just ask @Just_A_Guy. So even if you were legally within your rights, you better hope and pray you can afford the 750,000$ in legal fees. So being charged and arrested is where the fun begins. 

You also need to ask yourself if you can afford doing twenty years in the slammer away from your wife and kids if the prosecutor gets lucky while she picks the jury. 

Edited November 27, 2021 by LDSGator

[NeuroTypical]

Yep - the best training I've received talks about your "3 problems" you face when using your handgun and someone is hurt/killed as a result:

1st problem: The immediate danger, decision to use the weapon, and the consequences like PTSD, losing your job/family/friends over it.
2nd problem:  Your immediate arrest and immediate legal situation.
3rd problem: The legal landscape which could involve criminal charges, and will almost certainly involve civil charges later.  "Ambulance chasers" are absolutely a real kind of lawyer.

I hear various estimates, but probably most often: "Expect to spend at bare minimum, tens of thousands of dollars, and lose maybe a year or three of your life fighting your legal battles.  More if someone finds you guilty of something."

Just watch Rittenhouse's story over the next year or two.  News of him being sued civilly might hit before Christmas.

[mirkwood]

53 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

(By the way, if anyone is considering getting some serious defensive handgun training from a place like FrontSight, let me know.  

Fantastic training, especially for the inexperienced.

[mirkwood]

Oh boy, the nightmare scenario.  Active shooting with multiple potential suspects.  Worse if still in progress.

 

First and foremost, I AM NOT GIVING YOU LEGAL ADVICE, if you are looking for that ask @Just_A_Guy. 

Second, there are about a million factors that could play into the scenario, so I'm going to kind of broad brush the answer.

 

If you find yourself in a position where you have used a firearm in self defense.  Please, please, please do not have it in hand when the police arrive.  The possibility of being shot is high if you do.  It is even higher if you turn towards or point it at the police.  Comply with the commands you are given, whether you like them or understand them.  The police do not have time to explain things to you when they first arrive.  You can ask for and most likely get explanations later.  Deal with it.  It will take a while, but we are pretty good at sorting things out, but initially we are going to take complete control of the scene, lock everyone and everything down.  Deal with it.  Responding to the scene of a violent crime, whether still active, or now "just a crime scene" is chaotic.  We will get it calmed down eventually, but it takes time.

Will you be charged?  Not necessarily.  I have been to self defense shootings numerous times over the years and no charges were filed.  Will you be investigated/questioned.  Well duh.  Answer honestly.  Co-operate, it makes everyone's life easier.

 

 

Yes, the initial officers that Kyle encountered sent him past them.  They were responding to an active shooter call and were moving to that location.  There were lots of people armed in that city, so seeing one more was not out of the ordinary.

 

 

[Grunt]

54 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Fantastic training, especially for the inexperienced.

It's great training, particularly for those with zero training.

The hand wringing over getting involved in a lethal force situation is mostly misplaced in my opinion.   People watch too many movies.   Most self-defense shootings are over pretty quickly, long before police arrive on the scene.   In those instances, thankfully there are people willing to step up and be heroes to protect their family, or even yours.   

Gunfights are confusing.   9 times out of 10 you're much better off not getting involved at all, in my opinion, unless it's to protect yourself or someone you know to be a victim.  It's going to cost you either financially or emotionally, at the very least. @mirkwood is absolutely correct that you want to not present as a threat at all before the professionals arrive.  Let them handle it. 

Reading some of these posts, though, makes me glad I live where I do and have neighbors I can rely on.

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Grunt

[LDSGator]

23 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Second, there are about a million factors that could play into the scenario

All true. 
 

I think what we’re talking about mostly (not always) comes from a good place. Wanting to protect your friends and neighbors is noble. You also just need to balance it out with common sense.