The Shortening before the Baking


laronius
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Matt. 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

This is not something spoken of often in the Church, at least not from what I've seen, though it may be related to the hastening of the work which is spoken of.

Does anyone have any thoughts on what this verse implies? For example: What is the threat that practically dooms the elect if allowed to persist? How are these days to be shortened? Why is this considered a departure (a shortening) from the intended course of events rather than how the Lord was going to handle it all along? What are the implications, such as: is the work done differently, will grace be granted more freely, etc? Does "shorten" refer to something other than time?

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3 hours ago, laronius said:

Matt. 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

This is not something spoken of often in the Church, at least not from what I've seen, though it may be related to the hastening of the work which is spoken of.

Does anyone have any thoughts on what this verse implies? For example: What is the threat that practically dooms the elect if allowed to persist? How are these days to be shortened? Why is this considered a departure (a shortening) from the intended course of events rather than how the Lord was going to handle it all along? What are the implications, such as: is the work done differently, will grace be granted more freely, etc? Does "shorten" refer to something other than time?

"Chapter 8: Matthew 24–25; Joseph Smith—Matthew (churchofjesuschrist.org):

"Joseph Smith—Matthew 1:22; Matthew 24:24. “If Possible, They Shall Deceive the Very Elect”

"Joseph Smith—Matthew 1:21–22 signals the transition from events associated with the destruction of Jerusalem to signs that will precede the Second Coming and the preparation the Saints must make to remain faithful during the last days. Many of the Savior’s warnings on the Mount of Olives were given to help the elect avoid being deceived during this time.

"The phrase “if possible” suggests that if the elect are going to avoid being deceived, they must keep their covenants and hearken to the word of the Lord..."

This particular verse concerns the abomination of desolation concerning the destruction of Jerusalem (See JS-Matthew 1:18). But also, the "desolation of abomination" is a more general principle in two ways: 1) the destruction of the wicked to prepare the world for the second coming (D&C 84:117) and 2) their final judgement (D&C 88:85). This can be accomplished through their voluntary repentance, or by their dispatch (D&C 43:25).

To address you specific questions:

The threat that practically dooms the elect if allowed to persist is our own human nature -- only the intervention of God can save us.

These days are to be shortened by the Lord's intervention, since even the elect cannot stop it themselves. This is His plan.

This is not a departure from the intended course of events, but an intervention against the natural course of events without the Lord. Jesus is the Elect (Isaiah 42:1; or the Chosen One) and it is for His, the elect's -- singular -- and those who are His (the elect's -- plural) sake that He intervenes. The elect is/are found on both side of the veil.

 

 

 

 

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I have a theory - pure speculation that I do not intend to be given as some kind of revelation that is inviolate.   I speculate that the sign of the coming of Christ spoken of in Matt 24 is a new star.  That when Christ was born as a child that a sun of solar mass similar to our own sun went super nova around 650 light years away.  This distance can vary depending on the solar mass of the star.  Such a star would appear as a new star that was visible during the day.  The energy from the star would be sufficient to cause the ozone of the earth to fluoresce.  This would result in a day and a night and a day of light or a night of light.  The night of light would be quite odd because the entire sky would give off light which would mean there were no shadows.

If, when Christ comes again, a similar sun went super nova around 400 light years away – distance varying depending on solar mass, the effect of the energy would be drastically different.  The earth would be stripped of its atmosphere, forests would burn and rocks would melt.  In the days of Noah, the earth was baptized with water and it is said that when Christ returns that the earth will be baptized with fire.  Such an event would destroy all life (flesh) unless there was some kind of divine revelation.

 

The Traveler

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On 1/8/2023 at 11:55 AM, laronius said:

Matt. 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

This is not something spoken of often in the Church, at least not from what I've seen, though it may be related to the hastening of the work which is spoken of.

Does anyone have any thoughts on what this verse implies? For example: What is the threat that practically dooms the elect if allowed to persist? How are these days to be shortened? Why is this considered a departure (a shortening) from the intended course of events rather than how the Lord was going to handle it all along? What are the implications, such as: is the work done differently, will grace be granted more freely, etc? Does "shorten" refer to something other than time?

These are questions I have also pondered, and these are questions I really haven't come to any solid interpretation. In my younger years, I just simply said to myself, "Well, it makes sense, life at this time with Gog and Magog isn't going to be easy. They will seek to destroy the saints of God, so yes, shorten those days!

Now, as with you, what does "shorten" actually mean, and what threat could possibly be so threatening? Yet, despite the priesthood power of the two prophets -- who are protecting the Jews -- they still manage (God suffering) to kill them. How would they have been able to kill these prophets who had been performing such miracles to protect the covenant people of the Lord?

The threat in the previous verses and verses after are as follows:
1. False prophets and false Christ will rise. They are even able to show "signs and wonders." I have been curious about these signs and wonders that even the elect could be deceived.

2. Tribulation, a great war

3. The powers of heaven shall be shaken. These are very intriguing words.

If God can protect his saints, according to their faith, then why do the days need to be shortened? Does this mean then that "faith" is dwindling quite rapidly among the earth, and only a small portion of the population have "faith"? If so, we know tyrants are raised during such times, because the natural man will take over, and when the natural man takes over we can see where that leads to. The Book of Mormon talks of a day where the people were ready and willing to kill every person that believed in the sign of Samuel of the Lamanite. Shall we also come to a time where we shall see a similar choice from non-believers (particularly atheists)? We could for sure.

From what I can find online "shorten" does highlight time. Why would an all powerful God need to "shorten" the day? For one he is God and perfectly just and true. There is no shadow of changing, so all laws -- higher laws -- are honored and obeyed otherwise he would cease to be God.

This is simply where you pray for a vision to show you how this day is and then all the puzzle pieces will come together! ;)

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There could be many different things, until it occurs we may not know for sure.  After it happens people will look back and see that it was obvious.

Things it may be...

 

1.  I am somewhat skeptical of how much man's influence is on Global Climate Change, but lets say for an instance that the influence man has on Climate Change is tremendous.  It may not be simply due to our physical pollution of the earth, but the moral pollution that we have abounding upon it today.  It is said in the scripture that the Earth is a living entity.  Our sins impact it and some scripture infer that it may groan under the weight of the sins we are committing upon it.  We are trespassing it with our own filthiness.  It could be that these are also contributing a great deal to the physical changes as the Earth reacts to the moral offenses being committed upon it.

In that light, if the temperature eventually rises greatly on an escalating measure, it could get to the point where all life would cease.  If it is in response to our sin and immorality, well...the only way to reverse that would be to get rid of that immorality.  Cutting it short before our immorality can kill us would be a way that the Lord's coming could preserve all life on the planet.

2.  Things have changed very quickly in my lifetime.  Things that we would not have been caught dead watching when I was a boy started to be something watched by many people, including many Saints in the 80s.  Today, what many Saints watch on TV, listen to on the radio, and consume in their media are what we would have considered extremely sinful when I was young.  It is possible that we are seeing the very elect being deceived into consuming media that is the very opposite of what the Lord intended for us to utilize our time doing.

3.  We see the world has already come to the point in the Western World where what used to be considered good is now considered evil, and what used to be considered evil is now considered good.  Standing for the Church principles as found in The Family: A Proclamation to the World will get you called all manner of names among today's youth.  They will consider you doing great evil and great harm.  On the other hand if you stand against it and proclaim principles diametrically opposed to it, they may call your statements and actions good.  We are indeed in a world where evil is called good and good is called evil.  It is accelerating.  Think on this, it has been less than 20 years since certain things respecting our roles as men as woman have changed in the Western world.  Furthermore, TV shows that would have been only allowed in hushed tones after dark are now broadcast at all times via streaming and sold blatantly in the stores (Series such as Game of Thrones which from what I understand is basically pornographic in what it presents).  We are living in perilous times.  I thought my family safe and that they all had strong testimonies.  Just over the past few years I have found these influences are affecting my very family members.  It seems that many families that one would think would have all stalwart children are now also having problems as those children and grandchildren get to be young adults. 

There is growing anger and resentment among the young people against churches and religion.  Some try to paint it that it has always been so.  It has not.  This growing antagonism I could see eventually leading to all out war against those who remain faithful.  In such situations among such evil it would only be a limited amount of time before the faithful were all slain.  If we remember the days before the Birth of our Lord when the faithful Nephites were going to be slain if the sign was not seen soon, or the iniquity that abounded on the American continent right before his death and resurrection, it may be that we soon may face such a crisis ourselves. 

 

So, there could be many different interpretations or ways it could come about.   I do not know, but I imagine those who live to see the Reign of our Lord on this Earth in the Flesh will be able to look back and see it plainly.

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23 hours ago, Anddenex said:

These are questions I have also pondered, and these are questions I really haven't come to any solid interpretation. In my younger years, I just simply said to myself, "Well, it makes sense, life at this time with Gog and Magog isn't going to be easy. They will seek to destroy the saints of God, so yes, shorten those days!

Now, as with you, what does "shorten" actually mean, and what threat could possibly be so threatening? Yet, despite the priesthood power of the two prophets -- who are protecting the Jews -- they still manage (God suffering) to kill them. How would they have been able to kill these prophets who had been performing such miracles to protect the covenant people of the Lord?

The threat in the previous verses and verses after are as follows:
1. False prophets and false Christ will rise. They are even able to show "signs and wonders." I have been curious about these signs and wonders that even the elect could be deceived.

2. Tribulation, a great war

3. The powers of heaven shall be shaken. These are very intriguing words.

If God can protect his saints, according to their faith, then why do the days need to be shortened? Does this mean then that "faith" is dwindling quite rapidly among the earth, and only a small portion of the population have "faith"? If so, we know tyrants are raised during such times, because the natural man will take over, and when the natural man takes over we can see where that leads to. The Book of Mormon talks of a day where the people were ready and willing to kill every person that believed in the sign of Samuel of the Lamanite. Shall we also come to a time where we shall see a similar choice from non-believers (particularly atheists)? We could for sure.

From what I can find online "shorten" does highlight time. Why would an all powerful God need to "shorten" the day? For one he is God and perfectly just and true. There is no shadow of changing, so all laws -- higher laws -- are honored and obeyed otherwise he would cease to be God.

This is simply where you pray for a vision to show you how this day is and then all the puzzle pieces will come together! ;)

“Powers of heaven shaken.”  Heaven is often synonymous with the sky and space. So, some kind of global event that knocks out satellites or perhaps space warfare?

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I appreciate everyone's thoughts. Some of the things mentioned are things I've considered and others are definitely thought provoking. I've been thinking about this in relation to "the hastening." Like @JohnsonJonesmentioned things are changing rapidly and sometimes we talk about the Savior coming when we are ready. Well it may just be that He comes when the world is ripe in iniquity and we need to make sure we are squarely on the Lord's side when that happens. So perhaps the time of preparation is getting shortened because increasing wickedness will simply demand something happen because life, as intended by the Lord, simply becomes untenable. 

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On 1/10/2023 at 2:09 AM, Traveler said:

I have a theory - pure speculation that I do not intend to be given as some kind of revelation that is inviolate.   I speculate that the sign of the coming of Christ spoken of in Matt 24 is a new star.  That when Christ was born as a child that a sun of solar mass similar to our own sun went super nova around 650 light years away.  This distance can vary depending on the solar mass of the star.  Such a star would appear as a new star that was visible during the day.  The energy from the star would be sufficient to cause the ozone of the earth to fluoresce.  This would result in a day and a night and a day of light or a night of light.  The night of light would be quite odd because the entire sky would give off light which would mean there were no shadows.

 

 

The Traveler

@Traveler I was thinking about your theory today in Sunday School as we discussed Matthew 2. Your theory would describe the Nephite experience of a day and a night without any darkness but it might not fit so well with the travelling nature of this star. In Matthew 2:2 the star was to the east of the wise men who themselves were east of where Mary and Joseph are. By verse 10 the star was over the place of Christ's birth. Super novas don't normally move around that much. 

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1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

@Traveler I was thinking about your theory today in Sunday School as we discussed Matthew 2. Your theory would describe the Nephite experience of a day and a night without any darkness but it might not fit so well with the travelling nature of this star. In Matthew 2:2 the star was to the east of the wise men who themselves were east of where Mary and Joseph are. By verse 10 the star was over the place of Christ's birth. Super novas don't normally move around that much. 

There are several elements in answering this, including the fact that the star was a sign in heaven, apparently a normal "star" that rose and set just like any other star, and that the star must have been to the west (not the east) of the wise men, who as you note were themselves in the East. (That was where they were when they saw the star—in the East.) What the part about the star going before them and standing over Jesus' house means, I have no idea.

But in any case, the most relevant part would be that this would have taken place well after Jesus' birth, probably when he was at least a year or two old. By the time the wise men met Jesus, the sign to the Nephites was long past, a fairly recent historical event rather than a current concern.

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In regards to shortening, think about the speed by which technology has helped us. Without the speed of travel, communication, technology and databases, etc... how long would it have taken to build the temples we need, spread the gospel throughout all the world, and find, complete, and maintain all the work for the dead. Technology (inspired by revelation) has surely shortened how much time we need to accomplish many tasks the Lord needs us to accomplish.

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On 1/15/2023 at 12:32 AM, askandanswer said:

@Traveler I was thinking about your theory today in Sunday School as we discussed Matthew 2. Your theory would describe the Nephite experience of a day and a night without any darkness but it might not fit so well with the travelling nature of this star. In Matthew 2:2 the star was to the east of the wise men who themselves were east of where Mary and Joseph are. By verse 10 the star was over the place of Christ's birth. Super novas don't normally move around that much. 

Because the earth rotates all stars, including super novas move.  There are lots of problem with my theory, but it is the only explanation of a night without darkness that I believe can be explained.  Some of the problem can be explained by the location of the star when it went super nova.  I speculate that it was on the far side of the sun at the moment - perhaps east of the sun when it appeared.  This would mean that the sun was affected and that it would alter the effects on earth.  This would explain why other areas did not have a night of light or report a new star.  Because the earth (looking down from the north pole) rotes counterclockwise – the star would appear to move westward in relationship to the sun.  I cannot conceive how a star would seem to point to a specific place on earth.  If the “wise” men were smart enough to figure out a new star – they would understand movements of stars better than the scripture account seams to indicate.

 

The Traveler

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On 1/15/2023 at 1:52 AM, Vort said:

There are several elements in answering this, including the fact that the star was a sign in heaven, apparently a normal "star" that rose and set just like any other star, and that the star must have been to the west (not the east) of the wise men, who as you note were themselves in the East. (That was where they were when they saw the star—in the East.) What the part about the star going before them and standing over Jesus' house means, I have no idea.

But in any case, the most relevant part would be that this would have taken place well after Jesus' birth, probably when he was at least a year or two old. By the time the wise men met Jesus, the sign to the Nephites was long past, a fairly recent historical event rather than a current concern.

Just a note about the age of Christ.  In most ancient societies (including Roman) there was not a understanding of "0" (zero).  When a child was born it was considered a single or one year old.  In addition all were considered to advance a year on the event of a new year celebration (rather than a birth day).  If Jesus was born before Passover (or the Jewish new year) he would be considered another year older.  If he was born one day before they on the new year he would be considered 2 years old.  The order to slaughter the children 2 years and younger means that in our terms it would be one year old and younger.

We run into the same problem when the scriptures say Jesus was dead for 3 days.  From Friday evening to Sunday (by our terms) is a day and a half - half the time given in scripture.  But they number theory did not allow for fractions nor a zero.  Therefore, Friday is counted as one, Saturday as two and Sunday as 3.

 

The Traveler

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It never ceases to amaze me that people take miracles to be explainable by the mundane and still call them miracles.  "Miracles are not violations of natural law, but merely obeying laws beyond our understanding." 

Yes. "BEYOND our understanding."  So, why do we try to explain them using principles WITHIN our understanding?

A miracle is specifically a miracle because it CANNOT be explained with our understanding.  I'm perfectly happy with accepting that I don't know how God did it.  But if He wants to do it, He will do it.

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4 hours ago, Traveler said:

In most ancient societies (including Roman) there was not a understanding of "0" (zero).  When a child was born it was considered a single or one year old.

I agree with the gist of your response, but I want to point out that it's not really that the child was considered a year old at birth. Rather, the counting was "one-based", as opposed to our modern "zero-based" counting. Today we use the same idea when we talk about someone being "in his twenty-first year". That means he's twenty. When you're born, that's your "first year". Your "second year" begins on your first birthday. So when I turned 60 a couple of weeks ago, I announced that I was beginning my seventh decade. Many attempted to correct me that I must mean that I was beginning my sixth decade, not realizing that I had just completed my sixth decade by turning 60.

Jesus is considered by convention to have been born in AD 1 and to have been killed in AD 34, making him 33 years old at his death. This "one-based" thinking pervades ancient cultures. Baby boys were circumcised at eight days old, meaning on the eighth day—that is, when they were exactly a week old. My third son was born at the end of December, so if we followed the practice of the ancients in the counting of our age, my son would have been considered in his "first year" for only three days of his life. At Day 4, he would have been considered "in his second year". This wording has survived into modern times in the English-speaking world, where Joseph Smith reported his great "First Vision" theophany to have occurred in his fifteenth year—that is, when he was 14.

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3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

It never ceases to amaze me that people take miracles to be explainable by the mundane and still call them miracles.  "Miracles are not violations of natural law, but merely obeying laws beyond our understanding." 

Yes. "BEYOND our understanding."  So, why do we try to explain them using principles WITHIN our understanding?

A miracle is specifically a miracle because it CANNOT be explained with our understanding.  I'm perfectly happy with accepting that I don't know how God did it.  But if He wants to do it, He will do it.

I think there can still be value in inquiry and investigation. We are more likely to learn something by investigating and inquiring than if we dont. Ask and ye shall receive......

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9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

And...?

And if you don't understand how the miracle happened, inquire and investigate, study and ponder, and then ask how it happened and you are more likely to receive an understanding than if you did not study and ponder and ask. 

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11 hours ago, Carborendum said:

It never ceases to amaze me that people take miracles to be explainable by the mundane and still call them miracles.  "Miracles are not violations of natural law, but merely obeying laws beyond our understanding." 

Yes. "BEYOND our understanding."  So, why do we try to explain them using principles WITHIN our understanding?

A miracle is specifically a miracle because it CANNOT be explained with our understanding.  I'm perfectly happy with accepting that I don't know how God did it.  But if He wants to do it, He will do it.

I so much enjoy exchanges with you.  In this matter I disagree.  I do not believe that just because someone can find some understanding of specifics of what G-d is doing makes anything G-d does less of a miracle.  I have argued this point with many of my fellow scientist concerning what I call a G-d of the gaps.  That if we can understand or ever learn (to fill in the gaps of previous understanding) to do a thing in partnership with G-d makes it any less of a miracle.  For example - just because principles of evolution can be demonstrated or proven does not mean that an intelligent G-d cannot work a miracle of evolution in creation and allow it to be eventually discovered.

 

The Traveler

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On 1/23/2023 at 9:42 AM, Traveler said:

Because the earth rotates all stars, including super novas move.  There are lots of problem with my theory, but it is the only explanation of a night without darkness that I believe can be explained.  Some of the problem can be explained by the location of the star when it went super nova.  I speculate that it was on the far side of the sun at the moment - perhaps east of the sun when it appeared.  This would mean that the sun was affected and that it would alter the effects on earth.  This would explain why other areas did not have a night of light or report a new star.  Because the earth (looking down from the north pole) rotes counterclockwise – the star would appear to move westward in relationship to the sun.  I cannot conceive how a star would seem to point to a specific place on earth.  If the “wise” men were smart enough to figure out a new star – they would understand movements of stars better than the scripture account seams to indicate.

 

The Traveler

I would be very surprised if we don't see a Supernova, or some other cosmic event, before the second coming. It could also be a tool used by the adversary. Whatever signs are coming, one will need the Holy Ghost to correctly understand them (and those who attempt to interpret them) for what they really are.

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