A Microcosm in the Church? (DezNat)

[The Folk Prophet]

I guess it shows how isolated I actually am that I haven't heard of DezNat until today.

For anyone else who's also unfamiliar...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DezNat

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/01/31/unholy-war-deznat-troops/

So....this actually relates to the thoughts I've been having regarding The Joseph Smith Foundation somewhat, in that my view of their message aside, I don't think most church adjacent organizations/foundations end up being a good idea . In short...the Church is sufficient. We don't need foundations to teach us the truth. But it's SUCH a fascinating thing to me. Because I also see the potential for good to come of such foundations. This very forum exists because of a foundation. But I also left this forum for quite some time because of articles being published that offended my sense of right and wrong. I kind of see both sides of it.

Anyhow, in the internetland...the world wide web...there is this cultural phenomenon of memes. And there are places where speech is still free (4chan, etc) where this culture developed, then spread to the wider internet. That brings with it some very good things, and some very, very bad things.

The idea behind memes are to have fun, but also express truth. They're often meant to make you laugh, but also make you think. Sometimes the thinking isn't a part of the equation. Sometimes the laughing isn't. But when a meme hits, it's great.

But as we all know...the way we think isn't consistent...and the things we find funny aren't either.

So the DezNat hashtag starts, and the idea is to promote solid faithfulness to the church, the prophet, God, and truth. But to also have fun. To play the "internet" game the "progressives" play on their own turf to an extent. (Like I said...a microcosm of broader culture, clearly.) Think about the nasty rhetoric the right sometimes engages in politically, the support of Trump, the existence of The Proud Boys, etc. But then take solidly, conservative, faithful Latter-day Saints and.... I mean you're still going to get some of the world's nastiness mixed in because people are people. But... then there's this other side to the coin. There are a lot of people who are good people, supporting what they believe to be truth and right, that are called terrible things simply for not buying into the woke ideologies. Nazi! Bigot! Racist! Just for thinking we should...control our borders or something.

Well, the phenomenon bleeds into the church culture too. On the one hand you have some actual nasty DezNat posts. But on the other you have legitimate efforts to uphold and sustain truth and right. But both are called hateful, bigoted, violent, etc. Then you put into that mix humor...and now you've got a real storm going on. Because some people cannot tell where funny crosses the line. And complicating it further, everyone interprets those things differently...and those interpretations are all, sort of, legitimate. Maybe.

I mean, a meme with President Kimball holding an automatic weapon isn't funny...right? Or is it? I dunno. I didn't laugh. But the meme with the guy in sunglasses and the caption, "Hey kid. Wanna blood atone some apostates?" had me legit belly laughing. But that's because I took it as a joke. If I believed it to be a serious call to violence (which...who knows...but I assume not), I wouldn't find it funny at all.

But some on the "progressive" side of things are seriously offended. Knowing this, shouldn't true followers of Christ do all in their power to remove offense? Or...should they? Christ was willing to offend. But we're counselled to not intentionally give offense. But that doesn't actually work in practice. Testifying of Jesus gives offense. If we know that are we to never testify of Him? Of course not. Is it only the offense through humor that should be removed? Is the message that apostacy leads to damnation and hell something that shouldn't be said...ever? Or is implying it through humor in a meme a better way? Or a worse way?

I don't know. This all confuses me. I see both sides. Standing up against the evil seems important. Doing so with humor has a way of working. And it's a natural way to involve the youth. But it also has a way of offending. And that can, in turn, breed intentionally trying to offend. Particularly in the immature.

I dunno. I'm somewhat torn.

I know I'd never use the hashtag DezNat on a post. Of that much I'm confident. That's not really my concern. (Though I could see someone, legitimately, taking just the opposite view.)

It's just all so fascinating. In person these things aren't as much of an issue. Or maybe they are. I honestly don't know. But the internet creates these phenomenon in a fascinating way. Some hashtag meant to do good...and could do good...but also does some bad...and has inclinations to do bad... Isn't that the internet? Technology? And then the twisting and lying and censoring and bias from the other side...well that makes it all impossible to judge. I'm not one to condemn immediately because some extremely woke lefty claims their life feels threatened. But.... maybe I should condemn for that reason alone? Garr. I don't know. 

Anyhow...just another fascinating thing I came across so I'm sharing for discussion.

There's more to say...but I'll save it for other posts maybe.

[NeuroTypical]

As far as I can tell, everything to do with the DezNat "movement" can be summed up in three points:

1. Probably less that a few hundred loosely affiliated individuals on the entire planet.
2. Most of 'em are mid-'20's or younger, most have never met each other (even online), half of the total are just kids trolling for a reaction, trying to scare grandma or tick off a bishop or something.
3. The whole thing is just the next installment of "obscure harmless thing gets some people worried, and then goes viral".  Like the notoriety of the tide pod challenge.  Like the fear over razor blades in the Halloween candy.
4th bonus point - Any time you hear the word "4chan", that should tell you something.  Folks who can't figure out what that is supposed to be, should consider themselves factually deficient.

[Grunt]

The problem is "DezNat" isn't a thing as much as it is an idea.   As such, anyone can claim it.   It's difficult to draw a line around what DezNat is or isn't because that line is pretty blurred.

[Guest Godless]

Deznat, in my view, is a direct by-product of the trolling/[crap]posting culture that has become prominent on social media. I lurked in their corner of Twitter for a while after they first came on my radar a few years ago. Your observation matches mine, that it's a mixed bag of well-intended gospel discourse and edgy meme fodder.

As for whether or not the latter is a useful trait, I suppose it depends on what you're objective is. If it's outreach you're trying to achieve, then memes of a gun-weilding prophet might not be the best approach. If your goal is to separate the wheat from the tares, then I suppose edgy memes is one way to accomplish that (though I'd argue that you may have missed the point of that parable).

My understanding of Deznat's origins (and I could be way off base here) is that it was a response to increased progressivism at BYU and the Church membership in general. They didn't like seeing Church members trying to shape BYU and the Church to fit modern progressive standards, so they created a counterculture to it. They drew a line in the sand and said "Follow the Church/prophet as is or get out", and I actually find myself in agreement with them on that point.

[LDSGator]

24 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

As far as I can tell, everything to do with the DezNat "movement" can be summed up in three points:

1. Probably less that a few hundred loosely affiliated individuals on the entire planet.
2. Most of 'em are mid-'20's or younger, most have never met each other (even online), half of the total are just kids trolling for a reaction, trying to scare grandma or tick off a bishop or something.
3. The whole thing is just the next installment of "obscure harmless thing gets some people worried, and then goes viral".  Like the notoriety of the tide pod challenge.  Like the fear over razor blades in the Halloween candy.
4th bonus point - Any time you hear the word "4chan", that should tell you something.  Folks who can't figure out what that is supposed to be, should consider themselves factually deficient.

From what very little I know about this group, it sounds like silly, sophomoric fun-and there’s nothing wrong with that at all. In fact, I think it’s great that someone in the church can fire back at anti’s and trolls. 

[LDSGator]

5 minutes ago, Godless said:

your goal is to separate the wheat from the tares, then I suppose edgy memes is one way to accomplish that (though I'd argue that you may have missed the point of that parable).

 

Is it really that serious though? Am I missing something? I thought these guys essentially made funny memes and fired back to critics online in funny ways. 
 

The LDS faith could a court jester. Are these guys it?

[The Folk Prophet]

13 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Is it really that serious though? Am I missing something? I thought these guys essentially made funny memes and fired back to critics online in funny ways. 

As pointed out, it's just a hashtag. So it's very hard to say what any given individual feels or things who uses that hashtag. Some may be just having fun. Some may be deadly serious.

[LDSGator]

5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

As pointed out, it's just a hashtag. So it's very hard to say what any given individual feels or things who uses that hashtag. Some may be just having fun. Some may be deadly serious.

Understand. I think the overwhelming majority of people who use that hashtag are doing it in attempt to use humor and have some harmless fun. 

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, LDSGator said:

Understand. I think the overwhelming majority of people who use that hashtag are doing it in attempt to use humor and have some harmless fun. 

Maybe. I don't though. I think the intent is to have fun while engaging in something that they take deadly serious. Sustaining the gospel. I don't think fun is the point. It think it's a method.

[LDSGator]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

Maybe. I don't though. I think the intent is to have fun while engaging in something that they take deadly serious. Sustaining the gospel. I don't think fun is the point. It think it's a method

Totally legit analysis. I can’t read minds so I’m not claiming to know their intentions. I also think you know more about them than I do. 

[Vort]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I guess it shows how isolated I actually am that I haven't heard of DezNat until today.

For anyone else who's also unfamiliar...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DezNat

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/01/31/unholy-war-deznat-troops/

So....this actually relates to the thoughts I've been having regarding The Joseph Smith Foundation somewhat, in that my view of their message aside, I don't think most church adjacent organizations/foundations end up being a good idea . In short...the Church is sufficient. We don't need foundations to teach us the truth. But it's SUCH a fascinating thing to me. Because I also see the potential for good to come of such foundations. This very forum exists because of a foundation. But I also left this forum for quite some time because of articles being published that offended my sense of right and wrong. I kind of see both sides of it.

As far as DesNat goes, I know nothing of it except for what I read others say. But reading between the lines from articles such as the SLTrib filth you link, DesNat sounds pretty reasonable to me, at least in principle. Maybe it's true that some who identify with the movement have taken the idea too far—but what movement of any real significance can proclaim the opposite? And maybe DesNat DezNat really is just a white supremacist group in disguise. But I doubt it. That "white supremacist hate group" stuff is the kind of nonsense the political Left likes to pin on anyone and anything that goes against its agenda.

The name "Deseret Nation" is inspirational to believing Latter-day Saints. It represents the best we can think of, Zion, and offers echoes of the very best that many of us used to think the United States of America stood for. Sort of an LDS "Make America Great Again". I know nothing of the movement, but I would love to see the actual ideal of a Deseret Nation implemented in real life.

[The Folk Prophet]

9 minutes ago, Vort said:

As far as DesNat goes, I know nothing of it except for what I read others say. But reading between the lines from articles such as the SLTrib filth you link, DesNat sounds pretty reasonable to me, at least in principle. Maybe it's true that some who identify with the movement have taken the idea too far—but what movement of any real significance can proclaim the opposite? And maybe DesNat DezNat really is just a white supremacist group in disguise. But I doubt it. That "white supremacist hate group" stuff is the kind of nonsense the political Left likes to pin on anyone and anything that goes against its agenda.

The name "Deseret Nation" is inspirational to believing Latter-day Saints. It represents the best we can think of, Zion, and offers echoes of the very best that many of us used to think the United States of America stood for. Sort of an LDS "Make America Great Again". I know nothing of the movement, but I would love to see the actual ideal of a Deseret Nation implemented in real life.

That's a great analogy.

Still...something feels a bit off about coining a phrase or naming an organization that is outside of the church even if it's pro church. I can't quite place my finger on what feels off about it. It just feels off.

If the church had an official movement called Deseret Nation and it was focused on bringing about Zion I'd be on board.

Also...something about the usage of the word "Nation" feels...inflammatory.

And if it's really about Zion, then why not use Zion. #zion. I could get behind that.

But really, why isn't the church sufficient. Why not #churchOfJesusChristofLatterDaySaints or #churchOfJesusChrist or something if it's really just about supporting the gospel.

I feel like there are a hundred hashtags that could do the job without A) being cryptic (I had to look up what DezNat meant after seeing it referred to somewhere) B) being weird (as you pointed out...why the z instead of the s? And why the abbreviation? Why not #DeseretNation?) and C) being inclined to be viewed as a dog whistle because of the usage of the word "nation" (naturally associated with nationalism -- which, fair or not, is associated with white supremacy, racism, etc).

So, yeah. I get your point. And I agree...but there's still something wrong here to my sensibilities.

Edited February 21, 2023 by The Folk Prophet

[estradling75]

We are suppose to be "Doing many things of our own free will" and "Bring to pass much righteousness."  So I can see a scriptural foundation for going out and doing good.

The downside is that we still need to be spiritually lead, but as such groups grow (assuming a certain about of popularity) it is harder and harder to make sure everyone is following the spirit's direction... it is so easy to follow other influences instead.  And the leader(s) also have to contend with the issues described in D&C 121 as they get more influence.

So we should not be surprised that many such things end up corrupted from their idealistic starting points.

If we want to join such a group we should not be willing to turn a blind eye to what they do, just because we like what they say.  This should hold for all kinds of groups we might be members of... not just religious ones   

[NeuroTypical]

Everything sounds nice on paper until you decide to cosplay as Captain Moroni at the Jan 6th event.  Dude got 45 days in jail - pleaded down to misdemeanor "parading, demonstrating, or picketing in a Capitol building".

Edited February 21, 2023 by NeuroTypical

[Vort]

59 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Everything sounds nice on paper until you decide to cosplay as Captain Moroni at the Jan 6th event.  Dude got 45 days in jail - pleaded down to misdemeanor "parading, demonstrating, or picketing in a Capitol building".

Probably a good guy with honorable intentions. I'm embarrassed for him.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

We are suppose to be "Doing many things of our own free will" and "Bring to pass much righteousness."  So I can see a scriptural foundation for going out and doing good.

The downside is that we still need to be spiritually lead, but as such groups grow (assuming a certain about of popularity) it is harder and harder to make sure everyone is following the spirit's direction... it is so easy to follow other influences instead.  And the leader(s) also have to contend with the issues described in D&C 121 as they get more influence.

So we should not be surprised that many such things end up corrupted from their idealistic starting points.

If we want to join such a group we should not be willing to turn a blind eye to what they do, just because we like what they say.  This should hold for all kinds of groups we might be members of... not just religious ones   

So the advice to "follow the Spirit" is such an interesting one for me as I age. I cannot say how often I've been involved in something where I've been trying to bring to pass much righteous of my own free will only to feel like I made a mess of it, and even felt reprimanded in General Conference for my actions. (Many of those efforts people will be familiar with, as I was engaged in them in this forum...aggressively "defending" the gospel per my best understanding.)

Maybe I'm overly sensitive to things. Maybe it's my just insecurities. I've fashioned myself a Captain Moroni, boldly defending the gospel to turn back the gates of hell... (though not enough to cosplay as that... but cosplay's for 10-year-olds. Grow up people!) ...but then as soon as I hear an apostle say we need to be less offensive I crawl back in my hole and cower a bit before slowly creeping back out with intent to do better.

What's my point? Well...I have no idea how to follow the Spirit sometimes. I always try to. But I get on the wrong end of things. A lot. Because I have a big mouth and I'm excitable and.......call it overly zealous...or even manic...if you willl...in my enthusiasm at times. I'm simply not Captain Moroni.

Or...am I? 

Haha...no. I'm definitely not. For sure. But what I mean is...I put Captain Moroni on a pedestal. But he was human. The fact that if all men were like him the gates of hell would have been shut doesn't mean he never made a bad choice. I mean he ripped Pahoran a new one entirely unfairly. And he didn't exactly back off when he found out he was wrong. He didn't say, "Oh...I'm so sorry man. I messed up big time in saying such terrible things and threatening you." But we don't have the full record. Maybe he did in private.

But I've offended so many so often. It cannot help to start feeling like I'm doing it wrong. So if I was doing it wrong...but doing my best to follow the Spirit... was I? Can't God do His work through the foolishness of men? Even fools such as me?

That being said... I've recently gained some insight on "following the Spirit" from Elder Bednar, and that's what I really wanted to share here:

I've never had the moments of confirmation where my imperfect actions clearly led to a positive result...but I have to trust in the concept. I'll continue to be a fool. I know that. I'll try. I'll keep trying. I'll keep trying to try trying. But I'm going to be a fool because..... I am one. So I have to trust God can do good through me despite that reality -- even if I don't see it.

I'm smarter now...but boy howdy when I was in my 20s I would have probably jumped all over the DezNat thing. Now I look at it as immaturity and unnecessary foolishness. But that's just an age thing. I'd like to give the other fools out there the benefit of the doubt as much as possible. So, as I've stated, I see both sides in a way.

It's both heroic and stupid. Like the idiot Captain Moroni cosplayer. What a noble moron.

[Guest Godless]

3 hours ago, LDSGator said:

Is it really that serious though? Am I missing something? I thought these guys essentially made funny memes and fired back to critics online in funny ways. 
 

The LDS faith could a court jester. Are these guys it?

There's memes, and then there's 💩posting. I think it's the attitude behind the memes that makes them off-putting. A lot of their content has a conspicuous holier-than-thou tone to it that I'd argue doesn't paint the Church in a very positive light. 

[LDSGator]

4 minutes ago, Godless said:

There's memes, and then there's 💩posting. I think it's the attitude behind the memes that makes them off-putting. A lot of their content has a conspicuous holier-than-thou tone to it that I'd argue doesn't paint the Church in a very positive light. 

Absolutely legit point. 

[The Folk Prophet]

17 minutes ago, Godless said:

There's memes, and then there's 💩posting. I think it's the attitude behind the memes that makes them off-putting. A lot of their content has a conspicuous holier-than-thou tone to it that I'd argue doesn't paint the Church in a very positive light. 

So I don't necessarily disagree with you on this point per se. But just as a counter thought exercise...

Sometimes some of this stuff is hilarious. And it honestly feels like wokesters just have no sense of humor about anything. And that's on them.

I mean I've watched the South Park episode on Joseph Smith. And although in principle it's offensive...I have to admit it's funny. I don't support making fun of something others find sacred... but I don't exclaim my life feels threatened and demand censorship.

No one posting a photoshopped picture of president Kimball with a machine gun is being serious. I don't expect everyone to join in the laughing. But the pearl-clutching, "my life is threatened", kind of response is just as much a tactic as is the poop-posting. It's also just as holier-than-thou. So if the response is to cave because offense is being caused...isn't that letting the ideological enemy manipulate the narrative in an unfair way?

As I said...I actually think I agree with you...I think. But it's not so black and white really.

[Guest Godless]

9 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

So I don't necessarily disagree with you on this point per se. But just as a counter thought exercise...

Sometimes some of this stuff is hilarious. And it honestly feels like wokesters just have no sense of humor about anything. And that's on them.

I mean I've watched the South Park episode on Joseph Smith. And although in principle it's offensive...I have to admit it's funny. I don't support making fun of something others find sacred... but I don't exclaim my life feels threatened and demand censorship.

No one posting a photoshopped picture of president Kimball with a machine gun is being serious. I don't expect everyone to join in the laughing. But the pearl-clutching, "my life is threatened", kind of response is just as much a tactic as is the poop-posting. It's also just as holier-than-thou. So if the response is to cave because offense is being caused...isn't that letting the ideological enemy manipulate the narrative in an unfair way?

As I said...I actually think I agree with you...I think. But it's not so black and white really.

I think we're on the same page. I can't honestly say that I've ever seen anything posted under the Deznat tag that I genuinely find offensive or harmful. I think turning Church leaders into right wing memes is problematic to the cause of outreach and fellowship, but that obviously doesn't bother me personally.

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, Godless said:

I think turning Church leaders into right wing memes is problematic to the cause of outreach and fellowship,

But it's not. It's only problematic to the cause of outreach and fellowship for a certain type of individual (progressives). To another type of individual...who are, frankly, significantly more likely to respond positively to outreach and fellowship, it's potentially quite useful.

[scottyg]

I'm another that never heard of it until today.

[Just_A_Guy]

Well over a decade ago, we had a forum member posting under the name “nation of Deseret” or some such thing, and trying to push it as an idea/culture/shadow government (and was hawking merch with a poached logo, IIRC).  I’ve always wondered if that guy had anything to do with the hashtag “movement”.

[LDSGator]

7 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

IIRC).  I’ve always wondered if that guy had anything to do with the hashtag “movement”.

None of us here are that influential. 

[Carborendum]

18 hours ago, Godless said:

A lot of their content has a conspicuous holier-than-thou tone to it.

Oh, my.  How rare in this day and age.  

Edited February 22, 2023 by Carborendum