Educate About Abuse and Patterns of Abuse

[Vort]

18 hours ago, schematic_dreamer said:

I was hoping to have an interesting and challenging discussion about abuse and abuse education in the church. 

I did not mean to make this about gender. 

My points were:

-The church doesn’t teach or train enough about the patterns of abuse, and A LOT of harm is caused by that.

So the first point you were trying to make was a criticism of the kingdom of God. This is how you want to engage us in mutually profitable conversation.

The Restored Church of Christ causes no harm. None. If the Church's leaders don't say "be nice to people and don't abuse them" as often as you think appropriate, that does not make them guilty of causing "A LOT of harm", or even a little bit of harm. I would say it's the abusers who cause the harm, not the kingdom of God. So I think you are wrong. I also think you're picking a fight, the bait to which I'm struggling mightily not to rise to.

18 hours ago, schematic_dreamer said:

-Abusers tend to be charismatic and abuse out of a belief of entitlement and control.

I suspect this is untrue. I suspect most abusers are non-charismatic. Most abusers of my acquaintance have not been pleasant people. A few have put on a façade, but it was seen through pretty easily after knowing the person for a short amount of time.

18 hours ago, schematic_dreamer said:

-The abuser is more likely to be the one who has their stuff together and to be a ‘handshaker’ that shows up to activities.

More likely than what? Than to be the one who sits alone or who speaks unkindly to others? Again, I disbelieve you.

I suppose your moral is that we shouldn't be a 'handshaker' or show up to activities, since that would mark us as abusers. Poor bishops.

18 hours ago, schematic_dreamer said:

-The abused is more likely to look like they are falling apart.

This I can believe. It's rather heartbreaking. On the other hand, many people who look like they're falling apart really are falling apart, and not because some external party is abusing them. They are falling apart because they do not manage their life choices well.

18 hours ago, schematic_dreamer said:

-Abusers are making choices based on beliefs.  They don’t typically have a disorder.

How could you possibly know this? Are you truly an authority on what the average abuser is like personally?

18 hours ago, schematic_dreamer said:

-Physical and sexual abuse are only the visible parts of an iceberg.

A reasonable assumption, since anything we see is only the visible, observable part of a much more comprehensive reality that external actors do not perceive.

18 hours ago, schematic_dreamer said:

I did not mean to come across as a man-hater, or like I think all men, or even a large portion of men are abusers.  I believe strongly that gender differences are eternal and happiness comes from embracing the best in our natures.

I am sincerely happy to hear this. Do you understand which parts of what you wrote in your original post led others to perceive your attitude toward men as negative?

18 hours ago, schematic_dreamer said:

I was trying to sincerely share my own experiences and what I have learned so far and what I would like to see change.

I am not qualified to speak for anyone but myself, but I strongly suspect that everyone on this list who reads your OP sympathizes with you for the history of abuse you appear to have suffered. As for what you would like to see change, please keep in mind that this is a discussion group, not a therapy group. We discuss things. We analyze the discussion points of others based on the merits of those points. I believe we try to be friendly and kind, but we are not (I am not) above sarcasm when appropriate. So when you come to an LDS-oriented discussion list and lead out by criticizing the actions and attempts of the kingdom of God to serve you and the rest of us, you should be something less than surprised when many don't really respond well to your post.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Vort

[mirkwood]

15 hours ago, schematic_dreamer said:

I was hoping to have an interesting and challenging discussion about abuse and abuse education in the church. 

 

 

As @Vort said, it seemed more like you wanted a fight.  

 

 

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-The church doesn’t teach or train enough about the patterns of abuse, and A LOT of harm is caused by that.

 

See Vort's response above.

 

 

I am going to do some strikethroughs on what you posted to more accurately reflect what I have experienced during my 26 years of investigations.  I have been on THOUSANDS of domestic violence calls.

 

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-Abusers tend to be charismatic and abuse out of a belief of entitlement and control.

 

This is a factor.  Frequently it is about control.  It is also about alcohol and drug addiction, anger management, impulse control, stress, being generally disagreeable as a person, some are even just plain evil.  There are numerous reasons and combinations.  Very few are charismatic.

 

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The abuser is more likely to be the one who has their stuff together and to be a ‘handshaker’ that shows up to activities.

 

Nope.  All kinds of abusers out there.

 

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-The abused is more likely to look like they are falling apart.

 

Most victims are pretty good at hiding it during social situations.  Most people don't know what to look for and will most likely not see the clues.

 

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-Abusers are making choices based on beliefs.  They don’t typically have a disorder.

That can be true, in addition to the factors I listed above.  I struck through the disorder part because we can debate back and forth ad nauseam about what disorder in the context of domestic violence entails.

 

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-Physical and sexual abuse are only the visible parts of an iceberg.

Sexual abuse is not generally visible.  Physical abuse can be visible, but many abusers also know this and strike body parts that are covered by clothing.  If you meant that there are other underlying issues besides those, ok, I would agree.

 

 

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I did not mean to come across as a man-hater, or like I think all men, or even a large portion of men are abusers.  I believe strongly that gender differences are eternal and happiness comes from embracing the best in our natures.

I'll take you at your word on this.  

 

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I was trying to sincerely share my own experiences and what I have learned so far and what I would like to see change.

Ok, but I question what your actual motives were based on things said above.

 

I hope you will find the help you need to overcome what appears to be YEARS of abuse at the hands of the person who is supposed to be your closest and best friend.  If you stay with your husband, I hope he finds the help he needs to overcome YEARS of abusive behaviors.

Edited May 12, 2023 by mirkwood

[LDSGator]

17 hours ago, schematic_dreamer said:

I was hoping to have an interesting and challenging discussion about abuse and abuse education in the church. 

I did not mean to make this about gender. 

 

My points were:

 

-The church doesn’t teach or train enough about the patterns of abuse, and A LOT of harm is caused by that.

-Abusers tend to be charismatic and abuse out of a belief of entitlement and control.

-The abuser is more likely to be the one who has their stuff together and to be a ‘handshaker’ that shows up to activities.

-The abused is more likely to look like they are falling apart.

-Abusers are making choices based on beliefs.  They don’t typically have a disorder.

-Physical and sexual abuse are only the visible parts of an iceberg.

 

I did not mean to come across as a man-hater, or like I think all men, or even a large portion of men are abusers.  I believe strongly that gender differences are eternal and happiness comes from embracing the best in our natures.  I was trying to sincerely share my own experiences and what I have learned so far and what I would like to see change.

My apologies if I misread. Wishing you the best. 

[Carborendum]

9 hours ago, Vort said:

I suspect this is untrue. I suspect most abusers are non-charismatic. Most abusers of my acquaintance have not been pleasant people. A few have put on a façade, but it was seen through pretty easily after knowing the person for a short amount of time.

...

How could you possibly know this? Are you truly an authority on what the average abuser is like personally?

There is an overlap that needs to be observed here.  The things SD is describing seem to be the traits of sociopaths.  Not all abusers are sociopaths.  But all sociopaths are abusers (be it whatever mode they lean towards).

While we can justly state that some of these traits lean toward a sociopathic condition, we need to remember that conditions such as psychopaths, sociopaths, narcissists, borderline personality disorder all fall along a spectrum.  And it is difficult for professionals to really tell where someone lies on that spectrum.  No hope of us lay people being able to judge that.

I've known specific individuals who were raised a certain way that wasn't all that good.  But if you got to know them, they only did bad things because that's how they were brought up.  Once they were actually educated on right and wrong, they genuinely felt remorse over what they had done.  Some of them were raised that way so strongly that they never accepted the correction, and continued in that behavior.  And, yes, some people just want to see the world burn.

Narcissists, tend more towards emotional abuse than physical.  But that is a very gray area.  While we can have some very regal sounding definitions of what crosses the line, in practical application we find that they are still vague terms.  When does it become abuse?

With physical, we used to have a very clear definition: Bones, bruises, & blood.  Nowadays, spankings are considered abuse.  In some jurisdictions, it is criminalized.  And now we have a bystander restraining an assailant being tried for a crime because he was defending the victim.

When we can't even define physical abuse anymore, do we really have a chance of legally defining what emotional abuse is?

We have in many circles what is defined as "toxic".  And there are many examples that I'd agree with.  But when those same definitions are "applied" to circumstances where I'd absolutely disagree, it is hard to accept even those definitions.

Finally, the bottom line is to ask the question about the Church.  If "The Church" isn't doing enough, what would be the steps required to fulfil certain objections levied at the Church.

And interesting parallel is this:  When atheists deride things that God does or allows, I have to ask "What would you do instead?" And they have very quick quips about their idea. And I realize that they are things that God "cannot do."  Suggestions include various ideas that essentially mean: Become a Tyrant.  But they just don't realize that is what it means.

[Carborendum]

18 hours ago, schematic_dreamer said:

I did not mean to come across as a man-hater, or like I think all men, or even a large portion of men are abusers.  I believe strongly that gender differences are eternal and happiness comes from embracing the best in our natures. 

Thank you for clarifying.  We're happy to have you here.

18 hours ago, schematic_dreamer said:

I was trying to sincerely share my own experiences and what I have learned so far and what I would like to see change.

So, what, specifically, would you like to see change?  And how would you go about it given the framework of the Church?

[NeuroTypical]

20 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

But all sociopaths are abusers (be it whatever mode they lean towards).

Pretty sure this is not true.  Plenty of diagnosed sociopaths are out there just living their lives, having a decent understanding of good and evil and choosing good.  You can find examples of these folks in happy marriages, raising happy kids.

(Overall good post @Carborendum, just wanted to address this one comment.)

[Carborendum]

23 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

 Plenty of diagnosed sociopaths are out there just living their lives, having a decent understanding of good and evil and choosing good. 

Tell me more.

[mirkwood]

55 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

legally defining what emotional abuse is?

Making this one a criminal act, would be a nightmare for enforcement and abuse.  It is not illegal to be verbally/emotionally abusive.  While both are detestable, making it criminal would be a massive mistake.

[mikbone]

47 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Pretty sure this is not true.  Plenty of diagnosed sociopaths are out there just living their lives, having a decent understanding of good and evil and choosing good.  You can find examples of these folks in happy marriages, raising happy kids.

Yup, highly recommended reading.  Insightful, entertaining, and you just might see a few of your own quirks are similar to the author’s findings.

Interesting, they are more common then you might think.

Oddly, some of them turn out to be successful surgeons / scientists…

[Ironhold]

20 hours ago, schematic_dreamer said:

I was hoping to have an interesting and challenging discussion about abuse and abuse education in the church. 

 

Each person here has their own story to tell, and their own basket of life experiences. 

For example, I myself have, for all intents and purposes, been trained in psychological warfare. I'm talking the "how to melt brains for fun and profit" kind of psych warfare, where you get inside someone's head, figure out what makes them tick, and use it against them until they either do what you want them to do while still thinking it's their own idea or shatter as human beings. 

There are things I am going to burn for, and I have accepted that fact. 

I also briefly studied criminal justice, including looking at several infamous killers. 

Throw in my 7+ years of Spanish, and in an alternate reality I could be out running with the spooky boys right now. 

I don't live in a world of warm fluffy ideals. 

I live in a world where people will *literally* grind your face into the pavement just for giggles. 

I look at how systems are vulnerable, what can make those systems finally break, how those systems can be fixed once broken, and how they can be shielded to prevent them from breaking again. A big part of what I do now as a newspaper writer is warn the public about these things, including how folks like me know how to game them. 

[LDSGator]

7 hours ago, Ironhold said:

There are things I am going to burn for, and I have accepted that fact. 

Dude, relax. God can forgive murderers.