LGBT and The Matrix

[Carborendum]

Sec State Blinken just sent out a tweet condemning "dangerous conversion therapy."

After reading a lot of comments/responses to his post, I recognized one thing that most people are ignoring about the underlying ideology and how that squares with LDS doctrine about our eternal nature.

One post in particular

Quote

So a therapy that just used words = bad.

Hormones, surgery, and chemical castration "to align with this made up thing called gender identity" = good.

This actually speaks to the spiritual.  But, oh no, it is definitely not a religion.  That's for darn sure. 

What they are saying is what the Matrix has tried to say for a while now.  I didn't see the latest incarnation film personally.  I just didn't get wow'd by the trailer.  But the Wachowskis who wrote/created/directed the films have commented on the many fans who have changed the narrative to be a trans story.  i.e. the "real body" could be different than what the computers put us in.  The Wachowskis (being trans themselves) have accepted this as a preferred reading of the storyline/universe of the Matrix.

While I can argue with this from a technical/story-telling perspective, I'm bringing this up for a different reason.  The online argument is that (for lack of any better term that really means anything) gender identity is a spiritual thing.  So, if one were religious, it would mean that God put us in the wrong body.  Or at the very least, the narrative would say that gender identity theory implies that the spirit's sexuality is malleable -- much more so than the body.

We've all read quite a bit about what is right and correct about the trans religion.  But there really is no defense in traditional Christianity.  God created male and female.  That's all.  Sectarians say:

• We didn't exist before this earth.
• Our eternal natures have nothing to do with sex.  It is a mortal fallen principle which will be done away with in eternity.
• Bodies are also the result of a fallen condition.  In heaven we have no bodies.

If these three statements are true, then there really is no eternal argument that can be made that we should consider transgenderism a sin.  Sex/gender don't mean anything.

Only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that 

Quote

Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

Notice the terms "Gender" & Identity" way back in 1995.  While "Gender Identity" was coined way back in 1964, did the general public ever use it?  I never heard it until around Obama's second term.  And the meaning has certainly taken a new meaning since then.

As an "essential characteristic" that is from all eternity to all eternity, it is something that we cannot simply change at will without dire consequences.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Carborendum

[Guest Godless]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

While I can argue with this from a technical/story-telling perspective, I'm bringing this up for a different reason.  The online argument is that (for lack of any better term that really means anything) gender identity is a spiritual thing.  So, if one were religious, it would mean that God put us in the wrong body.  Or at the very least, the narrative would say that gender identity theory implies that the spirit's sexuality is malleable -- much more so than the body.

This is an interesting thought experiment. We see examples all the time of people being born into imperfect bodies, and modern technology has come a long way in giving us the ability to correct physical imperfections. Gender dysphoria is a condition under which a person feels very strongly that their biological gender is wrong. The mind (you can replace "mind" with "spirit") believes with every fiber of its being that it's in the wrong body. What is the medical justification for refusing to fix that?

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

We've all read quite a bit about what is right and correct about the trans religion.  But there really is no defense in traditional Christianity.  God created male and female.  That's all.  Sectarians say:

• We didn't exist before this earth.
• Our eternal natures have nothing to do with sex.  It is a mortal fallen principle which will be done away with in eternity.
• Bodies are also the result of a fallen condition.  In heaven we have no bodies.

If these two statements are true, then there really is no eternal argument that can be made that we should consider transgenderism a sin.  Sex/gender don't mean anything.

Only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that 

Notice the terms "Gender" & Identity" way back in 1995.  While "Gender Identity" was coined way back in 1964, did the general public ever use it?  I never heard it until around Obama's second term.  And the meaning has certainly taken a new meaning since then.

As an "essential characteristic" that is from all eternity to all eternity, it is something that we cannot simply change at will without dire consequences.

It's a rare condition, but true biological hermaphrodites exist. If a sexual anomaly (for our species) like that can exist in nature, is it that much of a leap to think that people can be born mentally/spiritually incompatible with their biological sex?

[NeuroTypical]

18 minutes ago, Godless said:

Gender dysphoria is a condition under which a person feels very strongly that their biological gender is wrong. The mind (you can replace "mind" with "spirit") believes with every fiber of its being that it's in the wrong body. What is the medical justification for refusing to fix that?

According to a systematic review published in JAMA Pediatrics in 2020, which analyzed 27 studies on the persistence of gender dysphoria, the average percentage of individuals who no longer experienced gender dysphoria in adolescence or adulthood was around 63%.  In other words, most children who "feel very strongly that their biological gender is wrong" one year, usually don't feel that way by adolescence, or the rest of their lives. 

Wouldn't it suck to high heaven if you ended up a lifelong medical patient with mutilated breasts and fertility issues, because you got your gender affirming treatments and surgeries at 16 based on a childish whim?

I notice the detransition movement is gaining steam.  Every week that goes by, I hear about another few people going public about their horrible conversion experiences.  I keep hearing their doctors told their parents things like "you can either have a living son or a dead daughter".  The "affirm feelings of gender at all costs" standard of medical care will go down in history as the 2020's version of the frontal lobotomy fad of the '40's and '50's. 

[LDSGator]

4 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Wouldn't it suck to high heaven if you ended up a lifelong medical patient with mutilated breasts and fertility issues, because you got your gender affirming treatments and surgeries at 16 based on a childish whim?

That’s my grave concern as well. I have zero issues with an adult undergoing treatment. It’s their life, not mine. 
 

Kids who can’t join the army or get tattoos should not be allowed such a huge, life changing choice. 

[Guest Godless]

14 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

According to a systematic review published in JAMA Pediatrics in 2020, which analyzed 27 studies on the persistence of gender dysphoria, the average percentage of individuals who no longer experienced gender dysphoria in adolescence or adulthood was around 63%.  In other words, most children who "feel very strongly that their biological gender is wrong" one year, usually don't feel that way by adolescence, or the rest of their lives. 

Wouldn't it suck to high heaven if you ended up a lifelong medical patient with mutilated breasts and fertility issues, because you got your gender affirming treatments and surgeries at 16 based on a childish whim?

I notice the detransition movement is gaining steam.  Every week that goes by, I hear about another few people going public about their horrible conversion experiences.  I keep hearing their doctors told their parents things like "you can either have a living son or a dead daughter".  The "affirm feelings of gender at all costs" standard of medical care will go down in history as the 2020's version of the frontal lobotomy fad of the '40's and '50's. 

My understanding of the process is that there's a lot more to it than simply medically accommodating a child who is experiencing gender dysphoria. UCSF lays out a good outline of what the process involves before puberty blockers, hormone therapy, and surgery are put on the table. I don't know how much of that is federal/state law and how much is hospital policy, but I think it's a reasonable and responsible template of how transition care should look. It's not perfect, and it's not immune from post-surgical regret, but I think it debunks the idea that changing one's gender is something a child can simply do on a whim.

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, Godless said:

I think it debunks the idea that changing one's gender is something a child can simply do on a whim.

Yes, the policies and laws vary from hospital to hospital, county to county, state to state.  Again, the number of people gaining the courage to come forward to give their particular stories, grows weekly.  Probably the best known is Chloe Cole:

Quote

In February 2018, she was prescribed the puberty blocker Lupron at age 13. A month later, she started testosterone injections, which she continued for two years. Cole had a double mastectomy at age 15 in June 2020. Less than a year after the surgery, she realized she may want to breastfeed someday, which she would not be able to do. At 17, she reverted to using her birth name and detransitioned. Cole has said that her doctor did not follow the standards of care from the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) and that she did not know detransitioners existed until she was one.
...
She has described herself as having been a "tomboy" who did not fit social norms and only started thinking about transitioning after creating an Instagram account and reportedly being recommended lots of LGBTQ content, particularly content containing transgender boys, telling The Daily Signal Podcast that "social media introduced this idea that I could be a boy".

Cole's parents have stayed out of the media spotlight. Cole says she does not hold them responsible for consenting to her treatment and surgery and that they "received intense social pressure and pressure from medical professionals".

She gave the first account I heard about how easily the doctors accepted her story, and how hard they sold the gender affirming care to her parents, pushing a hardline "support this or he'll commit suicide because you're forcing him to live as a girl".

You can find growing number of other individual accounts, often on social media where they are instantly treated to the most vile behavior that can be found anywhere.  You can also find them giving testimony in hearings before legislators who are considering this or that law.

Yes, republicans are seizing on this issue and passing legislation to force hospitals to do this or that.  There's no shortage of political grandstanding going on, as well as no shortage of needed legislating on the issue.

Yes, the left and social progressives are screaming about our children are unaliving themselves because the evil right wing is preventing them from getting healthcare.  The ACLU has a pretty decent database with links to the sources, in their "Mapping Attacks on LGBTQ rights" page.  https://www.aclu.org/legislative-attacks-on-lgbtq-rights

Yes, you and me and everyone else should look deeply into the issue, before hoping to have valid or useful opinions to voice.  

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by NeuroTypical

[NeuroTypical]

Here's a decent source for relevant data on the numbers of minors seeking gender care.   Perspective is important. 

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-data/

[Carborendum]

3 hours ago, Godless said:

This is an interesting thought experiment. We see examples all the time of people being born into imperfect bodies, and modern technology has come a long way in giving us the ability to correct physical imperfections.

Yes, of course.  But that doesn't change the fact that there is a definition that people are trying to change.  Do we change the definition of human being as a bipedal mammal just because some people happen to be born with one leg?  Or do we change the definition of a human being as a mammal with whatever number of legs one has?

No.  The definition still stands.  But we recognize that some things happen.  Whether that is a genetic anomaly, malformation in the womb, or some mishap after birth, these are considered anomalies.  We don't change the defintion of human because of these anomalies.

But for some reason, you seem to be supporting the idea of changing the definition of male and female based on something which cannot logically be proven with any physical evidence.

3 hours ago, Godless said:

Gender dysphoria is a condition under which a person feels very strongly that their biological gender is wrong.

I very strongly feel that I am king of the English language.  Are you going to accept my insistence?  What if I choose to change the definition of a word that you use all the time.  But I change it every five years?

What if I decide I'm actually 17 years old and I can now legally have sex with a minor.  Are you going to go along with that?  Why not?  You're only as old as you feel.  And I'll tell you what I was mistaken for a teenager when I was in my late 30s.  And I had the physical endurance, flexibility, and energy of a teenager at that time as well.

You're willing to accept it when someone wants to change the definition of sex but not of age.  Why is that?

3 hours ago, Godless said:

The mind (you can replace "mind" with "spirit") believes with every fiber of its being that it's in the wrong body. What is the medical justification for refusing to fix that?

For now, the medical justification is that "treating" with hormones and mutilation is not in reality changing the underlying fact of whether the body is male or female.  NO male who has undergone transition in any way shape or form will ever be able to bear a child from his own ovum.  That will never change.  NO female who has undergone transition will ever be able to impregnate a woman from her own sperm.

And humoring someone has done tremendous damage.

I've posted this before.  But it bears repeating.  There was a man who thought he was a woman and posted on social media how much pain menstrual cramps were.  He was showing so much sympathy/empathy for real women because it hurt so much.  Multiple individuals had to remind him that in order to have menstrual cramps, one had to have a uterus.  He did not.

One person showed compassion on him and begged him to get it checked out because pain on that level without a uterus could be the early stages of intestinal cancer.

What do you think happened to that man who insisted it wasn't cancer but was actually menstrual cramps?  Do you really believe it does no harm?

3 hours ago, Godless said:

It's a rare condition, but true biological hermaphrodites exist. If a sexual anomaly (for our species) like that can exist in nature, is it that much of a leap to think that people can be born mentally/spiritually incompatible with their biological sex?

First, It's more rare than you think.

There are "true" hermaphrodites that have some functionality in both sexes.  Fewer than 10 in worldwide recorded history.  None of them could produce both types of gametes.  Dare I say "outlier"?

There are apparent hermaphrodites that have some physiology exhibiting sex organs of both sexes, but are sterile because they cannot produce gametes. Many were impotent.

And there are other conditions that are also often brought into the debate.  But most are not germane to the discussion.  They are completely different issues.

Second, we're many things mentally, but we change to fit reality.

If I am "mentally" an NBA player, but my underlying biology is set to develop into the body of a professional jockey, would you want to encourage me to get surgery to lengthen my legs and take hormones starting before puberty so I could grow large enough to become that NBA player?

Third, whatever happened to the distinction oft cited by the left about "gender" and "sex" being completely different?  It seems that this is the beginning. But by the end of the sales pitch, they're all the same thing again.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Carborendum

[Vort]

10 hours ago, Godless said:

The mind (you can replace "mind" with "spirit") believes with every fiber of its being that it's in the wrong body. What is the medical justification for refusing to fix that?

The medical justification for refusing to "fix" that is the same medical justification for refusing to cut someone in half vertically because he really, really thinks he should be cut in half vertically—namely, the ancient Hippocratic oath: "First, do no harm."

The problem above is a problem of a dysfunctional mind, not of an incorrectly sexed body.

[Vort]

10 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

The "affirm feelings of gender at all costs" standard of medical care will go down in history as the 2020's version of the frontal lobotomy fad of the '40's and '50's.

And those who champion it should for the rest of their lives be held in at least as much contempt as the frontal lobotomy folks.

[laronius]

9 hours ago, Godless said:

My understanding of the process is that there's a lot more to it than simply medically accommodating a child who is experiencing gender dysphoria. UCSF lays out a good outline of what the process involves before puberty blockers, hormone therapy, and surgery are put on the table. I don't know how much of that is federal/state law and how much is hospital policy, but I think it's a reasonable and responsible template of how transition care should look. It's not perfect, and it's not immune from post-surgical regret, but I think it debunks the idea that changing one's gender is something a child can simply do on a whim.

The other day I called a client and spent a good 5 minutes explaining something to him, trying to make sure he understood exactly what was going on. Only after giving my thorough explanation did he tell me I had the wrong number and he wasn't my client. True story. He said he was taught it was rude to interrupt. 

[NeuroTypical]

Ooh! The winds continue to shift!  There are plenty of folks who claim the science is settled on the goodness and desirability of genders affirming trans healthcare for minors.  But:

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2023/04/gender-affirming-care-debate-europe-dutch-protocol/673890/

My woke progressive arguing buddies really like The Atlantic. This is a good link to toss out into discussions with folks.

[Ironhold]

14 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Ooh! The winds continue to shift!  There are plenty of folks who claim the science is settled on the goodness and desirability of genders affirming trans healthcare for minors.  But:

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2023/04/gender-affirming-care-debate-europe-dutch-protocol/673890/

My woke progressive arguing buddies really like The Atlantic. This is a good link to toss out into discussions with folks.

I've been trying to track it down, but apparently a 2021 study from up in Canada revealed that something like 88% of a group of minors who had sought gender-affirming care no longer considered themselves to be transgender by 20. 

Of that 88%, something like 63% said that the initial reason they had pursued care was because they were struggling with homosexual urges and initially believed that by transitioning they would be heterosexual again, only to ultimately accept their being homosexual. 

[NeuroTypical]

It wouldn't surprise me.  I noticed there's a "save the tomboys" campaign started by the lesbians.  Some of them are a little miffed that young women are being pressured into accepting they're men, just because they don't like girly things, might be a little more rough and tumble than normal, aren't interested in boys, etc.

[Ironhold]

41 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

It wouldn't surprise me.  I noticed there's a "save the tomboys" campaign started by the lesbians.  Some of them are a little miffed that young women are being pressured into accepting they're men, just because they don't like girly things, might be a little more rough and tumble than normal, aren't interested in boys, etc.

Funny you should mention tomboys, as this (admittedly risqué) comic series just got an anime adaptation earlier in the year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomo-chan_Is_a_Girl! (still need to watch it, but have read summaries & reviews).

A tomboy has fallen in love with the guy she's known since childhood, but is blindsided when he assumes her confession of love is her reaffirming that she still wants to be friends. She polls a group of female classmates as to what could have happened, not realizing that one of the other girls doesn't have her best interests at heart. The other girl is jealous that the tomboy outperforms her both physically and academically, and so deliberately tries to throw the tomboy off by arguing that the guy doesn't see her as a girl and so she needs to be more effeminate. 

In reality, the guy is - like a lot of teenagers - dealing with some mental health issues. He *knows* that the tomboy is in love with him, but his response was calculated to keep her at arm's length because as much as he loves her he knew that until he got himself sorted he couldn't be the boyfriend she needed him to be. Fortunately, both of their parents finally connect the dots and realize that something's wrong, and eventually coax him into opening up. When the tomboy learns that he's not well, she explains that she loves him anyway and that she's willing to stand by him for however long it takes. 

[Guest Godless]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

It wouldn't surprise me.  I noticed there's a "save the tomboys" campaign started by the lesbians.  Some of them are a little miffed that young women are being pressured into accepting they're men, just because they don't like girly things, might be a little more rough and tumble than normal, aren't interested in boys, etc.

Pressured by whom?

[Ironhold]

7 hours ago, Godless said:

Pressured by whom?

There's a ready supply of anecdotal stories in which children as young as elementary school were told that to enjoy things typically associated with the opposite gender was to be transgender. This is usually the result of left-leaning teachers or school counselors taking it upon themselves to diagnose children and begin transitioning them. 

[NeuroTypical]

14 hours ago, Godless said:

16 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Some of them are a little miffed that young women are being pressured into accepting they're men, 

Pressured by whom?

Social media, peers, pop culture on places like instagram and snapchat and whatnot.   They're not hiding it, and haven't for a year or two now.  This video came out in 2021:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArOQF4kadHA

 

 

 

 

Nickelodeon's Transformers:Earthspark now has a nonbinary character.

 

And schools.  Don't forget schools.

 

 

Random teacher on TikTok:

 

Elementary school:

 

Middle and High School libraries across the nation stocking This Book is Gay:

 

Elected councilmember in Phoenix advertising this on her twitter acct:

 

 

 

 

[NeuroTypical]

Hope I gave you a sufficient answer @Godless.  I can come up with eight hundred fribbleillion more examples if you like.  I mean, you might not consider this pressure per se, and that would be fair.  The pressure people tell me they receive, comes from the peer groups and family members who are fans of this educational wave.

If you like, I can hunt down a couple detransitioner stories describing the social pressure they felt.

Edited May 21, 2023 by NeuroTypical

[Guest Godless]

3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Hope I gave you a sufficient answer @Godless.  I can come up with eight hundred fribbleillion more examples if you like.  I mean, you might not consider this pressure per se, and that would be fair.  The pressure people tell me they receive, comes from the peer groups and family members who are fans of this educational wave.

If you like, I can hunt down a couple detransitioner stories describing the social pressure they felt.

No, none of what you posted is what I would call "pressure". I have friends who are gay, trans, non-binary, and all sorts of other queer identities, and I want my son to grow up respecting them, their lifestyles, and their identities (names/pronouns). His mom and I do our best to instill that in him at home, and I'm glad to have the support of the school district as well.

I get that religious people are generally going to feel differently. But ignorance is the seed from which hate often grows, and I think it's important for our youth not to be ignorant of the LGBTQ community. Kids need to learn that queer folks are just as worthy of our respect as anyone else in our society so that they grow up to treat everyone with fairness and dignity.

Alternatively, we could keep everything they see 100% cis and hetero, go back to treating the LGBTQ community like a social cancer, and see where that gets us. We've played that game before. Spoiler alert: it involves a lot of innocent people being murdered, assaulted, and driven to depression and suicide.

[NeuroTypical]

14 minutes ago, Godless said:

No, none of what you posted is what I would call "pressure".

Fair enough, I suppose.  Although when I show you the hateful reaction when Louisiana made it illegal for teachers to hide a minor's transition from parents, and you react with comments about "support of the school district" and how "ignorance is the seed from which hate often grows", it makes me wonder if you have thought things through. 

 

How about:
https://washingtonstand.com/news/transition-or-suicide-detransitioner-recalls-pressure-manipulation-to-transition

Quote

“I found a gender affirming therapist, who was certified by WPATH, online. And I had a very brief, like 15-to-30-minute, appointment with her, wherein she told me that I was a boy.”

Mosley continued:
“On that very first appointment with Shana Gordon [LCMHC, MA, WPATH member], she told me my projected path. She said, ‘You are going to get top surgery and bottom surgery because you need it to be aligned. And I will write you your letters of recommendation, when you need them, for the next one. Here’s yours for hormones. But this is your path.’”

Mosley said the rapid pace continued:
“I began testosterone within weeks — getting a letter of recommendation. … Then I took that letter of recommendation to a pediatric endocrinologist. And, that very same day, I started testosterone. And then, not even a whole year later, at 18, I had a radical double mastectomy.”

or:

https://pitt.substack.com/p/detransitioner-perspective-how-trans

Quote

When transitioning and questioning gender, one seeks out other trans-identifying people to talk with, often in online trans “safe spaces” such as Reddit forums or Discord chat rooms. In these so-called “safe spaces”, people’s cross-sex identities and the efficacy of transition are never to be questioned (since to question would be to drive someone to suicide). Minors are allowed into these safe spaces, and trans activists justify by saying that, for many minors, these spaces are the only spaces where their cross-sex identities are affirmed (and this affirmation is necessary to prevent suicide). In reality, oftentimes these safe spaces critique all narratives that counter the gender ideology dogma, purportedly to avoid exposing users to “transphobia” — again, for fear of causing suicide. Discussions of autogynephilia, a paraphilia where men are sexually aroused by the idea of themselves as women, are considered “transphobic” and are therefore also forbidden on these forums, despite being a well-documented phenomenon. The one-sided nature of these forums, in general, makes them an echo chamber of transition positivity, which is misleading, alluring, and self-fulfilling, especially for unhappy people.

These spaces also promote highly-stereotyped ideas of what male and female are, which can lead a person with no prior gender confusion to begin to doubt themselves upon finding these spaces. For instance, people in these spaces will say that disliking having breasts as a female, liking boy-bands or not wanting to be a stereotypical big strong man as a male, and even same-sex attraction are all evidence that you are trans and reasons you should transition. The worst spaces for this are trans meme forums such as Reddit’s r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns and r/egg_irl forums. While trans activists may try to say that these forums should not be taken seriously because they are intended to be humorous—however many cite the info and conversations they read on these forums as the reason they chose to transition.

 

or:

https://nypost.com/2022/06/18/detransitioned-teens-explain-why-they-regret-changing-genders/

Quote

Dr. Lisa Littman, a former professor of Behavioral and Social Sciences at Brown University, coined the term “rapid onset gender dysphoria” to describe this subset of transgender youth, typically biological females who become suddenly dysphoric during or shortly after puberty. Littman believes this may be due to adolescent girls’ susceptibility to peer influence on social media.

...

“I was going through a period where I was just really isolated at school, so I turned to the Internet,” she recalled. In her real life, Kerschner had a falling out with friends at school; online however, she found a community that welcomed her. “My dysphoria was definitely triggered by this online community. I never thought about my gender or had a problem with being a girl before going on Tumblr.”

“There was a lot of negativity around being a cis, heterosexual, white girl, and I took those messages really, really personally.”

Helena Kerschner, on how the online trans community made her feel pressured to change gender

She said she felt political pressure to transition, too. “The community was very social justice-y. There was a lot of negativity around being a cis, heterosexual, white girl, and I took those messages really, really personally.”

Chloe Cole, a 17-year-old student in California, had a similar experience when she joined Instagram at 11. “I started being exposed to a lot of LGBT content and activism,” she said. “I saw how trans people online got an overwhelming amount of support, and the amount of praise they were getting really spoke to me because, at the time, I didn’t really have a lot of friends of my own.”

...

According to an online survey of detransitioners conducted by Dr. Lisa Littman last year, 40% said their gender dysphoria was caused by a mental-health condition and 62% felt medical professionals did not investigate whether trauma was a factor in their transition decisions.

 

or:

https://torontosun.com/news/world/transgender-psychologist-suggests-peer-pressure-causing-teens-to-transition

Quote

“For a while, we were all happy that society was becoming more accepting and more families than ever were embracing children that were gender variant,” Anderson told the Times.

“I think it’s gone too far. Now it’s got to the point where there are kids presenting at clinics whose parents say, ‘This just doesn’t make sense.’ To flatly say there couldn’t be any social influence in formation of gender identity flies in the face of reality. Teenagers influence each other.”

Anderson, who has helped hundreds of teens transition, questions whether there are thorough enough mental health evaluations being done before hormones or surgeries are recommended to youths unsure about transitioning.

...

Kieria Bell, 26, filed a lawsuit against the U.K.’s only youth gender clinic in 2021 claiming she only had “a series of superficial conversations” with social workers as she started transitioning at 16 before regretting her mastectomy at 20.

“Hormones on demand will result in many more cases of poor outcomes and many more disappointed kids and parents who somehow came to believe that giving kids hormones would cure their other psychological problems,” Anderson told the Times. “It won’t.”

 

Do any of those count as what you would consider "pressure"?  I mean, if there's a need for scare quotes around that word, maybe we should define what the term means.  Would that help?

[Guest Godless]

As a father, I hate the thought of my son being afraid to talk to his mom and I about things going on in his personal life. Children shouldn't fear their parents' wrath because they have feelings and urges that are deemed evil. By all means, teach them where your Church stands on these issues. But be careful how you frame those who follow LGBTQ lifestyles. Kids notice more than we think.

[NeuroTypical]

4 minutes ago, Godless said:

As a father, I hate the thought of my son being afraid to talk to his mom and I about things going on in his personal life. Children shouldn't fear their parents' wrath because they have feelings and urges that are deemed evil. By all means, teach them where your Church stands on these issues. But be careful how you frame those who follow LGBTQ lifestyles. Kids notice more than we think.

So, I can appreciate all that, but I'm trying to discuss a point I made that you questioned.  I mentioned pressure to transition, you asked about this pressure.  I've tried to provide examples of what I'm talking about, including several accounts of people claiming they were pressured, and several articles mentioning the pressure.  

Have I answered your question?  Do you see that sometimes there's a pressure on confused kids to think of themselves as transgender, and sometimes this pressure results in some pretty tragic mistakes with lifelong consequences?

 

[Guest Godless]

On 5/21/2023 at 6:35 PM, NeuroTypical said:

Fair enough, I suppose.  Although when I show you the hateful reaction when Louisiana made it illegal for teachers to hide a minor's transition from parents, and you react with comments about "support of the school district" and how "ignorance is the seed from which hate often grows", it makes me wonder if you have thought things through. 

TBH, I'm a bit torn on that law. On one hand, I don't want my son's teacher keeping information from me about my child. OTOH, teachers have a responsibility to protect their students, and it's a sad reality that this sometimes means protecting kids from their parents. So I suppose my stance on this is that I don't want to be the type of parent that my son's teacher feels the need to protect him from.

On 5/21/2023 at 6:35 PM, NeuroTypical said:

How about:
https://washingtonstand.com/news/transition-or-suicide-detransitioner-recalls-pressure-manipulation-to-transition

or:

https://pitt.substack.com/p/detransitioner-perspective-how-trans

 

or:

https://nypost.com/2022/06/18/detransitioned-teens-explain-why-they-regret-changing-genders/

 

or:

https://torontosun.com/news/world/transgender-psychologist-suggests-peer-pressure-causing-teens-to-transition

 

Do any of those count as what you would consider "pressure"?  I mean, if there's a need for scare quotes around that word, maybe we should define what the term means.  Would that help?

The therapist in your first example sounds like a terrible therapist. They're out there, unfortunately.

As for the rest, it's believable. Adolescence is a very emotional and confusing time, and sketchy things are bound to happen when you get a bunch of emotional, confused, and vulnerable teens together on the internet. I'd say this is more reason, not less, for parents and teachers to be good allies. Without the support and guidance of an understanding and responsible adult(s), kids will only have their peers to shape them.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Godless

[NeuroTypical]

For my part, we've raised our kiddos to not hate and not be ignorant.  They're old enough now to understand the difference between gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia.  They've witnessed both parents sitting there not-hating people who think, act, and are different from us.  We've given age appropriate information about who we are and how people are different, since they could talk.  The 2nd great commandment is "love thy neighbor as thyself", and everyone is my neighbor.