Mormon 9:5

[askandanswer]

I thought I would share something from my scripture study this morning in the hope that it might be of interest of benefit to someone else. After an absence of more than 2 months I have finally returned to study instead of reading.

For behold, when ye shall be brought to see your ^anakedness[ 1]  before God, and also the glory of God, and the ^bholiness of Jesus Christ, it will kindle a flame of unquenchable fire upon you[2] .

 

---

 [1]Probably this means something like exposure, to be seen as we are, with every subterfuge and all guile and pretense stripped away, without shield, protection or defence. Everything will be open to examination and nothing can be hidden.

 [2]This is the moment when we will fully realise the difference between what we are and what we could be or could have been. The knowledge of that difference and the realisation that we have missed, forever, that opportunity, that we have lost that potential to become as Jesus Christ, will be the flames of that unquenchable fire.

This is the awful, eternal fate that Mormon, motivated by love, is trying to save us from with his pleadings in verse 6.

Edited June 5, 2023 by askandanswer

[Traveler]

12 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I thought I would share something from my scripture study this morning in the hope that it might be of interest of benefit to someone else. After an absence of more than 2 months I have finally returned to study instead of reading.

For behold, when ye shall be brought to see your ^anakedness[ 1]  before God, and also the glory of God, and the ^bholiness of Jesus Christ, it will kindle a flame of unquenchable fire upon you[2] .

 

---

 [1]Probably this means something like exposure, to be seen as we are, with every subterfuge and all guile and pretense stripped away, without shield, protection or defence. Everything will be open to examination and nothing can be hidden.

 [2]This is the moment when we will fully realise the difference between what we are and what we could be or could have been. The knowledge of that difference and the realisation that we have missed, forever, that opportunity, that we have lost that potential to become as Jesus Christ, will be the flames of that unquenchable fire.

This is the awful, eternal fate that Mormon, motivated by love, is trying to save us from with his pleadings in verse 6.

I believe there is another element.  I believe that as we each have come into mortality, we are all given spiritual (and perhaps physical) handicaps.  Something that in part diverts from the divine glory we had arisen to in our pre-existence – including our relationship to our Father and to Jesus Christ.   All of what we have come to be from mortality and our pre-existence will be open for examination (especially to ourselves) – nothing to be hidden.

 

The Traveler

[Carborendum]

13 hours ago, askandanswer said:

For behold, when ye shall be brought to see your ^anakedness[ 1]  before God, and also the glory of God, and the ^bholiness of Jesus Christ, it will kindle a flame of unquenchable fire upon you[2] .

This certainly has multiple levels to the interpretation.

I'd point out that the nakedness and the holiness are indicated here as opposite/contrasting conditions.  The nakedness refers to lacking in holiness.  This is the temple symbolism.  When we are clothed in the garments & robes of the holy priesthood, we  do not stand naked before God.  And we can withstand the glory of God.  The Fire of Jesus' glory will be familiar.  And we shall see Him as He really is, for we shall be like Him.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Carborendum

[laronius]

13 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I thought I would share something from my scripture study this morning in the hope that it might be of interest of benefit to someone else. After an absence of more than 2 months I have finally returned to study instead of reading.

For behold, when ye shall be brought to see your ^anakedness[ 1]  before God, and also the glory of God, and the ^bholiness of Jesus Christ, it will kindle a flame of unquenchable fire upon you[2] .

 

---

 [1]Probably this means something like exposure, to be seen as we are, with every subterfuge and all guile and pretense stripped away, without shield, protection or defence. Everything will be open to examination and nothing can be hidden.

 [2]This is the moment when we will fully realise the difference between what we are and what we could be or could have been. The knowledge of that difference and the realisation that we have missed, forever, that opportunity, that we have lost that potential to become as Jesus Christ, will be the flames of that unquenchable fire.

This is the awful, eternal fate that Mormon, motivated by love, is trying to save us from with his pleadings in verse 6.

2 Nephi 9:14 Wherefore, we shall have a perfect knowledge of all our guilt, and our uncleanness, and our nakedness; and the righteous shall have a perfect knowledge of their enjoyment, and their righteousness, being clothed with purity, yea, even with the robe of righteousness.

 

It appears from the scriptures that the resurrection immediately precedes this final judgement so that when we stand before God we will already have received our immortal bodies clothed with whatever degree of glory we have merited. Whether we stand with or without actual clothing, it will be plainly manifest in our very being what kind of a person we have become.

I think you are right about that moment of realization. The wicked may even experience a moment of joy in the resurrection as they receive a glorified body. But once they come to see how inferior that body is to what could have been there's it will be a sad day in deed. 

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

Something from the Armenian Apocrypha of Adam and Eve.

Quote

 

One of the first things I notice in paragraph 2 of the Armenian texts is that the serpent is clearly identified with Satan, which is not explicit in Genesis.  One of the manuscripts reads:

The evil one, Satan, . . . having entered into the belly of the serpent, he spoke to Eve with human voice, and he said to Eve, “Why is it that you do not eat of the fruit of that tree?” ((Stone, 23.))

In another manuscript, Satan calls the fruit “beautiful.”  In all manuscripts, Satan refers specifically to “that tree” or “this fruit,” whereas in Genesis the question is more general, “hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?” (Gen. 3:1).  Eve responds by telling Satan of the commandment as given to them by God.  Satan then replies, in one of the manuscripts:

But the serpent said, “(That is) not so!  Because God himself was a man like you when he ate of it, and he became God of all.  Because of that he said not to eat of that, because you knew that when you eat of it, you will become a god, his equal.  Because of that he said for you not to eat.” ((Stone, 25.))

This is substantially different than the Genesis account.  In Genesis, the partaking of the fruit is noted by Satan as causing eyes to be opened, and that they would become “as gods,” by “knowing good and evil” (Gen. 3:5).  In this apocryphal account Satan goes further to note that God was once a man too, and that He became God by eating of the fruit, and thus became divine.  If Adam and Eve partake of it they will become like Him, or “his equal.”  Stone also notes here that text is explicit “that God was himself originally human and became divine through eating the fruit” ((ibid.)).  These are interesting details to consider, for even though it is Satan who speaks, there is both truth and error in his words to Eve (see Gen. 3:22).

After hearing this, Eve partakes of the fruit, and is stripped of her light or glory.  At this point the Armenian text embellishes the story significantly from what is contained in the Genesis account.  In Genesis it is only noted that Eve “gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat” (Gen. 3:6).  But what was the interchange between Eve and Adam?  Did Adam say anything to Eve on the occasion?  Did Adam protest at all?  What did Eve say?  How did Eve convince Adam to partake?  These details are strangely absent from the Genesis account, and there is no account of any conversation there.

The Armenian texts provide further details, including a conversation between Adam and Eve.  One of the manuscripts says:

When she came to Adam and he saw and said, “Why is it that you have been stripped naked? Did you eat of that fruit?”  Eve said, “O Adam, take (it) and eat!”  Adam said, “I fear (lest) I become stripped naked like you.” ((Stone, 27.))

In other words, upon recognizing what Eve has done, Adam immediately interrogates Eve with questions of what she has done, why she is stripped, and if she has eaten of the fruit of the forbidden tree.  Eve only wants Adam to also eat of the fruit.  Adam protests doing it, for he knows that he too will be stripped of his glory.

Eve responds that Adam is beloved of God, and might not be angry with him.  John Tvedtnes notes that Adam says “I cannot taste it and become like you” ((FAIR 1999 presentation.  See note above.)).  Eve invites Adam to partake again.  Tvedtnes also notes in one translation that Eve tells Adam that “This fruit is extremely sweet and tasty” ((ibid.)).  Adam holds the fruit in his hand, and ponders eating the fruit for some time (in one account three hours).  One manuscript relates Adam’s thoughts: “If I do not eat, I shall be separated from my wife” ((Stone, 29.)).  In another manuscript Eve also echos similar words:

Do not forget me and do not separate me from you, and do not abandon me in this nakedness of mine.  Take (it) and eat and because of love of you, God will turn and have mercy upon us. ((Stone, 31.))

Adam considers the consequences and partakes:

“It is preferable to die with the woman than to be separated from her.”  He took and consumed the fruit, and was stripped naked of the light. ((Stone, 33))

And so we see that the Armenian text adds quite a bit of detail to the story of the Fall of Adam and Eve, much of which is not present in the Genesis account.

Michael Stone’s book Armenian Apocrypha Relating to Adam and Eve is available for limited reading on Google Books.

 

This version of the story seems to say that the stipping was of their glory or robes of light. I hope that someday we will get the whole story from a revelation from God. 

[Vort]

3 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Something from the Armenian Apocrypha of Adam and Eve.

This version of the story seems to say that the stipping was of their glory or robes of light. I hope that someday we will get the whole story from a revelation from God. 

So they didn't realize their own nudity so much as they perceived that they had become denuded. Interesting.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

So they didn't realize their own nudity so much as they perceived that they had become denuded. Interesting.

It was also that Adam noticed that she had lost her glory, she had become a mortal telestial being from the celestial or terrestrial glory she had before she partook.

Edited June 7, 2023 by Emmanuel Goldstein

[mikbone]

Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

I hope in my case its everlasting burnings and not the devouring fire…

 

Discourse, 7 April 1844, as Reported by Wilford Woodruff, p. 135, The Joseph Smith Papers, accessed June 7, 2023, https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/discourse-7-april-1844-as-reported-by-wilford-woodruff/3?highlight=everlasting burnings

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by mikbone

[askandanswer]

On 6/7/2023 at 11:09 PM, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Something from the Armenian Apocrypha of Adam and Eve.

This version of the story seems to say that the stipping was of their glory or robes of light. I hope that someday we will get the whole story from a revelation from God. 

Thanks @Emmanuel Goldstein, this is very interesting, I haven't looked at much apocryphal literature before.

[Jersey Boy]

On 6/4/2023 at 8:22 PM, askandanswer said:

I thought I would share something from my scripture study this morning in the hope that it might be of interest of benefit to someone else. After an absence of more than 2 months I have finally returned to study instead of reading.

For behold, when ye shall be brought to see your ^anakedness[ 1]  before God, and also the glory of God, and the ^bholiness of Jesus Christ, it will kindle a flame of unquenchable fire upon you[2] .

 

---

 [1]Probably this means something like exposure, to be seen as we are, with every subterfuge and all guile and pretense stripped away, without shield, protection or defence. Everything will be open to examination and nothing can be hidden.

 [2]This is the moment when we will fully realise the difference between what we are and what we could be or could have been. The knowledge of that difference and the realisation that we have missed, forever, that opportunity, that we have lost that potential to become as Jesus Christ, will be the flames of that unquenchable fire.

This is the awful, eternal fate that Mormon, motivated by love, is trying to save us from with his pleadings in verse 6.

Context is all-important when it comes to gaining a correct understanding of the word of God, and by presenting the above verse in isolation and out of context.you misunderstand the actual intended meaning of the words. The verses that precede Mormon 9:5 make it clear that Mormon is speaking of those who will remain in their sins as implacable enemies of Christ at the time of the final judgement. In other words, Mormon is speaking of none other than the unbowed and unrepentant sons of perdition who remain ‘filthy still,’ even after the resurrection. Doctrine and Covenants sections 76 and 138 makes it clear that all will eventually come unto Christ, receive a remission of their sins, and inherit a blessed kingdom of heavenly glory befitting their degree of faith and diligence, except for the sons of perdition.

1 And now, I speak also concerning those who do not believe in Christ.

2 Behold, will ye believe in the day of your visitation—behold, when the Lord shall come, yea, even that ^agreat day when the ^bearth shall be rolled together as a scroll, and the elements shall ^cmelt with fervent heat, yea, in that great day when ye shall be brought to stand before the Lamb of God—then will ye say that there is no God?

3 Then will ye longer deny the Christ, or can ye behold the Lamb of God? Do ye suppose that ye shall dwell with him under a ^aconsciousness of your guilt? Do ye suppose that ye could be happy to dwell with that holy Being, when your souls are racked with a consciousness of guilt that ye have ever abused his laws?

4 Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your ^afilthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the ^bdamned souls in ^chell. (Mormon 9)