Do you fast?

[zil2]

33 minutes ago, Vort said:

I certainly do not disagree. The problem with this attitude is that it seems to encourage people not to read or consider closely. Instead, they just read quickly and go with whatever their first impression is. This might actually work out well at times, but in general, I trust Joseph Smith's teachings: "The things of God are of deep import; and time, and experience, and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out."

I also don't disagree.   From my perspective, the usefulness in recognizing that one's understanding may be inaccurate or incomplete is in being patient when you don't perceive blessings and in continuing to study, ponder, and pray for further understanding (rather than assuming you've already got all the understanding you need).

[mikbone]

Mark 9: 29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

Wonder if they would come forth with a partial fast and half hearted prayer?

During internship we would care for patients with pancreatitis.  The treatment was strict fasting no food or water for sometimes weeks.  They all lived.  It’s uncomfortable and we gave them IV fluids and occasionally IV nutrition but the human body can survive a prolonged fast.  A 24 hour fast is not really that impressive.

Read this then complain about a 24 hour fast.

Edited July 19, 2023 by mikbone

[laronius]

I think it would be fair to say that doing anything that physically harms our body would be breaking the word of wisdom or in more generic terms, breaking a law of God. For most people fasting is actually a healthy exercise. But for some it is not. So it could be argued that it is impossible for those individuals to obey both laws. What then?

Like @Vortsays, I think there are blessings that are missed when, for whatever reason, we fail to obey a commandment. But I also believe in the compensating power of God to make these people whole because of divine grace. How exactly that happens I don't know. But I believe it just the same.

 

[LDSGator]

8 minutes ago, laronius said:

I think it would be fair to say that doing anything that physically harms our body would be breaking the word of wisdom or in more generic terms, breaking a law of God. For most people fasting is actually a healthy exercise. But for some it is not. So it could be argued that it is impossible for those individuals to obey both laws. What then?

Like @Vortsays, I think there are blessings that are missed when, for whatever reason, we fail to obey a commandment. But I also believe in the compensating power of God to make these people whole because of divine grace. How exactly that happens I don't know. But I believe it just the same.

 

Well said. 

[Carborendum]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

It means that blessings from heaven are predicated upon the structure of the very fabric of the universe, and when we receive a blessing from heaven, it is because we've operated within the bounds of the immutable spiritual physics that governs that blessing.

 

2 hours ago, Vort said:

I understand "law" to mean an eternal, inexorable permanent truth, a clear statement about the way the universe operates.

Verse 20

1. There is a LAW irrevocably decreed...
2. Upon which all BLESSINGS are predicated.

One law... all blessings.

Verse 21

1. Any BLESSING
2. That Law upon which it is predicated

Generically speaking about blessings... a law for the blessing.

Quote

I believe the word "law" in v. 21 refers to the same example law as proposed in v. 20.

Well, there is a problem here. A single overarching law upon which all blessings are predicated.

Yet any blessing is predicated upon one and only one law?

I would submit that the language between v 20 and 21 indicate that there are (as most gospel principles do) more variables in play for certain blessings.

While I think it would be fruitless to try to quantify something as non-material as "blessings", it is a mental exercise that we are talking about.  And even without quantitative analysis, a qualitative analysis of the above verses indicates to me that any blessing is brought about by obedience to a combination of laws. 

And (with certain exceptions that the Lord has clearly outlined) a slight weakness in "perfect" obedience to one law feeding into a particular blessing can be made up for by increasing the other variables.

• If you take vitamins supplements to provide the RDA of all vitamins and minerals, you will be healthier.
• If you have a perfectly balanced diet of nutrient rich foods, you will be healthier.

We see evidence of this all throughout the gospel.  Apart from those exceptions (e.g. faith in Christ, repentance, covenants, receiving the Holy Ghost, and probably some more) any number of things contribute to our relationship with the Lord.  And many of them have MULTIPLE blessings.  And there is a lot of overlap between many other laws we obey.

Of course, none of this is helpful if we don't know all the cause and effect connections between various laws and their conjugate blessings.  And this will cause us to do stupid things.

• Healthy diet is important to health
• Proper sleep is important to health
• Proper exercise is important to health.

We obviously cannot reduce exercise, and then sleep extra hours to make up for it.  We understand this because we have a great deal of knowledge about physical health.  How much do we know about spiritual health?

And this is where I agree with you that many people simply don't take it seriously enough.  And even if it is taken seriously, what do they actually do?

Quote

I may be dying of dehydration on an island with only a poisoned pond as a source of water.  But it would be unwise to simply say, "Well, I'll die without any water anyway.  So, I guess I'll just drink from this pond."

On the one hand, I know I've noticed a slight diminishment in some of the blessings I've experienced in fasting since I started drinking a diminished water ration (as opposed to complete abstinence) on fast Sundays.  On the other hand, that may simply mean that I have yet to find another law that will shunt that weakness.  And to my shame, I haven't really been looking.

I guess I should look and see how that helps or not.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Carborendum

[The Folk Prophet]

5 hours ago, Vort said:

I disagree. Of course they will be held to account for it. We must all of us account to God for our actions. Little children are not held to account, according to our teachings. But we are. If we are forced, then our accounting will consist of reporting, "I was forced." If we are enslaved to our appetites such that we no longer have the ability to resist evil, that will be our account. If we are blameless, then there will be no blame. But account we will.

You are using the word accountability to mean something different that I am. I believe we've descended into a semantic debate.

5 hours ago, Vort said:

So in effect, what you and Carb seem to be saying is, "There are no blessings predicated upon keeping the law of the fast."

This feels like a strange interpretation of what I said.

[Backroads]

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

the human body can survive a prolonged fast.  A 24 hour fast is not really that impressive.

I think our modern society forgets that prolonged time-without-food was once a norm. I daresay the 3-meals-a-day is more cultural than anything. The average human body can likely survive just fine on more than 24 hours. Perhaps not the more harrowing lengths mikbone referenced, but a few days without food likely won't have more detrimental effects than some irritability. 

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

A single overarching law upon which all blessings are predicated.

I submit that what it really says is that there is a law law says: "All blessings are predicated on obedience to laws."  Given this law, we understand that "whenever we obtain any blessing, it is through obedience to the law upon which said blessing was predicated".  (My interpretation.)

Of course, there's also the more general law of obedience, so perhaps it really is one law - when we obtain blessings, it is because we obeyed.  (But "upon that law" implies "as opposed to some other law", so, yeah, back where we started. )  It occurs to me that this debate could be solved through perfect obedience...  Then the question of which laws or how many laws or whatever would become academic...

2 minutes ago, Backroads said:

...but a few days without food likely won't have more detrimental effects than some irritability.

I recently heard (and have yet to try to confirm it) that a 2-day fast will cause the body to produce HGH (which is good for you), so, yeah, maybe longer fasts ought to be more common (assuming this or other benefits will result).

[Vort]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

6 hours ago, Vort said:

So in effect, what you and Carb seem to be saying is, "There are no blessings predicated upon keeping the law of the fast."

This feels like a strange interpretation of what I said.

Well, that seems to me to be the logical interpretation. I offered it because I think it's a strange thing to think. You obviously have another interpretation in mind. Would you share that interpretation, an interpretation that allows there to be blessings specifically attached to the law of the fast, yet that do not require actual fasting in order to receive, as seems to be suggested by D&C 130:20-21?

[Vort]

1 minute ago, zil2 said:

I recently heard (and have yet to try to confirm it) that a 2-day fast will cause the body to produce HGH (which is good for you), so, yeah, maybe longer fasts ought to be more common (assuming this or other benefits will result).

So eating less will cause you to grow bigger. Ah, the irony.

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

Well, that seems to me to be the logical interpretation. I offered it because I think it's a strange thing to think. You obviously have another interpretation in mind. Would you share that interpretation, an interpretation that allows there to be blessings specifically attached to the law of the fast, yet that do not require actual fasting in order to receive, as seems to be suggested by D&C 130:20-21?

I don't believe I said that one could get the blessings from fasting without fasting. I said (or tried to say) that one could keep the law of the fast without abstaining, specifically, from food and/or water. Whereas I understand and accept that fasting commonly refers to abstaining from food, and that we have been asked by our leadership to keep the law of the fast in that way, and therefore strict obedience requires that those who can keep it in that way or else we are not keeping the law of the fast, I believe when one legitimately cannot do so, for medical reasons, that one can still fast in other ways, and I believe our leaders have made that clear too.

More importantly...and I think this needs to be noted...the specific counsel is to fast for 2 meals or 24 hours. But that is not the definition of fasting. Everyone fasts! Every night. Then we break our fast with breakfast. The question of "the law of the fast" is in how long, is it not? The current counsel is once a month for 2 meals or 24 hours. But I don't believe that's defined as the law of the fast scripturally, and it could, I believe, change. I see no reason why, given the counsel from our leaders related to medical reasons, that one could not have the spirit of the fast over a period of, say, 12 hours, were they not able to go 24, and still be blessed accordingly because they did their best (a la the widow's mite thinking, etc).

[Vort]

5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I believe when one legitimately cannot do so [fast], for medical reasons, that one can still fast in other ways, and I believe our leaders have made that clear too.

I confess these teachings have completely escaped me. I do not recall any doctrine that fasting can be accomplished without avoiding food. As I've said earlier in this thread, this seems an obvious semantic point. But if there exist true teachings that one can fast without abstaining from food, I welcome the enlightenment. It will fundamentally revolutionize my very understanding of what it means to fast.

8 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

More importantly...and I think this needs to be noted...the specific counsel is to fast for 2 meals or 24 hours. But that is not the definition of fasting. Everyone fasts! Every night. Then we break our fast with breakfast. The question of "the law of the fast" is in how long, is it not? The current counsel is once a month for 2 meals or 24 hours. But I don't believe that's defined as the law of the fast scripturally, and it could, I believe, change. I see no reason why, given the counsel from our leaders related to medical reasons, that one could not have the spirit of the fast over a period of, say, 12 hours, were they not able to go 24, and still be blessed accordingly because they did their best (a la the widow's mite thinking, etc).

Indeed this seems a reasonable possibility. We fast as we can. But that we do not know how long we must fast for it to "count" as a "real" fast doesn't mean that it actually does not matter how long. Perhaps it matters a great deal. I don't know. I have no authority to pronounce doctrine on such matters.

What I do know is that the scriptures teach that fasting brings spiritual strength, and that various prophets gave themselves to much fasting and prayer, with mighty and even spectacular results. So if one can fulfill the law of the fast without actually fasting, I want to know. If one can with a sincere heart avoid food for, say, 30 minutes, and still obtain exactly the same spiritual power as another who fasts for 24 hours, I want to understand this. Because under such conditions, it seems like "fasting" is not fasting at all, but rather ticking a checkbox to fulfill the requirements list for receiving blessings. That idea rings very hollow to me, so I disbelieve it.

But I could well be wrong, and if I am, I want to understand how and why I am wrong. I believe in a lawful God who uses natural law, aka the realities of existence, to accomplish his ends and who teaches the law of these realities to his children. I do not believe in a lawyer God who carefully checks to see that all the requirements are adequately fulfilled before meting out the promised reward and who teaches his children to study the rules very carefully and e.g. make sure they're following each the seven Rs of Repentance. If I am mistaken in my concept of God's nature, I need to know.

[The Folk Prophet]

12 minutes ago, Vort said:

I confess these teachings have completely escaped me. I do not recall any doctrine that fasting can be accomplished without avoiding food.

“… The Lord has instituted the fast on a reasonable and intelligent basis, and none of his works are vain or unwise. His law is perfect in this as in other things. Hence, those who can, are required to comply thereto; it is a duty from which they cannot escape; but let it be remembered that the observance of the Fast Day by abstaining twenty-four hours from food and drink is not an absolute rule, it is no iron-clad law to us, but it is left with the people as a matter of conscience, to exercise wisdom and discretion.” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1939], pp. 243, 244.)

 

Edit: also from the same:

 “Many are subject to weakness, others are delicate in health, and others have nursing babies; of such it should not be required to fast. Neither should parents compel their little children to fast”

Edited July 19, 2023 by The Folk Prophet

[The Folk Prophet]

More from President Joseph F. Smith: “There is such a thing as overdoing. A man may fast and pray till he kills himself; and there isn’t any necessity for it; nor wisdom in it. … The Lord can hear a simple prayer, offered in faith, in half a dozen words, and he will recognize fasting that may not continue more than twenty-four hours, just as readily and as effectually as He will answer a prayer of a thousand words and fasting for a month. … The Lord will accept that which is enough, with a good deal more pleasure and satisfaction than that which is too much and unnecessary” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1912, 133–34).

[Vort]

13 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

“… The Lord has instituted the fast on a reasonable and intelligent basis, and none of his works are vain or unwise. His law is perfect in this as in other things. Hence, those who can, are required to comply thereto; it is a duty from which they cannot escape; but let it be remembered that the observance of the Fast Day by abstaining twenty-four hours from food and drink is not an absolute rule, it is no iron-clad law to us, but it is left with the people as a matter of conscience, to exercise wisdom and discretion.” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1939], pp. 243, 244.)

Edit: also from the same:

 “Many are subject to weakness, others are delicate in health, and others have nursing babies; of such it should not be required to fast. Neither should parents compel their little children to fast”

I am not conscious that I have spoken against this teaching. I don't see where President Smith suggested that one can fulfill the law of the fast without fasting.

5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

More from President Joseph F. Smith: “There is such a thing as overdoing. A man may fast and pray till he kills himself; and there isn’t any necessity for it; nor wisdom in it. … The Lord can hear a simple prayer, offered in faith, in half a dozen words, and he will recognize fasting that may not continue more than twenty-four hours, just as readily and as effectually as He will answer a prayer of a thousand words and fasting for a month. … The Lord will accept that which is enough, with a good deal more pleasure and satisfaction than that which is too much and unnecessary” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1912, 133–34).

Looks familiar.

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

I am not conscious that I have spoken against this teaching. I don't see where President Smith suggested that one can fulfill the law of the fast without fasting.

I thought we'd established that I wasn't saying one can fulfill the law of the fast without fasting. (Though I do understand that you are narrowing fasting to mean food and drink and nothing else.)

Clearly we are interpreting things differently. It's been taught many times and places (I didn't share a lot of them because they aren't "authoritative" quotes from the prophet or the like) that we should adjust our fast according to what we can do and be wise in the matter, and that we can obtain the blessings of fasting in doing so. The fact that the fasting from food and drink for 24 hours is "no iron-clad law" unto us and that we need "to exercise wisdom and discretion" sounds pretty much like exactly what I've trying to say. Either you are reading it differently, thinking I mean something different than I do, or just don't agree.  C'est la etc.

I will grant that his quote doesn't explicitly specify that one can fast from something other than food and drink...though that feels like a perfectly appropriate understanding of "no iron-clad law" and "wisdom and discretion" to me.

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

Looks familiar.

Ah, man, you don't expect me to read ALL the posts do you?

[Vort]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I thought we'd established that I wasn't saying one can fulfill the law of the fast without fasting. (Though I do understand that you are narrowing fasting to mean food and drink and nothing else.)

[...]

I will grant that his quote doesn't explicitly specify that one can fast from something other than food and drink...though that feels like a perfectly appropriate understanding of "no iron-clad law" and "wisdom and discretion" to me.

It strikes me as cynical to proclaim that one can fast by making some sacrifice other than not eating. "I didn't watch TV for a day, so I fasted." That violates the plain meaning of words. To be clear, I'm not suggesting that you personally are being cynical. I trust your sincerity. But I do believe that the reasoning of a fast not being a fast from food (as if there's any other kind of fast) is indeed deeply cynical. It's like following the law of chastity by, I don't know, cleaning the kitchen.

[LDSGator]

22 minutes ago, Vort said:

It strikes me as cynical to proclaim that one can fast by making some sacrifice other than not eating. "I didn't watch TV for a day, so I fasted." That violates the plain meaning of words. To be clear, I'm not suggesting that you personally are being cynical. I trust your sincerity. But I do believe that the reasoning of a fast not being a fast from food (as if there's any other kind of fast) is indeed deeply cynical. It's like following the law of chastity by, I don't know, cleaning the kitchen.

Could I pay tithing by donating land to the church? Or if I’m a farmer can I donate animals to be slaughtered for the poor? Asking out of ignorance. 

Edited July 20, 2023 by LDSGator

[Vort]

12 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Could I pay tithing by donating land to the church? Or if I’m a farmer can I donate animals to be slaughtered for the poor? Asking out of ignorance. 

Yes, paying tithing "in kind" used to be common. Not sure how it works in a modern, money-based society, but I'm confident you could do that. I know people who pay tithing in stock (financial, not livestock) transfers.

[The Folk Prophet]

11 hours ago, Vort said:

It strikes me as cynical to proclaim that one can fast by making some sacrifice other than not eating. "I didn't watch TV for a day, so I fasted." That violates the plain meaning of words. To be clear, I'm not suggesting that you personally are being cynical. I trust your sincerity. But I do believe that the reasoning of a fast not being a fast from food (as if there's any other kind of fast) is indeed deeply cynical. It's like following the law of chastity by, I don't know, cleaning the kitchen.

I think the cynical response is the suggestion that I'm saying the lackadaisical turning off of the TV on Sunday equates to a fast.

It feels like this debate has, perhaps, run it's course and continuing doesn't have a ton of value. So I'll back out now.

Thanks for the back and forth on it.

[estradling75]

The question has been raised.. How can we gain the Blessing of Obeying the Law of the Fast without Obeying the Law of the Fast, and I think we are having a Can't see the Forest because of the Trees moment.

 

The heavenly laws of Fasting are not some special snowflake laws that behave differently from all the other laws in giving blessings so we can expand our question to how do we get any blessing from heavenly laws that are broken?

 

The answer to that question is so profound that it is the foundation of our religion. Christ and his atonement. Christ fulfilled all the Laws of Heaven and through his Atonement (Which we do not really understand)) can extend all the blessings of obedience to us.  The Law of the Fast is just as much covered by the Atonement of Christ as any other Law we might fail to live up to.

 

Invoking the atonement to cover us has some pretty well understood steps.  First is Faith in Jesus Christ.  If we do not believe and accept that, then our works are dead works and profit us nothing.  Second is repentance.  Christ has given us commands and laws. We are expected to continually repent and try to live those laws.  We will fail and that is expected, but as long as we keep trying, Christ will keep the blessings flowing.

 

So how does this break down in practice?  You have members that are going through the motions.  They do it because that is what we do.  They may be technically fulfilling the Law but for whatever reason their Faith is not active.  So fasting is without effect for them. Then you have the members that are doing the Fast technically and with Faith, the Lord has Mercy on them in their shortcomings, the atonement works and these people get the blessings.  Then you have the members legitimately can't meet the technicalities of a fast, but they really want to, so they take it to the Lord. They do what they can, maybe even offer up a substitute to help show their heart and mind,  the Lord has Mercy on them in their shortcomings, the atonement works and these people get the blessings.

 

The catch with that last one is that we as a people can't really tell who is sincerely trying and those whose Faith, if it exists, is weaker than their hunger so they make up an excuse or milk everything they can out of otherwise good reason.  They are neither using faith or repentance, so they get no blessings.. And yes we absolutely need to be careful about encouraging that

[Carborendum]

I've taken some time to ponder and pray.  I've considered what alternatives there are to fasting that may bring about similar blessings as fasting.

Lately, I've been reading a lot about the temple.  And I realized that whatever we are required to do, there is a substitute should we fail.  But is that all?

@estradling75 pointed to the Atonement as a substitute for perfect obedience on our part.  And reading about the temple made me understand that  even when we fail to make certain covenants, a substitute is accepted.  However, both of these examples show that it is never 100%.  There is always something that is lost.

Being obedient ourselves will always be a better choice than having to depend on forgiveness (via the Atonement).  Making covenants in mortality will always have an advantage over those for whom vicarious works are performed.  If we sin, but through the Atonement are forgiven, it is a miracle.  But it would still have been better had we never sinned.

When we make and keep covenants in this life, we will have an advantage over those who do not.  By making covenants, we have put ourselves in the position to then help others.  Only through this can we experience the joy of bringing souls (even many souls) to the Lord.  Those who had temple work done for them may truly be forgiven and receive Eternal Life.  But they will never experience the joy of having been the tool in the Lord's hands to bring souls to Him while on earth.

Similarly, fasting brings blessings.  And while there may be substitutes (such as the "fasting" of other things a-la Lent) no substitute is as good as the real thing.  That is the Eternal nature of things.

[marge]

I don't know the LDS law of fasting or blessings associated with it.  But I did grow up with fasting as a big part of my religion.  I still fast every Friday and sometimes Wednesday as well.  We don't have any money offerings associated with it though.

 

[Carborendum]

6 hours ago, marge said:

I don't know the LDS law of fasting or blessings associated with it.  But I did grow up with fasting as a big part of my religion.  I still fast every Friday and sometimes Wednesday as well.  We don't have any money offerings associated with it though.

For the most part the "law of the fast" is similar to what I've heard from people of other Christian faiths. But there are tweaks from denomination to denomination.  Here are some differences.

• We fast both food and water.  Many only fast food.  Some only fast specific foods.  For us it is a complete fast of all food and drink.  Although medical reasons may limit this.
• It is supposed to be for a complete 24 hrs, or as reasonably close to that as conditions may dictate.  I doubt anyone has a timer going and say that they still have to wait 12 more seconds before taking the first bite.  It is from finishing dinner on Saturday to beginning of dinner on Sunday (whatever times they may be, but relatively close to 24 hrs).
• Prior to the settlement of Utah, there were special instances where a fast was called for.  And we invited all those who would participate to do so. 
• But during the settlement of Utah, we had droves of people who had given all their worldly goods to make the trek across the country.  And they came to Utah, starving.  Brigham Young then instituted Fast Sunday wherein we would have a fast and donate the food that would have been eaten to those who did not have anything.
• Even today, our fast offerings go to fund the Bishop's Storehouse which is reserved for the poor.  All other fasts do not have the donation associated with it.  But I'm sure there are some who give a fast offering for individual fasts as well.

[marge]

8 hours ago, Carborendum said:

For the most part the "law of the fast" is similar to what I've heard from people of other Christian faiths. But there are tweaks from denomination to denomination.  Here are some differences.

• We fast both food and water.  Many only fast food.  Some only fast specific foods.  For us it is a complete fast of all food and drink.  Although medical reasons may limit this.
• It is supposed to be for a complete 24 hrs, or as reasonably close to that as conditions may dictate.  I doubt anyone has a timer going and say that they still have to wait 12 more seconds before taking the first bite.  It is from finishing dinner on Saturday to beginning of dinner on Sunday (whatever times they may be, but relatively close to 24 hrs).
• Prior to the settlement of Utah, there were special instances where a fast was called for.  And we invited all those who would participate to do so. 
• But during the settlement of Utah, we had droves of people who had given all their worldly goods to make the trek across the country.  And they came to Utah, starving.  Brigham Young then instituted Fast Sunday wherein we would have a fast and donate the food that would have been eaten to those who did not have anything.
• Even today, our fast offerings go to fund the Bishop's Storehouse which is reserved for the poor.  All other fasts do not have the donation associated with it.  But I'm sure there are some who give a fast offering for individual fasts as well.

Interesting!  24 hours with no water is so hard core.

Technically our fasts are you can have two snacks that put together would not make a complete meal. No meat, and its only mandatory on Ash Wednesday and Fridays during lent.  But many people do Wednesday and Friday every week and go without all food, but still drink water (I do water on Fridays, not that great at Wednesdays yet!).  We do it out of reverence for Jesus and offer up our 'suffering' it causes to God to come closer to him and work on the virtue of fasting.

I guess our version of the bishops storehouse is St Vincent De Paul, anyone can go and get food or clothes, or they will deliver it to you if you can't get there, pay utility bills, fuel cards, help with teaching budgeting, housing applications that sort of thing. I didn't know the Bishops storehouse was for everyone, that's awesome, I got the impression it was just for struggling LDS and you had to sit an interview with the bishop first?