Goodness, Gracious, Great Ball(ard)s of Fire!!!!

[Just_A_Guy]

(Apologies in advance for the bad thread title.  It's late, and it's been a humdinger of a day at work, and my filter is kind of broken at the moment . . .)

Back in July, I wrote:

Quote

I wish well for Ballard, his organization, and his movie.  It's desperately important that we have a cultural renaissance regarding the importance of childhood innocence.  There are theories being bandied about, and becoming increasingly mainstream, that tend to justify the exploitation of children and erode the institutions that have traditionally stood between children and the adults who wish to sexualize them.  Those theories need to be exposed for what they are, and Ballard is one of the leaders of the charge on that issue--which I think is why he generates a lot of the pushback that he gets (though certainly not all--he does strike me as a bit of a poser; and I have methodological issues with some of the historical theories he has published).  I do worry, though, that he sort of sucks all the air out of the room in any discussions regarding the allocation of anti-trafficking resources.  Even if Ballard were 100% successful and effective against the specific subsets of trafficking he targets--we would still have a major child trafficking problem in this country.  

Since then . . . 

Vice - Mormon Church Denounces Tim Ballard’s “Morally Unacceptable” Activities

Deseret News - Tim Ballard Considers Senate Run Amid Renewed Controversy

Vice - Tim Ballard's Departure from Operation Underground Railroad Followed Sexual Misconduct Investigation

Thoughts:

• I hope these are untrue.
• Yeah, I know, it's Vice.
• Even Vice isn't likely to be making this up out of whole cloth.  
• President Ballard, at least, seems fairly convinced that Tim has to some degree been a bad boy lately.  

 

[The Folk Prophet]

I disbelieve it.

[prisonchaplain]

3 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

• President Ballard, at least, seems fairly convinced that Tim has to some degree been a bad boy lately.  

The impression I got from reporting on the reporting (bias upon bias, I know) was that President Ballard, and the Church, were mostly displeased with Tim's use of the President's name/reputation/authority, as well as that of the Church, for apparent promotion of himself and his organizations. 

[LDSGator]

9 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I disbelieve it.

What do you disbelieve?  Did the church not release a statement or take down anything?

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, LDSGator said:

What do you disbelieve? 

It.

Specifically that Tim Ballard did what he's being accused of.

14 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Did the church not release a statement or take down anything?

Apparently a statement was released. Tim Ballard says he didn't believe it was from the church (apparently it was), because he had spoken to his Stake President and Bishop and neither of them knew anything about it. He's shocked that the church would release a public condemnation of one of its members without even talking to that member's Bishop or Stake President first. Which does, indeed, sound wrong to me too. But, you know....it happens. The church public relations department releasing a condemnatory statement because of news articles containing accusations isn't proof of wrong doing though.

I disbelieve the accusations. We've had all these anti responses to The Sound of Freedom by the leftist news, and then when there are rumors of Tim Ballard running for the Senate to replace Mitt Romney accusations conveniently appear.....in Vice?

Convenient.

Things may escalate. Things may come out that prove it one way or the other. Tim Ballard may secretly be a sexual predator and evil. But until those proofs come out, I'm inclined to disbelieve it.

Assuming he is innocent, I hope the church's response doesn't have the effect of destroying the man and his commitment to the church. He has stated in response that he is faithful and committed. I hope that remains true. Having the church one loves publicly smear them unjustly could be a pretty huge trial of faith. But it happens. The church is made of mortal men who make mortal men mistakes.

[LDSGator]

9 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I disbelieve the accusations.

Ahh, okay. Thanks. 

[zil2]

FWIW (direct quote from Church statement):

Quote

Once it became clear Tim Ballard had betrayed their friendship, through the unauthorized use of President Ballard’s name for Tim Ballard’s personal advantage and activity regarded as morally unacceptable, President Ballard withdrew his association.

"and activity regarded as morally unacceptable" could be anything - including unauthorized use of names for personal promotion, use of a "psychic" (if he did that, any sane person will think the guy's nuts), the accused sexual harassment (if it was done), or any number of other behaviors whether done as part of his work or not.

[LDSGator]

45 minutes ago, zil2 said:

FWIW (direct quote from Church statement):

"and activity regarded as morally unacceptable" could be anything - including unauthorized use of names for personal promotion, use of a "psychic" (if he did that, any sane person will think the guy's nuts), the accused sexual harassment (if it was done), or any number of other behaviors whether done as part of his work or not.

So who is wrong here? Did Tim Ballard do anything wrong or is the church wrong? Did the church release an official statement?

[The Folk Prophet]

16 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

So who is wrong here? Did Tim Ballard do anything wrong or is the church wrong? Did the church release an official statement?

Well, do you believe Tim Ballard or Vice?

Choose.

[zil2]

13 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

So who is wrong here? Did Tim Ballard do anything wrong or is the church wrong? Did the church release an official statement?

Heaven knows who's wrong.  The first article @Just_A_Guy linked includes what they are saying is the full text of an official statement from the Church - I have not gone to independently verify that - presumably it would be on the Newsroom site...

Tim Ballard is accused of sexual harassment.  The articles say he was also using a psychic who claimed to be channeling Nephi (yes, that Nephi) to guide Ballard where to go to rescue children.  The Church statement says he never had permission to use President Ballard's name, nor the Church's (and yet he has done so - there seems no doubt about this part).  Seems like there was another accusation, but I've forgotten it already.

[LDSGator]

27 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Well, do you believe Tim Ballard or Vice?

Choose.

Well, you asked. 

I believe neither at this time-but I highly doubt Vice just made something up. Why hasn’t Ballard sued them for slander?
 

To me it’s validating because it proves something I always thought. It’s fake news when it says something we disagree with, and it’s only real if it confirms my pre existing beliefs. So I do feel like I was absolutely right. Again. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by LDSGator

[Carborendum]

14 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

• I hope these are untrue.

As do we all. But I tend to believe it.

14 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

• Yeah, I know, it's Vice.

Yeah.  But the source isn't (usually) a test of whether it is true or not.  Just a test of framing/characterization.  And the way it was written, the vast majority of the Vice articles was simply reporting facts.

14 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

• Even Vice isn't likely to be making this up out of whole cloth.  

No, but the thing I noticed as I was reading was...

... Hmmm.  ok... ok...

Hm... I'll have to check that. 

Wait, why did you even bring that up?  Some facts for us to consider (probably true) then a commentary that was way off the mark.

[NeuroTypical]

Here's the full statement:  https://www.deseret.com/2023/9/15/23875331/tim-ballard-senate-church-of-jesus-christ

Quote

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints released a statement in response to the report, first published by Vice. The full statement from the church reads:

President Ballard and Tim Ballard (no relation) established a friendship a number of years ago. That friendship was built on a shared interest in looking after God’s children wherever they are and without regard to their circumstance. However, that relationship is in the past. For many months, President Ballard has had no contact with the founder of Operation Underground Railroad (OUR). The nature of that relationship was always in support of vulnerable children being abused, trafficked, and otherwise neglected. Once it became clear Tim Ballard had betrayed their friendship, through the unauthorized use of President Ballard’s name for Tim Ballard’s personal advantage and activity regarded as morally unacceptable, President Ballard withdrew his association. President Ballard never authorized his name, or the name of the Church, to be used for Tim’s personal or financial interests.

In addition, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints never endorsed, supported or represented OUR, Tim Ballard or any projects associated with them.

President Ballard loves children, all over the world. It has been his mission and life’s work to look after them, care for them, and point them to their Savior.

 

 

 

[The Folk Prophet]

54 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

but I highly doubt Vice just made something up.

Vice doesn't have to "make something up". They only have to repeat accusations without evidence. Have you not been around for the advents of the "Me Too" movement and the way things work now?

Here's the way it works for me. When something is reported by the news...I consider it suspect.

55 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Why hasn’t Ballard sued them for slander?

Who's to say he won't?

That being said, suing for slander is a very difficult road. You have to prove intentional deception.

57 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

To me it’s validating because it proves something I always thought. It’s fake news when it says something we disagree with, and it’s only real if it confirms my pre existing beliefs. So I do feel like I was absolutely right. Again

You thought Tim Ballard was a sex pervert prior to this?

[The Folk Prophet]

37 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

But I tend to believe it.

Out of curiosity...why?

I tend to not simply because of the politics. The lefty news has been hardcore after Tim Ballard, Jim Caveziel, and Angel Studios, ever since Sound of Freedom made some waves. And then this. That alone makes it suspect to me.

[LDSGator]

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You thought Tim Ballard was a sex pervert prior to this?

Lol. No, I have no opinion of the man at all. I’ve thought of him as often as he thinks of me. 
 

It’s pretty clear what I thought. I thought before that people only believe the news is “true” if it confirms what they already believe. If it goes against their moral/religious/political views then they automatically think it’s “fake news” or disbelieve it. 

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, LDSGator said:

Lol. No, I have no opinion of the man at all. I’ve thought of him as often as he thinks of me. 
 

It’s pretty clear what I thought. I thought before that people only believe the news is “true” if it confirms what they already believe. If it goes against their moral/religious/political views then they automatically think it’s “fake news” or disbelieve it. 

Haha. I see.

Yeah, I think you're usually right.

In this case I don't believe what's being reported because of my bias against the news rather than my bias towards anything, however.

[LDSGator]

My sympathies are with the church though. I fear Tim Ballard tried to take advantage of the genuinely sweet nature of the LDS apostles and leadership, who I will defend 100%. I think they sometimes get conned by jerks and sleazeballs looking for political or social gains. Like I’ve always said, LDS (including the leaders) can be too nice and trusting 😞 

[LDSGator]

7 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Haha. I see.

Yeah, I think you're usually right.

In this case I don't believe what's being reported because of my bias against the news rather than my bias towards anything, however.

Understand. 

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, LDSGator said:

My sympathies are with the church though. I fear Tim Ballard tried to take advantage of the genuinely sweet nature of the LDS apostles and leadership, who I will defend 100%. I think they sometimes get conned by jerks and sleazeballs looking for political or social gains. Like I’ve always said, LDS (including the leaders) can be too nice and trusting 😞 

Your strange blend of cynicism and faith is charming.

[LDSGator]

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Your strange blend of cynicism and faith is charming.

Thanks. I notice it too, but it is how I really feel. 

[prisonchaplain]

6 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Assuming he is innocent, I hope the church's response doesn't have the effect of destroying the man and his commitment to the church. He has stated in response that he is faithful and committed. I hope that remains true. Having the church one loves publicly smear them unjustly could be a pretty huge trial of faith. But it happens. The church is made of mortal men who make mortal men mistakes.

The impression I had from the Vice article was that President Ballard and the Church were upset that he had used them to promote himself and his organization. There did not seem to be any connection (as far as the Church or President Ballard's condemnation) to allegations of Tim's sexual improprieties. 

[Carborendum]

3 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Out of curiosity...why?

I tend to not simply because of the politics. The lefty news has been hardcore after Tim Ballard, Jim Caveziel, and Angel Studios, ever since Sound of Freedom made some waves. And then this. That alone makes it suspect to me.

At this point, it isn't about logic.  I "tend" to believe it, meaning that I just get a sense of it leaning toward the side of him being not all he says he is.

Does that mean it's as bad as the links all seem to point to?  Who knows?  Maybe.  Maybe not.

[JohnsonJones]

Morally unacceptable could be any range of things.  It does not necessarily even have to be anything that would damage church membership or break any church rules.  It could be that he was name dropping in order to get money for a vacation, or to spend on advertising or any number of other areas.

The article isn't clear on why they had a separation of will there.  I'm not really into Utah Politics right now, but it could be that he was using the apostles name as a way to try to show that the Church endorsed him for a political candidate.

I have no idea.  As for other things, if there were crimes committed or if he is innocent, hopefully justice is done and he is either proven innocent or guilty depending on whether he really is guilty or innocent. 

[mirkwood]

7 hours ago, zil2 said:

 presumably it would be on the Newsroom site...

 

Which is what makes me suspicious...well that and it is Vice.  

 

Even @NeuroTypical's link to the Deseret News does not have a direct connection to the Newsroom site which I find very strange.