A possible new approach?

[askandanswer]

At best, I only have a mild curiosity about the debates regarding the arrival point of Lehi and his shipmates in the Americas, and the locations of Nephite and Lamanite lands. From the little I know, it appears that people try to work out these things by reference to geographical features and clues and hints in the Book of Mormon.

It seems to me that another approach to working out these things could be to study the promises made in the Book of Mormon regarding the latter-day circumstances of the descendants of the people of the Book of Mormon, and then see in what areas or lands those promises are being most strongly or clearly fulfilled. Perhaps it might be the case that wherever, and on whomever, those promises are being most strongly fulfilled are the descendants of those to whom the promises were first made, and then it becomes a less complicated matter of tracing back the origins, or places of earliest habitation, of those people.

How useful might this approach be and how likely is it that it might yield some valid clues about Lehi’s point of arrival and the locations where his descendants lived?

[Vort]

I don't think either method will deliver the desired result. But given the choice, it seems to me that finding a geography that fits the descriptions well as given in the Book of Mormon would be a better guide to finding the authentic areas than trying to divine which blessings are being best fulfilled as per prophecy by which people in which area.

[laronius]

I personally believe that the Nephites and Lamanites spread so much that their descendants can probably be found among most native tribes. But it does appear that acceptance of the gospel is more prevalent among central and south American native members than North American. Does that mean anything? Idk. 

[Traveler]

The Book of Mormon prophesies that eventually we will know more about the people of the Book of Mormon and the records that were kept.  Obviously, this prophesy has not been fulfilled – yet.  One thing I have learned from my scientific background – guessing and speculations are lots of fun but seldom, if ever, correct.  When someone finds an ancient road sign that says, “Entering Zarahemla population 800,607” – we will know where the land of the Book of Mormon was.

 

The Traveler

[mikbone]

I think that the idea that man originated in Africa and then eventually entered into  the Americas by crossing the bering strait land bridge has been debunked.

We originally thought the the oceans were barriers.  But there are many thinkers that now see the oceans as highways.

We have records of the Jaredites, Nephites, and Mulekites voyaging across the oceans from the old world.

We also know that the Vikings made it here before Columbus.

The islands of the seas were all populated.  Wonder how that happened…  Easter Island and the Hawaiian Islands took lots of effort and skill to navigate.

My bet is that there were MANY more peoples that navigated to the Americas that we have no records of.

We are likely naïve to think that all native Americans descended from Lamanites. 

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by mikbone

[Vort]

51 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I think that the idea that man originated in Africa and then eventually entered into  the Americas by crossing the bering strait land bridge has been debunked.

Really? I had not heard that. AFAIK, that's still our very best model, not only for human evolutionary origins but for the populating of the Americas.

[mikbone]

37 minutes ago, Vort said:

Really? I had not heard that. AFAIK, that's still our very best model, not only for human evolutionary origins but for the populating of the Americas.

https://www.history.com/news/new-study-refutes-theory-of-how-humans-populated-north-america

I think the ‘science’ that proves our origin is pretty weak.

Edited October 4, 2023 by mikbone

[Vort]

21 minutes ago, mikbone said:

https://www.history.com/news/new-study-refutes-theory-of-how-humans-populated-north-america

I think the ‘science’ that proves our origin is pretty weak.

Very interesting, but this is certainly not proof or even strong evidence. Looks like someone's PhD dissertation idea. The land bridge idea is very compelling, but I'm certainly willing to entertain deep-sea routes. I agree with you that we severely underestimate the maritime skills of the ancients. It's like we assume that the Middle Egyptian model of sailing was the state of the art in the ancient world. Even at the time, that was not the case.

[JohnsonJones]

5 hours ago, askandanswer said:

At best, I only have a mild curiosity about the debates regarding the arrival point of Lehi and his shipmates in the Americas, and the locations of Nephite and Lamanite lands. From the little I know, it appears that people try to work out these things by reference to geographical features and clues and hints in the Book of Mormon.

It seems to me that another approach to working out these things could be to study the promises made in the Book of Mormon regarding the latter-day circumstances of the descendants of the people of the Book of Mormon, and then see in what areas or lands those promises are being most strongly or clearly fulfilled. Perhaps it might be the case that wherever, and on whomever, those promises are being most strongly fulfilled are the descendants of those to whom the promises were first made, and then it becomes a less complicated matter of tracing back the origins, or places of earliest habitation, of those people.

How useful might this approach be and how likely is it that it might yield some valid clues about Lehi’s point of arrival and the locations where his descendants lived?

 

It's the Utes and Paiutes!

Navajo also?

It matches even!  Salt Lake City area would be where the thin neck of land would be!  Between the Mountains and the Sea at least...though not two seas.  You could walk it in a day (even a normal person as long as they aren't in bad health).

The gospel has definitely been spread among those tribes...probably multiple times.  The impact of the Church on their lives probably has impacted them far more than any other Native Americans.

I think they have cities in the rocks and high places that were used as defensive fortifications thousands of years ago.  We have the Manti Temple there that was supposedly dedicated previously to be a Temple.  Could it be that the Nephites lived North of the Salt Lake area up to where the Provo Area is today with the Lamanites south of that and the Land of Nephi across the Salt Lake?

Is that the type of idea you are looking at??????

[mikbone]

Amazing what these hunter gatherers did @ Göbeklitepe.

Or perhaps they were more than hunter gathers… 

You think these guys built the above monument between Mammoth hunts?

Or maybe the artist interpretation is incorrect?

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by mikbone

[Traveler]

12 hours ago, mikbone said:

 

 

Or maybe the artist interpretation is incorrect?

 

My father was an artist deeply rooted in realism.  Lots of landscapes and portraits.  What I learned growing up in the home of an artist is that interpretation art is fantasy.   This was strongly confirmed visiting the holy land.  Religious and historical art by nature is mostly fantasy.  Likewise, so is much of science art.  This does not mean that art should not be appreciated – I love the works of Arnold Friberg (including the Book of Mormon artwork).

Jesus taught a great deal with parables.  This does not mean that we should start looking for archeological evidence to prove his parables.   The Book of Mormon was never written for the purpose of determining how the American continent was populated by humans.   I believe it was written so that the Latter-day Saints can better understand the folly of corrupt politics altering the inspired founding of our great government (specifically the US government).

Because of the Book of Mormon was about a real people – there will be, of necessity, evidence that survives – that is when we locate where this civilization existed.  We know from scripture that there have been a number of inspired and advanced civilizations in their time (Enoch and Salem among them – besides the Nephites).   It is interesting to me that not even a single artifact has ever been discovered that we can definitely say this is proof such civilizations existed.   

I do not know if we can clearly demonstrate that Adam and Eve were the first humans on earth with a written language that worshiped G-d for the purpose of salvation.  There is an awful lot of our earth’s past of which it appears we know next to nothing about.

 

The Traveler

[mikbone]

Here is my big issue with the hunter gathers crossing the bering strait.

The land bridge became a thing because the water levels dropped significantly.  Because, there were glaciers miles thick covering the top half-half of the northern hemisphere.  During the ice age, I assume that the hunter gathers would follow the birds and animals to the more temperate climates near the equator. Very few animals survive on frozen tundra or glaciers.  No animals that hunter gathers would be interested in following.  I dont see anyone trekking across the Northern Eurasia and then across the bering straight glacier bridge.  And then surviving the trek down Canada into the lower United States.  

You may notice the lack of ice on Russia and Alaska.  We don't have any records of glaciation in Russia because they have not shared the data with us.  Interesting how conviently during the ice age no rain or ice ever fell on Alaska or Russia.  But everything else is ice miles thick.  

 

 

"Was all of Alaska covered by glaciers during the Pleistocene Ice Age?

No--most of interior Alaska, south of the Brooks Range and north of the Alaska Range, was a non-glaciated grassland refuge habitat for a number of plant and animal species during the maximum Pleistocene glaciation. This ice-free corridor also provided one route for humans to move into North America."

https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/was-all-alaska-covered-glaciers-during-pleistocene-ice-age#:~:text=Frequently Asked Questions-,Was all of Alaska covered by glaciers during the Pleistocene,during the maximum Pleistocene glaciation.

 

I don't buy it.  

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by mikbone

[mikbone]

https://www.nps.gov/whsa/learn/nature/fossilized-footprints.htm#:~:text=Human Footprints were found within,were ancient grass seeds (

https://www.history.com/news/human-migration-americas-beringia

https://www.princeton.edu/news/2023/01/06/princeton-research-offers-unexpected-insights-emergence-bering-land-bridge-and#:~:text=A new study shows that,later during the last ice

The ‘science’ is all over the place.

 

It’s amazing how science is usually used to bolster our firmly held misconceptions.

[LDSGator]

5 minutes ago, mikbone said:

It’s amazing how science is usually used to bolster our firmly held misconceptions.

We love science when it agrees with us and scream it from the rooftops. When we disagree with science we downplay/ignore it/whine and cry about it being fake. 
 

The reality is that science is a harsh mistress who doesn’t care if you want to spend the holidays with your wife and kids. 

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, LDSGator said:

We love science when it agrees with us and scream it from the rooftops. When we disagree with science we downplay/ignore it/whine and cry about it being fake. 
 

The reality is that science is a harsh mistress who doesn’t care if you want to spend the holidays with your wife and kids. 

A true scientist never (well very seldom) has made up their mind and is always open (well usually) to new facts and ideas.  It is the religious community (well with extremely rare exception) that quickly draws conclusions based on limited data and assumes that there is nothing new to learn.

I tend to think that there is some religion and science in all of us – but that we tend towards the extremes of one or the other.  It is quite difficult to navigate truth and claim to be both religious and scientific.  To attempt to do so is more likely to upset the extreme of both science and religion.

 

The Traveler

Edited October 5, 2023 by Traveler

[mikbone]

8 minutes ago, Traveler said:

A true scientist never (well very seldom) has made up their mind and is always open (well usually) to new facts and ideas. 

Bias is such a huge problem in all of science that we have gone to great lengths to attempt to remove bias from scientific studies.

Double blinded studies were designed for a good reason.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK546641/

Edited October 5, 2023 by mikbone

[Traveler]

3 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Bias is such a huge problem in all of science that we have gone to great lengths to attempt to remove bias from scientific studies.

Double blinded studies were designed for a good reason.

And now we have AI available to confuse and worry everybody.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Found this article -- it appears that it is possible that humans were in the Americas much sooner than the standard theories:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/footprints-found-ancient-lake-new-mexico-challenges-old-belief-first-humans-americas

 

The Traveler

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

it is more important to study the book and it's teachings, and then to follow them. It is possible to get sidelined in our efforts to figure out the exact locations. Besides, we know that the entirety of the Book of Mormon took place on Vancouver Island.

[mikbone]

And the Short nosed Bear and Dire wolf might have made the Bering Strait land bridge a bit hazardous.

[LDSGator]

4 minutes ago, mikbone said:

And the Short nosed Bear and Dire wolf might have made the Bering Strait land bridge a bit hazardous.

I’m no expert, but if prehistoric people took down Mammoths I’m sure they could also take down these things. 

[askandanswer]

The unaided individual will almost always fall before the organised group.

[mordorbund]

3 hours ago, mikbone said:

And the Short nosed Bear and Dire wolf might have made the Bering Strait land bridge a bit hazardous.

“Dude did you see that thing?!?!”

”Yeah, it was … I don’t know what!”

”<squealing in shock>”

”I mean…. It was…… did you see…..”

”You talking about that thing with the short nose?”

<group stare >
”<still squealing in shock>”