Israel declares war

[Traveler]

Something else that I would add to this thread to understand the rhetoric that we are hearing and who is saying what - indicating to which side of the war they have leanings.  One of the things I learned during my military training and again over and over in life is that those fighting on the front lines are the best experts in requesting what is needed most to win the conflict at the front lines.

The reason I bring this up is because Israel is saying that they need to continue their aggressive actions to overtake Hamas.  What Hamas says that what they need most, at this time, is a pause or period of cease fire.  Those calling for the continued aggressive actions of Isarel are the supporters of Isarel and their fighters in the conflict.  Those calling for a pause of cease fire are supporters of Hamas and their fighters in the conflict.

I believe that the scriptures prophesy that at the end of times the entire world – nations of the world - will all turn against Israel and that they would stand alone in conflict with the world.  In previous conflicts, I did not understand how it was that all the nations of the world would end up supporting the enemies of Israel.   

 

The Traveler

[mikbone]

Of note is the scripture in the bottom right of the picture, or the far left side of the desk.

2 Ne 29: 5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.

 

Also, notice that the chapter ends with these words.

And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever.

Edited November 11, 2023 by mikbone

[Just_A_Guy]

19 hours ago, mikbone said:

Of note is the scripture in the bottom right of the picture, or the far left side of the desk.

2 Ne 29: 5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.

 

Also, notice that the chapter ends with these words.

And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever.

“Tell us you support Israel without dealing with the political fallout of telling us you support Israel.”

Well-played, President.  Very well-played, indeed.

[laronius]

3 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

“Tell us you support Israel without dealing with the political fallout of telling us you support Israel.”

Well-played, President.  Very well-played, indeed.

I don't think he has to be subtle about it. Our doctrine is very clear that those lands were given to Israel by God. It doesn't matter who else may have resided there in the past, that's Israel's land. God says so. Though I guess it might not be taken right if he were to express support for any type of conflict, even if it is justified.

But it is interesting to see him focusing on these scriptures. Makes you wonder what his prophetic eye sees in these events as it pertains to the future. 

[Just_A_Guy]

Indeed.  And at a time when we are still dickering over getting the Dubai temple built, and looking towards keeping good relations with the Arab partners of the BYU Jerusalem center, it’s conceivable that the Lord doesn’t feel the costs are worth the benefits for the Church to come out as stridently pro-Israel.

[Carborendum]

16 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

...at a time when we are still dickering over getting the Dubai temple built...

I'd reckon that the Dubai Temple will cost more than the Hong Kong temple.  It may be that we're working out the financing/accounting end more than the politics of the temple.

16 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

“Tell us you support Israel without dealing with the political fallout of telling us you support Israel.”

I don't know if that's intentional.  I think it's just a natural result.  The BoM makes it clear that we (the LDS Church) are the House of Israel.  We are the new Covenant people.  There are many scriptures in the Bible and BoM that would indicate that the prophecies and sentiments are directed at us instead of modern Jewry.

In other words, it's just a random scripture.  I have a hard time reading too much into it.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Carborendum

[JohnsonJones]

20 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I'd reckon that the Dubai Temple will cost more than the Hong Kong temple.  It may be that we're working out the financing/accounting end more than the politics of the temple.

I don't know if that's intentional.  I think it's just a natural result.  The BoM makes it clear that we (the LDS Church) are the House of Israel.  We are the new Covenant people.  There are many scriptures in the Bible and BoM that would indicate that the prophecies and sentiments are directed at us instead of modern Jewry.

In other words, it's just a random scripture.  I have a hard time reading too much into it.

The Context of that particular scripture seems to make it clear he is talking about the Hebrews, and in particular those of the Tribe of Judah which have preserved the Bible and brought it down through History so that others can have the books of the Bible. 

I think in our modern time we can see the changing minds of those from support of Israel to being against Israel, even in our own nation.  Those who used to whole heartedly support freedom and Israel just 20-40 years ago are now refusing it aid and scheming exuses to prevent aid to preserve freedom from Tyranny in Europe and to support the Jews in Israel which have been attacked by a people that have sworn to wipe out all Jews, though now focusing on those from the "River to the Sea" in a new Genocide. 

It's fulfillment of prophecy (where almost all the world turns against Israel, and eventually they will be alone against enemies that will surround them), but it makes me sad how much we have forgotten that THEY are the blood relatives of the Savior, the chosen people from whence he came, and the chosen who first received the covenant. 

The Jews have been a persecuted people for centuries though.  Only recently did they have a short reprieve due to a the holocaust and resulting horror in the early and mid 20th centuries.  I see the persecution returning these days and the dislike of them coming from all men in all nations.  It's as the Bible has said, and I think that eventually it will lead to the events of the second coming.  We see these things happening before our eyes. 

I stand with the Church, but I also support Israel.  If the Bible is correct, there will come a time that standing with the Jews, or even more so, with Israel, could be a very dangerous position to take.  I hope I'll still have the courage to support them during those times as well (saying I'm still alive). 

[Carborendum]

 

[Traveler]

As I have personally navigated through the few years of human history during my lifetime it has been interesting to me how few people have realized the trends of human society at the moment and have ignored various things until it affects them (or someone they know and love) directly.   It also seems to me that most of the events of human society involve a number of critical principles rather than just one or two – when in reality there are likely many critical principles – some of which are hidden.

It is interesting to me that along with the conflict of Israel and Hamas that as time goes on we are learning that many other human principalities are also involved and have been from the beginning of this latest conflict.  Fox news is covering a claim made by a US senator that an employee of the UN agency, (United Nations Relief and Works Agency) maintained a female Israeli hostage, taken by Hamas operatives, in their private resident for as many as 50 days.

In addition, it seems to me that there is a trend in political demonstrations involving individuals that are seemingly are not connected to Israel or Hamas but are demonstrating for Hamas.  That a possible majority of demonstrators in the USA also demonstrated for Black Lives Matter and LGBTQ+.

If between now and the next US presidential election, if China makes a move on Tiawan – I would suggest that the Israeli Hamas is a critical step in a global conflict decades in the planning that we are in essence witnessing the fulfillment of prophesy.

Another possible event on the horizon is a serious of violent conflicts between illegal immigrants and various groups (including law enforcement and economic interests {bank and various corporations) here in the USA.

 

 

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

I'm ashamed at how woefully uninformed US college students are.   This is a Wall Street Journal article written by Ron Hasner, a professor of political science at UC Berkeley:

Quote

When college students who sympathize with Palestinians chant “From the river to the sea,” do they know what they’re talking about? I hired a survey firm to poll 250 students from a variety of backgrounds across the U.S. Most said they supported the chant, some enthusiastically so (32.8%) and others to a lesser extent (53.2%).

But only 47% of the students who embrace the slogan were able to name the river and the sea. Some of the alternative answers were the Nile and the Euphrates, the Caribbean, the Dead Sea (which is a lake) and the Atlantic. Less than a quarter of these students knew who Yasser Arafat was (12 of them, or more than 10%, thought he was the first prime minister of Israel). Asked in what decade Israelis and Palestinians had signed the Oslo Accords, more than a quarter of the chant’s supporters claimed that no such peace agreements had ever been signed. There’s no shame in being ignorant, unless one is screaming for the extermination of millions.

Would learning basic political facts about the conflict moderate students’ opinions? A Latino engineering student from a southern university reported “definitely” supporting “from the river to the sea” because “Palestinians and Israelis should live in two separate countries, side by side.” Shown on a map of the region that a Palestinian state would stretch from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, leaving no room for Israel, he downgraded his enthusiasm for the mantra to “probably not.” Of the 80 students who saw the map, 75% similarly changed their view.

An art student from a liberal arts college in New England “probably” supported the slogan because “Palestinians and Israelis should live together in one state.” But when informed of recent polls in which most Palestinians and Israelis rejected the one-state solution, this student lost his enthusiasm. So did 41% of students in that group.

A third group of students claimed the chant called for a Palestine to replace Israel. Sixty percent of those students reduced their support for the slogan when they learned it would entail the subjugation, expulsion or annihilation of seven million Jewish and two million Arab Israelis. Yet another 14% of students reconsidered their stance when they read that many American Jews considered the chant to be threatening, even racist. (This argument had a weaker effect on students who self-identified as progressive, despite their alleged sensitivity to offensive speech.)

In all, after learning a handful of basic facts about the Middle East, 67.8% of students went from supporting “from the river to sea” to rejecting the mantra. These students had never seen a map of the Mideast and knew little about the region’s geography, history or demography. Those who hope to encourage extremism depend on the political ignorance of their audiences. It is time for good teachers to join the fray and combat bias with education.

 

[Carborendum]

11 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

I'm ashamed at how woefully uninformed US college students are.   This is a Wall Street Journal article written by Ron Hasner, a professor of political science at UC Berkeley:

This is an indicator of three social phenomena.

• Ignorance will tend to lead people to the worst path.
• If we don't learn what is right, we will tend to choose the wrong.
• The greater population of Jews in the US have ignored Niemoller's poem First they Came... A shame when it was meant to encourage protecting the Jews.  But have they spoken up to protect Christians?

Good for Professor Hassner for bringing this up.  But I wonder if he (as a Jew) has considered if his focus on religious violence would have reflected the things Jews have ignored when it only effected others.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Carborendum

[Traveler]

An admission:  as more time goes by and things continue to unfold – what is happening is not what I expected.  The attacks on international shipping are coming from Somali.  Somali is Sunni.  We are blaming all the problems in the Middle East on Iran – which is Shia.  9/11 was also Sunni.  All the money going to universities seems to be predominately Sunni.

I understand that the US does not get along well with Iran – but I do not believe Iran is really the problem that we are being told.  Something seems to be going on behind the curtain and we are not being told who the enemy pulling the strings really is.

 

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

Y'all paying attention to the rise of antisemitism globally, including here in the USA?

The latest startlingly hypocritical example: The presidents of MIT, Penn, and Harvard, asked if calls for genocide against Jews would violate their school policies against bullying/harassment.  In case you've been in an international news blackout, all 3 presidents refused to give a clear 'yes', instead couching their answers with maybes.  You might get disciplined for intentionally misgendering someone, but apparently advocating for another holocaust is just fine, unless it crosses over into "conduct".

A good bit of reading about how calls for genocide should be treated by folks who relish freedom of speech:

https://hotair.com/david-strom/2023/12/11/am-i-a-hypocrite-for-celebrating-magills-ouster-n598235?fbclid=IwAR17vcdFTif-0pclKEG0AzHQA21sJjwnqcW58qk37cL7jraKyygaWFdEDbs

 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by NeuroTypical

[JohnsonJones]

12 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Y'all paying attention to the rise of antisemitism globally, including here in the USA?

The latest startlingly hypocritical example: The presidents of MIT, Penn, and Harvard, asked if calls for genocide against Jews would violate their school policies against bullying/harassment.  In case you've been in an international news blackout, all 3 presidents refused to give a clear 'yes', instead couching their answers with maybes.  You might get disciplined for intentionally misgendering someone, but apparently advocating for another holocaust is just fine, unless it crosses over into "conduct".

A good bit of reading about how calls for genocide should be treated by folks who relish freedom of speech:

https://hotair.com/david-strom/2023/12/11/am-i-a-hypocrite-for-celebrating-magills-ouster-n598235?fbclid=IwAR17vcdFTif-0pclKEG0AzHQA21sJjwnqcW58qk37cL7jraKyygaWFdEDbs

 

 

 

Another portion of What I would consider Anti-Semitism...

The Republicans in Congress REFUSE to send aid to Israel unless they get money (aka...money to send to supposedly fight the border wall, but from what I've looked at, it appears more to send to contractors who will give them kickbacks and then say they are doing something on the border).

In addition, they refuse to support Ukraine in it's fight against a nation that literally has threatened us repeatedly over the past few months with nuclear war or worse (though we properly have called it a bluff, Russia IS NOT our Friend currently).

I AM AGHAST.

They are choosing to purposefully NOT send aid to Israel unless their temper tantrum is met.

This is NOT the Republican party I remember from decades ago.  I can't believe the Religious portion of the party isn't throwing a fit about this!?  This should upset the Evangelicals and Fundamentalists at a minimum.  No one is throwing a complaint though!

Has the entire portion of Christianity gone to supporting Antisemitism?  Or being Anti-Semitic unless they get kickbacks or something in return?

Now, though the Democrats look to be coming out of this a tad cleaner on this, I have no question that if the shoe was on the other foot, they would be doing similar things (probably just as dirty)...but so far they haven't.

Which is probably one reason the Republicans are doing what they are doing.  They just want to do the opposite of the Democrats for no other reason than to be contrary.

It sickens me.  While Israel fights against those who would destroy it from the River to the Sea and kill all the Jews and Arab Israelis (who Hamas at times consider traitors) in a genocide...the United States Congress doesn't do what is right and support Israel in it's own 9-11 attack on it.

In addition, former Presidents and those who fought against the Oligarchy in Russia (Russia claimed to be following Marxist Communism, but at least from Stalin and probably before that it was more an Oligarchy than pure Marxism) are probably turning in their graves.  Ukraine is fighting for it's freedom and democracy and we are sitting on our haunches.

When did the Republicans change from a Party that wanted smaller government, but ALSO normally on international affairs were rather strong (it was Reagan and Bush who won the Cold War if anyone recalls) changed into the party of Big Government (the deficit has risen due to the Taxation policies of Trump greater than it has ever before...though the Democrats could have revoked them and didn't for starters) and trying to ignore the battles against democracy (Israel is also one of the ONLY democracies in the Middle East) and Freedom?

We want to talk about Anti-Semitism...I see it coming from both the Left and the Right currently.  There's no side which seems to be in the clean right now and it has me stunned.  I'd have never thought we'd be in this type of position if you had asked me years ago (and Ironically I may have put the Democrats as the ones who would be asking for something in return to aiding Israel, but nope, it's the Republicans)...and yet...here we are.

Edited December 12, 2023 by JohnsonJones

[Traveler]

On 12/12/2023 at 3:29 AM, JohnsonJones said:

 

Another portion of What I would consider Anti-Semitism...

The Republicans in Congress REFUSE to send aid to Israel unless they get money (aka...money to send to supposedly fight the border wall, but from what I've looked at, it appears more to send to contractors who will give them kickbacks and then say they are doing something on the border).

In addition, they refuse to support Ukraine in it's fight against a nation that literally has threatened us repeatedly over the past few months with nuclear war or worse (though we properly have called it a bluff, Russia IS NOT our Friend currently).

I AM AGHAST.

They are choosing to purposefully NOT send aid to Israel unless their temper tantrum is met.

This is NOT the Republican party I remember from decades ago.  I can't believe the Religious portion of the party isn't throwing a fit about this!?  This should upset the Evangelicals and Fundamentalists at a minimum.  No one is throwing a complaint though!

Has the entire portion of Christianity gone to supporting Antisemitism?  Or being Anti-Semitic unless they get kickbacks or something in return?

Now, though the Democrats look to be coming out of this a tad cleaner on this, I have no question that if the shoe was on the other foot, they would be doing similar things (probably just as dirty)...but so far they haven't.

Which is probably one reason the Republicans are doing what they are doing.  They just want to do the opposite of the Democrats for no other reason than to be contrary.

It sickens me.  While Israel fights against those who would destroy it from the River to the Sea and kill all the Jews and Arab Israelis (who Hamas at times consider traitors) in a genocide...the United States Congress doesn't do what is right and support Israel in it's own 9-11 attack on it.

In addition, former Presidents and those who fought against the Oligarchy in Russia (Russia claimed to be following Marxist Communism, but at least from Stalin and probably before that it was more an Oligarchy than pure Marxism) are probably turning in their graves.  Ukraine is fighting for it's freedom and democracy and we are sitting on our haunches.

When did the Republicans change from a Party that wanted smaller government, but ALSO normally on international affairs were rather strong (it was Reagan and Bush who won the Cold War if anyone recalls) changed into the party of Big Government (the deficit has risen due to the Taxation policies of Trump greater than it has ever before...though the Democrats could have revoked them and didn't for starters) and trying to ignore the battles against democracy (Israel is also one of the ONLY democracies in the Middle East) and Freedom?

We want to talk about Anti-Semitism...I see it coming from both the Left and the Right currently.  There's no side which seems to be in the clean right now and it has me stunned.  I'd have never thought we'd be in this type of position if you had asked me years ago (and Ironically I may have put the Democrats as the ones who would be asking for something in return to aiding Israel, but nope, it's the Republicans)...and yet...here we are.

You have my full attention – what contractors?  What kickback promised in the form of what to who?

I suspect many kickbacks occurring to both political parties, media corporations and educational institutions.  I am quite sure that foreign money is funneled through George Soros that directly effects our border security (among other security interests ), but I do not see much going to the Republicans.  I understand that that Shia backed funds (mostly through Qatar) reaches educational institutions (almost exclusively liberal) and China invests in media (though I suspect they desire our borders are open and a distraction away from ports of entry sescurity).  I suspect that a lot of political lobbying offers back and forth through Pharmaceuticals effecting the advertising of prescription drugs and fact tracking various vaccines.  I do not doubt that there is a connection between failing green energy companies and various elected officials.  But again, all this is weighted more towards the progressive democrats.

Then again it is hard to tell who are the good guys verses the bad guys in politics – that is if there are any good guys.  I think I would prefer that political money, in regards to our southern border, be funneled more towards US companies giving kick banks to government officials than to Mexican and China drug cartels giving kickback to government officials.

 

The Traveler

Edited December 13, 2023 by Traveler

[Traveler]

23 hours ago, Traveler said:

You have my full attention – what contractors?  What kickback promised in the form of what to who?

I suspect many kickbacks occurring to both political parties, media corporations and educational institutions.  I am quite sure that foreign money is funneled through George Soros that directly effects our border security (among other security interests ), but I do not see much going to the Republicans.  I understand that that Shia backed funds (mostly through Qatar) reaches educational institutions (almost exclusively liberal) and China invests in media (though I suspect they desire our borders are open and a distraction away from ports of entry sescurity).  I suspect that a lot of political lobbying offers back and forth through Pharmaceuticals effecting the advertising of prescription drugs and fact tracking various vaccines.  I do not doubt that there is a connection between failing green energy companies and various elected officials.  But again, all this is weighted more towards the progressive democrats.

Then again it is hard to tell who are the good guys verses the bad guys in politics – that is if there are any good guys.  I think I would prefer that political money, in regards to our southern border, be funneled more towards US companies giving kick banks to government officials than to Mexican and China drug cartels giving kickback to government officials.

 

The Traveler

I have a little admission to make concerning this post.  I set a little trap just in case someone was not doing their homework.  Shia funds are not funneled through Qatar.  It is Sunni funds that are funneled through Qatar.  The ramification of both international and domestic effects to our nation and who is really behind the money is most significant.  Clue – it is not Iran.

I apologize for my intended nefarious trap and am grateful that no one fell for it.

 

The Traveler