Is Faith in Jesus Christ More Important for our Salvation than the Condition of our Hearts?

[Carborendum]

16 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I didn't mention anything about Buddhism.

I realize you didn't say that in this thread.  But I thought you had a while back.

I guess that was someone else.  I'm trying to remember who that was.

16 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Not the same context as to what I'm addressing. I said "faith in Jesus Christ" and you switched it to "worship." Not the same. Faith in Jesus Christ can also apply to faith in the light of Christ that is within us. We are the body of Christ when we take upon ourselves the name of Jesus Christ.

Of course it's not the same.  Just as Christ and man are not the same.  But that is not a point that either of us are making.

What exactly do you believe faith is?  If you have faith in Christ, what does that mean to you?

Edited October 10, 2023 by Carborendum

[clbent04]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

What exactly do you believe faith is?  If you have faith in Christ, what does that mean to you?

I believe faith in Jesus Christ is not only faith in the supreme being Jesus Christ, but also in all things related to truth and light since He is the source of all things good. Faith in Jesus Christ to me means that we follow and embrace the light inside or outside the name of religion. 

[Carborendum]

Just now, clbent04 said:

I believe faith in Jesus Christ is not only faith in the supreme being Jesus Christ, but also in all things related to truth and light since He is the source of all things good. Faith in Jesus Christ to me means that we follow and embrace the light inside or outside the name of religion. 

Forgive me, but... that doesn't even sound Christian.  It sounds like generic spiritualism.

Let's take a look at this more closely.

Just now, clbent04 said:

I believe faith in Jesus Christ is not only faith in the supreme being Jesus Christ

This is just tautology.  But you say you believe that this highly superficial description is but a minor part of your faith.

Just now, clbent04 said:

but also in all things related to truth and light

While true, this is so generic that it is completely non-committal.

Just now, clbent04 said:

since He is the source of all things good.

OK, "He" meaning Christ. That's good.

This is what I meant about words meaning things.

Just now, clbent04 said:

Faith in Jesus Christ to me means that we follow and embrace the light inside or outside the name of religion. 

This is basically saying that you're making every effort to divorce yourself from Christ in your pursuit of truth.

I have no idea if that's what you meant.  But that is what your words are saying.

Do you want to reconsider?

This is why your evangelical Christian friends wanted you to say some very simple non-committal words "I accept Jesus into my heart."  That is totally wishy-washy and vague.  But it at least points in the general direction.

Whether you mean it or not, your words say that you're trying to go the other direction.  Words mean something.

[clbent04]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

While true, this is so generic that it is completely non-committal.

I don't want a more specific and narrow description of God. Saying He is all things related to truth and light supports my belief in His all encompassing presence related to all things good.

[clbent04]

17 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Whether you mean it or not, your words say that you're trying to go the other direction.  Words mean something.

Sometimes it's the fault of the author. Sometimes it's the fault of the interpreter. Whichever the case, we both are followers of Jesus, and truth, and light. My failure for adequately conveying what's in my heart or your failure in misinterpreting it doesn't change that.

[zil2]

10 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I don't want a more specific and narrow description of God. Saying He is all things related to truth and light supports my belief in His all encompassing presence related to all things good.

I don't like to say it, @clbent04, but I feel compelled to...  Your words sound like, "I don't want to know the truth about God because it interferes with things I believe."  Are you wanting to bolster your own current beliefs or are you wanting to gain an understanding of and relationship with God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

That said, I don't understand how a correct understanding of God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost can possibly fail to support a believe that God is the source of all good - since that's true.

[clbent04]

58 minutes ago, zil2 said:

I don't like to say it, @clbent04, but I feel compelled to...  Your words sound like, "I don't want to know the truth about God because it interferes with things I believe."  Are you wanting to bolster your own current beliefs or are you wanting to gain an understanding of and relationship with God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

That said, I don't understand how a correct understanding of God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost can possibly fail to support a believe that God is the source of all good - since that's true.

I don’t feel the need to respond further. Thank you for responses. I may revisit at a later time. 

[zil2]

3 hours ago, clbent04 said:

I don’t feel the need to respond further. Thank you for responses. I may revisit at a later time. 

I'm sorry if I offended you, @clbent04.  Events of recent years have hammered home to me (through the hardest trial I've ever experienced) that the first and great commandment - to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind - is first and greatest for good reason, and this means that it is worthy of your first and greatest efforts to obey.

Perhaps our discussion has only suffered from misunderstandings in the language used or the difficulty in communicating perspective.  I just hope you will remember to keep God the Father and Jesus Christ in the picture as you pursue the abstracts of various virtues and principles which they exemplify.

Please know I don't think ill of you and wish you all the best.

Edited October 11, 2023 by zil2

[clbent04]

44 minutes ago, zil2 said:

I'm sorry if I offended you, @clbent04.  Events of recent years have hammered home to me (through the hardest trial I've ever experienced) that the first and great commandment - to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind - is first and greatest for good reason, and this means that it is worthy of your first and greatest efforts to obey.

Perhaps our discussion has only suffered from misunderstandings in the language used or the difficulty in communicating perspective.  I just hope you will remember to keep God the Father and Jesus Christ in the picture as you pursue the abstracts of various virtues and principles which they exemplify.

Please know I don't think ill of you and wish you all the best.

No hard feelings. I appreciate your responses. I’m aware this thread is a bit scatterbrained on my part due to me trying to put words to thoughts I’ve never articulated before. What I can say is it’s one of those things where if we both put in enough brain power to sort out, we’d likely come to the conclusion that either we were saying the same thing all along in different ways or the differences are so minimal they’re immaterial. Instead of doing the work to get there, I’m content just leaving it where it is knowing that we both have good intentions and are coming from good places. 

[CV75]

On 10/10/2023 at 5:19 PM, clbent04 said:

I believe faith in Jesus Christ is not only faith in the supreme being Jesus Christ, but also in all things related to truth and light since He is the source of all things good. Faith in Jesus Christ to me means that we follow and embrace the light inside or outside the name of religion. 

Many people who do not have the restored gospel or even religion at all can still "follow and embrace the light" by abiding the principles of truth they do have. Over time we believe this will lead them to faith in Christ and making and keeping His covenants.

I suppose this can extend to Church members who have faith in the Word of Wisdom, Tithing and other principles of light such as chastity, honesty, service, etc., and keep them and enjoy the blessings thereof, but may not yet connect these blessings to Christ personally, or think about Him much, or have a solid or valiant relationship with Him. They functionally "follow and embrace the light inside or outside the name of religion" and hopefully will eventually become converted to Christ.

Many saints make and keep covenants without what they may feel is a sufficient level of faith in Christ but keep striving (which itself I consider to be an attitude and act of faith in Christ).

[clbent04]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Many people who do not have the restored gospel or even religion at all can still "follow and embrace the light" by abiding the principles of truth they do have. Over time we believe this will lead them to faith in Christ and making and keeping His covenants.

If God is the source of all light, and I'm motivated to action to do good by the influence of light, would I not already have faith in Christ even if I didn't know the specific name Jesus Christ?

Edited October 11, 2023 by clbent04

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

If God is the source of all light, and I'm motivated to action to do good by the influence of light, would I not already have faith in Christ even if I didn't know the specific name Jesus Christ?

Dunno, I wouldn’t plan my salvation based on your preference.

It would be like living in the dark ages and keeping clean because you have obsessive compulsive behavior.  When an epidemic hits, you will probably be much less likely to catch the plague because you maintain cleanliness and desire to isolate yourself from others because of your need to control your environment.

As opposed to being an educated doctor and knowing that the plague is caused by transmission of the bacteria Yersinia pestis via the vector of rat fleas, or water droplets from infected individuals 😷. With this knowledge you can educate others and prevent the disease.  Also, you can develop antibiotics to cure people that are affected by the disease.  You can help yourself and others by your knowledge of the truth.  

Some may feel like ignorance is bliss.

Knowledge is power.

Intelligence is using knowledge wisely.

Edited October 12, 2023 by mikbone

[clbent04]

36 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Dunno, I wouldn’t plan my salvation based on your preference.

It's not so much my preference as it is my understanding of God and how I believe God sees all His children and interacts with the world at large. I spent most my life overly concerned about how God will judge the world. Now I'm happy to leave that to the worry of others who might be stuck like I was in overly focusing on how God might condemn. I believe God is more merciful, understanding, and forgiving than most of us give Him credit for.

Edited October 12, 2023 by clbent04

[LDSGator]

34 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I believe God is more merciful, understanding, and forgiving than most of us give Him credit for.

Amen to that bud! 

[CV75]

16 hours ago, clbent04 said:

If God is the source of all light, and I'm motivated to action to do good by the influence of light, would I not already have faith in Christ even if I didn't know the specific name Jesus Christ?

If you never heard of Christ, at what point would you be able to acknowledge your faith in Him? Or, what is the difference between holding to an "anonymous" principle of light (such as compassion), and faith in Christ, or the difference between the fruits of compassion and faith in Christ, who has many other attributes? At what point does human compassion become perfect in the form of life eternal for self and others?

Jesus is aware of our heeding His light, and He knows our names, but for many, and for so long, we do not know His name and gospel, what He did for us  and why, and what He invites us to do in His name, and why. Until we learn the fuller picture. Doing good does not yield the same results as exercising faith in Christ and walking the covenant path.

So. I think the difference  is a matter of degree at best.  The only way out of spirit prison is through faith in Christ, and many good people are stuck there until they accept the Gospel message, which begins with faith in Christ. This prison exists in this life as well as after we die.

Edited October 12, 2023 by CV75

[CV75]

14 hours ago, clbent04 said:

It's not so much my preference as it is my understanding of God and how I believe God sees all His children and interacts with the world at large. I spent most my life overly concerned about how God will judge the world. Now I'm happy to leave that to the worry of others who might be stuck like I was in overly focusing on how God might condemn. I believe God is more merciful, understanding, and forgiving than most of us give Him credit for.

And I beleive it is this aspect of faith in Christ that frees you from that worry which you had previously. What other principle of light would have freed you to see God's mercy, understanding and forgiveness (to the same degree as a personal faith in and relationship with Him)? Who would worry about God's condemnation if they had not known of it or had no faith in Him?

[The Folk Prophet]

Without having read the thread or the details of it, but just looking at the question:

Is Faith in Jesus Christ More Important for our Salvation than the Condition of our Hearts?

The simple, plain and obvious answer is yes. Faith in Jesus Christ is more important for our salvation than the condition of our heart.

The reason for Jesus Christ's atonement is EXACTLY because of the guaranteed failure we'll all have in our heart's conditions. It is through faith in Him (and associated repentance) that we are redeemed BY Him, not by ourselves and our condition, status, prowess, etc.,etc.

Edited October 12, 2023 by The Folk Prophet

[The Folk Prophet]

17 hours ago, clbent04 said:

I believe God is more merciful, understanding, and forgiving than most of us give Him credit for.

I believe this is true.

I also believe He is more strict, severe, and harsh than most of us give Him credit for.

Here's my take, for what it's worth.

People pit justice against mercy as if they're opposing forces (not saying you're doing that, just generally). My view has always been that justice encompasses mercy. Justice is equivalent to fairness. God is perfectly just. He is perfectly fair.

The atonement and God's plan for us with it is designed so that God can be just. Perfectly. Without the atonement I don't think God could be perfectly just. With it He can. That's why it was done. That's why it is His plan. In His perfectness he satisfies justice.

I know the scriptures speak of the theoretical, no mercy without the atonement. But I think there's also no justice without the atonement. As if God would send us to earth, give us no way to repent, and then condemn us all. He would not do that. It would not be just. But he also would not do as Satan's plan implied either...save us all regardless. That also wouldn't be just.

Justice will be. Period. There will be no "you deserved this but you're getting that instead". Everyone will get what they deserve*. They will get what they deserve BECAUSE of the atonement. (Of course we're getting into semantics here a bit, because from another view practically no one will get what they deserve. Since by strict law we all deserve the darkest hell.)

Mercy cannot rob justice. It must be PART of justice. Justice must be. God cannot be unfair. Will not be unfair. He won't punish when it isn't deserved*. He won't reward when it isn't deserved (once again "deserved" being a semantically relative term*.)

He made a way for us to escape the condemnation required from our sin. Christ paid that price. Therefore we can repent.

*The way we "deserve" anything is through the conditions set -- which conditions are faith in His name, obedience to His law, and repentance when we transgress that law.

In other words, God will not condemn any who repent... that is his mercy. But he will not save any who do not repent. That is His justice.

So yes, his mercy is greater than we understand. But we cannot and should not think that means that any of us can be saved in our sins. We can and will be saved from our sins if we repent. If we do not repent, we cannot be saved, and no amount of presumed mercy can or will change that.

Edited October 12, 2023 by The Folk Prophet

[CV75]

21 hours ago, clbent04 said:

If God is the source of all light, and I'm motivated to action to do good by the influence of light, would I not already have faith in Christ even if I didn't know the specific name Jesus Christ?

Semantically, and on a logical/formulaic level, yes. And at the same time, no -- it depends on your assigned definitions and your experience with the specific Person, Jesus Christ. A formula is objective, lending itself to be a tool meeting the subjective purpose of whomever accepts and applies it. You mentioned how this formula frees you from judging others who do not yet recognize the specific name of Christ, because deep down, by this logic, they really do have faith in Him. But what about those who, deep down, really don't, as humble as they might be since it is a different kind of humility (a "different gospel/Jesus")?

This is why I tried to personalize your description by asking, "If you never heard of Christ, at what point would you be able to acknowledge your faith in Him?" Faith in Christ, or in anything, is a subjective experience, a product of your "mental states" (which for me includes spiritual processes) in response to the world around you ("...faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God"). Alma 32 discusses how people who lack faith in Christ can develop it through an experiment with their subjective experience, already being humble (in the right way!), and does so without judging them even though deep down, they haven't yet had such an experience.

Edited October 12, 2023 by CV75

[clbent04]

17 hours ago, CV75 said:

If you never heard of Christ, at what point would you be able to acknowledge your faith in Him?

In the Spirit World is where I think the greatest reconciliation to this will happen.

[clbent04]

22 hours ago, CV75 said:

Doing good does not yield the same results as exercising faith in Christ and walking the covenant path.

I believe it is the same. I say this not from an LDS religious viewpoint, but how I believe God sees and evaluates all of His children on a spiritual level.

All good is inspired by God, and He has many routes leading us back to His Kingdom. That's not to say I don't believe in "one Lord, one faith, one baptism." It's to say if there is one and only one true religion out there, the God I believe in isn't going to condemn us until we are given the choice to choose with sure knowledge of all options.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

I believe it is the same. I say this not from an LDS religious viewpoint, but how I believe God sees and evaluates all of His children on a spiritual level.

All good is inspired by God, and He has many routes leading us back to His Kingdom. That's not to say I don't believe in "one Lord, one faith, one baptism." It's to say if there is one and only one true religion out there, the God I believe in isn't going to condemn us until we are given the choice to choose with sure knowledge of all options.

The reason I say that doing good does not yield the same results as exercising faith in Christ and walking the covenant path comes from Moroni 7:

16 For behold, the ^aSpirit of Christ is given to every ^bman, that he may ^cknow good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do ^aevil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the ^alight by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same ^bjudgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.

This passage explains that every thing which invites us to do good and believe in Christ comes from God, but that which persuades us to believe not in Christ and deny Him comes from the devil. This renders a situation where people can be persuaded do good (glass half full) and yet deny Christ at the same time (glass half empty). We are all sinners but the Spirit strives with us. As you point out, our doctrine allows that this can be rectified, at the latest, in the spirit world where the fulness of the gospel is preached and proxy ordinances are extended.

Where you believe going good and exercising faith in Christ are the same, how is your belief that there is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" consistent with the possibility (you use “if”) that there is not “one and only one true religion out there”? How is “choose with sure knowledge” the same as “know with a perfect knowledge” sufficient to “choose with faith.”? There is a certain point in Alma 32 (see verses 34-36) where sure (perfect) knowledge is gained, and yet it is still not perfect. I think this is where equating the glass half full (predominant attitude that people have faith in goodness) with the full glass (the predominant attitude that people have faith in Christ), while disregarding the empty glass (the predominant attitude that people deny Christ), breaks down. The three distinct dynamics (faith in goodness, faith in Christ, and denying Christ) can co-exist in the same person.

[clbent04]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Where you believe doing good and exercising faith in Christ are the same, how is your belief that there is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" consistent with the possibility (you use “if”) that there is not “one and only one true religion out there”? 

I don't know if God's one and only true religion is currently present on Earth. Whether it is or not, I believe God is a God of order and that a reconciliation will happen in due time to bring all His children together in His Kingdom. 

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

How is “choose with sure knowledge” the same as “know with a perfect knowledge” sufficient to “choose with faith.”? 

Since I believe faith in Jesus Christ includes being prompted to do good both inside and outside the name of religion, and that He is the source of all good, I don't think it's important for our salvation (at least in this life) to be able to specifically name Jesus Christ as the source of that good.

Bob does a good deed and in doing so helps build the Kingdom of God whether Bob knew the name Jesus Christ or not.

Since my definition of faith in Jesus Christ is extended to any doer of good, this qualifies the majority of mankind to at least have had some degree of faith in Christ during our mortal lives. 

I believe at some point every knee will bend and every tongue will confess that Jesus is the Lord. At that point or sometime leading up to it, I believe all will be presented with the truth that Jesus Christ is Lord in a way it can not be refuted or denied. From that moment on, it will then be to our condemnation if we do not reverence and acknowledge the name Jesus Christ.

I believe the words in Moroni 7 that we can have perfect knowledge of things which are of God through the Holy Spirit. The chapter is focused on relying on the Holy Spirit to distinguish between good and evil.

Edited October 13, 2023 by clbent04

[CV75]

32 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I don't know if God's one and only true religion is currently present on Earth. Whether it is or not, I believe God is a God of order and that a reconciliation will happen in due time to bring all His children together in His Kingdom. 

Then I understand your position. We tend to justify our beliefs before creating justifications we can believe in. For example, "Since I believe (x) it's important that (y) holds and therefore (z) does not," as indicated below.

32 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Since I believe faith in Jesus Christ includes being prompted to do good both inside and outside the name of religion, and that He is the source of all good, I don't think it's important for our salvation (at least in this life) to be able to specifically name Jesus Christ as the source of that good.

Bob does a good deed and in doing so helps build the Kingdom of God whether Bob knew the name Jesus Christ or not.

Since my definition of faith in Jesus Christ is extended to any doer of good, this qualifies the majority of mankind to at least have had some degree of faith in Christ during our mortal lives. 

I believe at some point every knee will bend and every tongue will confess that Jesus is the Lord. At that point or sometime leading up to it, I believe all will be presented with the truth that Jesus Christ is Lord in a way it can not be refuted or denied. From that moment on, it will then be to our condemnation if we do not reverence and acknowledge the name Jesus Christ.

I believe the words in Moroni 7 that we can have perfect knowledge of things which are of God through the Holy Spirit. The chapter is focused on relying on the Holy Spirit to distinguish between good and evil.

But I would say, even with your semantics, that it is equally important to specifically name Jesus Christ as the source of “good” in any estate, since the eternal principle of faith in Christ exists in all of them, and our union or perfection in Him is the ultimate aim. Moroni 7 is focused on Christ: see how often the following terms are used: faith in Christ, faith in his name, faith in him, faith in me, and the context for the discussion of faith as linked with hope (through Christ) and charity (the pure love of Christ) as introduced in verse 1. It is all Christ-centered.

Edited October 13, 2023 by CV75

[askandanswer]

This, to me, seems to provide some valuable guidance on this question:

5 I saw Father ^aAdam and ^bAbraham; and my ^cfather and my mother; my brother ^dAlvin, that has long since ^eslept;

6 And ^amarveled how it was that he had obtained an ^binheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to ^cgather Israel the second time, and had not been ^dbaptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the ^avoice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died ^bwithout a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be ^cheirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who ^awould have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will ^ajudge all men according to their ^bworks, according to the ^cdesire of their hearts.