Favoring Israel

[prisonchaplain]

The facts seem to favor Israel in the current conflict. "The other side started it," would usually work when explaining to the yard duty at the elementary school playground why fighting took place--if it could be proven. In this case, the Palestinians admit to starting the conflict. Those taking their side claim that the hostilities were decades in coming but admit that their side threw the first punch in the current conflict.

Evangelicals favor Israel for another reason. Many of us see Israel and modern Jews as pivotal to end-times prophesy. We believe God will bring a revival at the end of time and that many/most Jews will come to accept Jesus as their Messiah. We continue to believe that the Jews are God's special people. We reject "replacement theology," which suggests that the Christian church has inherited God's promises to Abraham and the Jewish people. 

So, while some criticism of the Israeli government may come from our corner, for the most part we are inclined to favor Israel in these conflicts. Further, every time hostilities break out, we renew our passion for the Lord's return. 

Are their similar feelings among the saints or are beliefs about the end times quite different?

[mikbone]

 

[Carborendum]

5 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

The facts seem to favor Israel in the current conflict. "The other side started it," would usually work when explaining to the yard duty at the elementary school playground why fighting took place--if it could be proven. In this case, the Palestinians admit to starting the conflict. Those taking their side claim that the hostilities were decades in coming but admit that their side threw the first punch in the current conflict.

Evangelicals favor Israel for another reason. Many of us see Israel and modern Jews as pivotal to end-times prophesy. We believe God will bring a revival at the end of time and that many/most Jews will come to accept Jesus as their Messiah. We continue to believe that the Jews are God's special people. We reject "replacement theology," which suggests that the Christian church has inherited God's promises to Abraham and the Jewish people. 

So, while some criticism of the Israeli government may come from our corner, for the most part we are inclined to favor Israel in these conflicts. Further, every time hostilities break out, we renew our passion for the Lord's return. 

Are their similar feelings among the saints or are beliefs about the end times quite different?

Without trying to comment on the current conflict, I'll try answering your other questions.

Quote

We believe in the literal gathering of Israel, that Zion (the new Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent...

 -- AoF 12

We believe that we are the House of Israel just as much as the Jews (modern terminology) are.  We're not "replacing" them.  We are their cousins.  And as such, we are ALSO (not instead of) the inheritors of the blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  Thus by building the Church in the latter-days, we are gathering Israel.  The Ancient Covenant People and the Latter-day Covenant People (which is basically what "saints" means) will eventually join together even if it is only a social/political alliance and not necessarily a religious unity.

We believe that many Jews will be converted through missionary work. But most will only be convinced when the prophecy of Zechariah plays out:

The land of Israel is important in its role in the end times.  How much do modern Jews play into that?  I'm not sure.  I'll have to look into that.  I'll get back to you (unless someone else gets there first).

The two prophets of Rev 11 will be LDS Apostles.  And they will defend Israel, die, and be resurrected.

Quote

And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

 -- Zech 13:6

So, it seems that our understanding of end times are fairly close in many aspects.  But our role in it is a bit more special than what evangelicals may believe.

[prisonchaplain]

7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The two prophets of Rev 11 will be LDS Apostles.  And they will defend Israel, die, and be resurrected.

There is no official Evangelical view on this, though the end times movies I've seen tend to show ancient biblical prophets resurrected to fulfill this role. One of the more interesting takes on the 144,000 was that they were Jews with special power to call out an individual's sins and ask them to repent. The sins were accurate--revealed by the Holy Spirit--but most just got angry and stormed away. Seemed pretty accurate to me. 

[mikbone]

9 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The two prophets of Rev 11 will be LDS Apostles.  And they will defend Israel, die, and be resurrected.

I’m not sold on the idea that these two wittinesses will be LDS Apostles as we currently know them.

If you read the scriptures of note,

Revelations 11

2 Ne 8: 18-20

D&C 77:15

They don’t describe our current members of the quorum.

Although we do have:

“followers of that humble man Joseph Smith, through whom the Lord of Heaven restored the fulness of his everlasting gospel in this final dispensation of grace. No doubt they will be members of the Council of the Twelve or of the First Presidency of the Church.” (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:509.)  -  Bruce R McConkie

McConkie is well known for submitting his personal understanding as ‘Mormon Doctrine’  

[CV75]

10 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

The facts seem to favor Israel in the current conflict. "The other side started it," would usually work when explaining to the yard duty at the elementary school playground why fighting took place--if it could be proven. In this case, the Palestinians admit to starting the conflict. Those taking their side claim that the hostilities were decades in coming but admit that their side threw the first punch in the current conflict.

Evangelicals favor Israel for another reason. Many of us see Israel and modern Jews as pivotal to end-times prophesy. We believe God will bring a revival at the end of time and that many/most Jews will come to accept Jesus as their Messiah. We continue to believe that the Jews are God's special people. We reject "replacement theology," which suggests that the Christian church has inherited God's promises to Abraham and the Jewish people. 

So, while some criticism of the Israeli government may come from our corner, for the most part we are inclined to favor Israel in these conflicts. Further, every time hostilities break out, we renew our passion for the Lord's return. 

Are their similar feelings among the saints or are beliefs about the end times quite different?

I think your 2nd paragraph generally reflects our Church's teachings and members' attitudes. Some finer points perhaps, which I'll offer from my point of view:

1. Our Church is politically neutral, and where the state of Israel is one devised by man and not the covenant kingdom per se (e.g., as was David's), we take a theological view and really don't take sides in these kinds of conflict on religious grounds. Individual members are free make their personal political decisions however they justify them, acknowledging that the spirit of contention is of the devil and the Lord has revealed how His people are to engage in war. Related to this, Israel does not have a prophet to lead them no more than any other nation, and their constitutional freedoms and liberties are inspired of God but managed by fallible men.

2. The locale of the end-times prophecies seem very clear, but this would be the case irrespective of what government, or what kind of government, has jurisdiction over that geography. Jews will certainly there, and the Lord will fulfill His promises to His covenant people on conditions of repentance. The prophecies testify that there will be widescale repentance, sufficient to greet and worship the Savior upon Hs rescue of them at the last moment.

3. While Israel and the remnants of Israel living across the globe are indeed God's special or covenant people, the covenant is restored to them only through the ministry of the Gentiles who extend to them the covenants by way of the Restoration. This reflects the times of the Jews and the time of the Gentiles in turn from the Meridian of Time and the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times.

4. God extends the covenant to both the Gentiles and the Jews since the times of Paul, and in this current dispensation. The Book or Mormon details the promises to the Gentiles that were also mentioned by the prophet Isaiah of the Bible.

 

[CV75]

10 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

There is no official Evangelical view on this, though the end times movies I've seen tend to show ancient biblical prophets resurrected to fulfill this role. One of the more interesting takes on the 144,000 was that they were Jews with special power to call out an individual's sins and ask them to repent. The sins were accurate--revealed by the Holy Spirit--but most just got angry and stormed away. Seemed pretty accurate to me. 

Maybe we will finally see proof that a resurrected personage can withstand a hydrogen bomb landing directly on his head!  Now that's my kind of movie!

[CV75]

10 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Without trying to comment on the current conflict, I'll try answering your other questions.

We believe that we are the House of Israel just as much as the Jews (modern terminology) are.  We're not "replacing" them.  We are their cousins.  And as such, we are ALSO (not instead of) the inheritors of the blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  Thus by building the Church in the latter-days, we are gathering Israel.  The Ancient Covenant People and the Latter-day Covenant People (which is basically what "saints" means) will eventually join together even if it is only a social/political alliance and not necessarily a religious unity.

We believe that many Jews will be converted through missionary work. But most will only be convinced when the prophecy of Zechariah plays out:

The land of Israel is important in its role in the end times.  How much do modern Jews play into that?  I'm not sure.  I'll have to look into that.  I'll get back to you (unless someone else gets there first).

The two prophets of Rev 11 will be LDS Apostles.  And they will defend Israel, die, and be resurrected.

So, it seems that our understanding of end times are fairly close in many aspects.  But our role in it is a bit more special than what evangelicals may believe.

This is interesting in that Church members are Gentiles by virtue of the nation that is central to the restoration of the Gospel, and inasmuch as we live in a Gentile nation. We are also of the House of Israel, sometimes by lineage, sometimes by birth in the restored covenant, and sometimes by adoption as with coverts that are not by birth of the lineage of the chosen people. Overarching both of these is that we are beneficiaries of the Abrahamic Covenant, which preceded Israel and was eventually lost, but introduced again through Moses, recognized by Jesus Christ during His earthy ministry, extended to the Gentiles after His ascension, was again lost, and then restored yet again through Joseph Smith subsequent to that Great Apostasy.

[Carborendum]

3 hours ago, mikbone said:

I’m not sold on the idea that these two wittinesses will be LDS Apostles as we currently know them.

If you read the scriptures of note,

Revelations 11

2 Ne 8: 18-20

D&C 77:15

They don’t describe our current members of the quorum.

Although we do have:

“followers of that humble man Joseph Smith, through whom the Lord of Heaven restored the fulness of his everlasting gospel in this final dispensation of grace. No doubt they will be members of the Council of the Twelve or of the First Presidency of the Church.” (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:509.)  -  Bruce R McConkie

McConkie is well known for submitting his personal understanding as ‘Mormon Doctrine’  

Revelation 11 says that they have power to shut heaven and smite the earth with plagues.  This power is usually coupled with the Sealing Power.  Those are apostles.

2 Ne 8:18-20 (also Isaiah 51) You'll have to fist make a good argument that these "two sons" are the same as the two candlesticks in Revelation.  Then we'll talk.

D&C 77:15 What.  "Raised up to the Jewish nation..."  What does that have to do with who can be an apostle?

[mikbone]

8 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Revelation 11 says that they have power to shut heaven and smite the earth with plagues.  This power is usually coupled with the Sealing Power.  Those are apostles.

2 Ne 8:18-20 (also Isaiah 51) You'll have to fist make a good argument that these "two sons" are the same as the two candlesticks in Revelation.  Then we'll talk.

D&C 77:15 What.  "Raised up to the Jewish nation..."  What does that have to do with who can be an apostle?

I do believe that they will be apostles.  And latter-day saints.  As opposed to the ancient saints.

But I don’t think they will come from Salt Lake City.

There were 12 apostles with the Nephites while there were 12 apostles in Jerusalem…

[Traveler]

4 minutes ago, mikbone said:

......

There were 12 apostles with the Nephites while there were 12 apostles in Jerusalem…

Correction the 12 among the Nephites were called 12 diciples and were not (according to my understanding) a quorum of 12 apostles but 12 diciples. 

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Greetings @prisonchaplain:

In response to your questions about the Jews and the 144,000 I have sought how to answer.  I will begin with providing you a link to the journal of the LDS apostle and prophet, Elder Orson Hyde who was commanded by G-d to travel to the Holy Land and dedicate that land for the gathering of the Jews in the Last-days.  His record is dated Nov 22, 1841.  His journal entry gives some indication of the troubles in the area.  His dedicatory prayer is prophetic and most has obviously been fulfilled as a testament to its truthfulness and that these are the last-days.   The Link:

http://www.vibrationdata.com/Orson_Hyde.htm#:~:text=%22Do%20Thou%20arise%20in%20the,clothe%20her%20Priests%20with%20salvation.

I believe that this dedication is prophetic scripture but currently is not included in our standard works – perhaps at a later time.  It is my understanding that during this time of the last-days that the world (including the Jews) will experience troubles as prophesied concerning the last-days.  However, the Jews and the covenant Saints are under blessing afforded for the last-days – but this does not mean they will not experience hardships or threats (like unto Daniel and his brethren) just that they will be comforted by the spirit.

As things progress – it is my understanding that a coalition of evil will be established among the nations to destroy Israel (the Jews in Jerusalem) that have gathered as a nation according to the prophesy of Orson Hyde.   This coalition will be centered in the ancient kingdom of Gog and Magog which I believe to be either between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea or close by.  I cannot say I know but it appears that the “Axis of Evil” currently of Iran, Russia and China that initially was focused on Ukraine could be the beginning of such a coalition.

This coalition will bring violence throughout the world – I believe we are currently seeing a beginning of this.  An army will invade Israel.  I speculate that nuclear weapons will be involved, so that land will burn for 7 years.  A final battle will commence upon the Jews gathered in Jerusalem.  Two prophet witnesses (which is our LDS definition of apostle) will protect the Jews with divine power until they (the two witnesses) are killed in the streets of Jerusalem.  This event I believe will be celebrated worldwide.   As the army enters Jerusalem to destroy the Jews an earthquake will take place stopping the army and the mount of olives will split open.   The Jews will seek refuge there and Jesus will appear unto them and show his wounds in his hands, feet and side – this will mark the prophesy of the Jews converting unto Jesus as the Christ.  Following this Jesus will come and appear to the world in power and glory and ending all governments of men.

 

Concerning the 144,000.  I understand that this is a prophesy concerning a solemn assembly that will be held at Adam-ondi-Ahman.  We (LDS) believe this is the place where Adam and Eve, after being removed from the Garden of Eden, built an alter unto G-d and offered sacrifices.  After many days an angel of G-d appeared to Adam and Eve and asked why they offered sacrifices.  Adam responded that he did not know why only that G-d commanded him.  He was then told that such sacrifices were symbolic of the sacrifice that Jesus the Christ would make to atone for the fall of man and all the sins of the world.  Adam-ondi-Ahman is believed to be a sacred place like unto the place where Moses encountered the burning bush.

The 144,000 will be high priest of the order of Melchizedek.  There will be 12,000 high priest that have been given “Keys” to the priesthood of each of the houses (tribes) of Israel.  I believe your idea that some will be of ancient time is quite possible.  In addition to these high priests there will also be Moses, Noah, Melchizedek, Enoch, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Adam (and others that preceded the house of Israel).  All the keys of all dispensations will be gathered by Adam that will present these keys to Jesus Christ in preparation of his coming and reign on earth.  How much this solemn assembly will be known unto the world – I cannot say.  Even though I am a high priest of the order of Melchizedek – I cannot say with assuredly that I will even know when this solemn assembly takes place.

 

The Traveler

[mikbone]

22 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Correction the 12 among the Nephites were called 12 diciples and were not (according to my understanding) a quorum of 12 apostles but 12 diciples. 

 

The Traveler

Im not a word guy.  It drives my wife nuts as she has a degree in English.  I’m a concept / visual thinker.

Yes they were called disciples.  They were also special witnesses of Christ and were ordained, no doubt given keys etc.

1 Ne 12:7-10

Edited November 15, 2023 by mikbone

[CV75]

45 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Greetings @prisonchaplain:

In response to your questions about the Jews and the 144,000 I have sought how to answer.  I will begin with providing you a link to the journal of the LDS apostle and prophet, Elder Orson Hyde who was commanded by G-d to travel to the Holy Land and dedicate that land for the gathering of the Jews in the Last-days.  His record is dated Nov 22, 1841.  His journal entry gives some indication of the troubles in the area.  His dedicatory prayer is prophetic and most has obviously been fulfilled as a testament to its truthfulness and that these are the last-days.   The Link:

http://www.vibrationdata.com/Orson_Hyde.htm#:~:text=%22Do%20Thou%20arise%20in%20the,clothe%20her%20Priests%20with%20salvation.

I believe that this dedication is prophetic scripture but currently is not included in our standard works – perhaps at a later time.  It is my understanding that during this time of the last-days that the world (including the Jews) will experience troubles as prophesied concerning the last-days.  However, the Jews and the covenant Saints are under blessing afforded for the last-days – but this does not mean they will not experience hardships or threats (like unto Daniel and his brethren) just that they will be comforted by the spirit.

As things progress – it is my understanding that a coalition of evil will be established among the nations to destroy Israel (the Jews in Jerusalem) that have gathered as a nation according to the prophesy of Orson Hyde.   This coalition will be centered in the ancient kingdom of Gog and Magog which I believe to be either between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea or close by.  I cannot say I know but it appears that the “Axis of Evil” currently of Iran, Russia and China that initially was focused on Ukraine could be the beginning of such a coalition.

This coalition will bring violence throughout the world – I believe we are currently seeing a beginning of this.  An army will invade Israel.  I speculate that nuclear weapons will be involved, so that land will burn for 7 years.  A final battle will commence upon the Jews gathered in Jerusalem.  Two prophet witnesses (which is our LDS definition of apostle) will protect the Jews with divine power until they (the two witnesses) are killed in the streets of Jerusalem.  This event I believe will be celebrated worldwide.   As the army enters Jerusalem to destroy the Jews an earthquake will take place stopping the army and the mount of olives will split open.   The Jews will seek refuge there and Jesus will appear unto them and show his wounds in his hands, feet and side – this will mark the prophesy of the Jews converting unto Jesus as the Christ.  Following this Jesus will come and appear to the world in power and glory and ending all governments of men.

 

Concerning the 144,000.  I understand that this is a prophesy concerning a solemn assembly that will be held at Adam-ondi-Ahman.  We (LDS) believe this is the place where Adam and Eve, after being removed from the Garden of Eden, built an alter unto G-d and offered sacrifices.  After many days an angel of G-d appeared to Adam and Eve and asked why they offered sacrifices.  Adam responded that he did not know why only that G-d commanded him.  He was then told that such sacrifices were symbolic of the sacrifice that Jesus the Christ would make to atone for the fall of man and all the sins of the world.  Adam-ondi-Ahman is believed to be a sacred place like unto the place where Moses encountered the burning bush.

The 144,000 will be high priest of the order of Melchizedek.  There will be 12,000 high priest that have been given “Keys” to the priesthood of each of the houses (tribes) of Israel.  I believe your idea that some will be of ancient time is quite possible.  In addition to these high priests there will also be Moses, Noah, Melchizedek, Enoch, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Adam (and others that preceded the house of Israel).  All the keys of all dispensations will be gathered by Adam that will present these keys to Jesus Christ in preparation of his coming and reign on earth.  How much this solemn assembly will be known unto the world – I cannot say.  Even though I am a high priest of the order of Melchizedek – I cannot say with assuredly that I will even know when this solemn assembly takes place.

 

The Traveler

This part of the link to Orson Hyde's Dedicatory Prayer is very interesting to me:

“…restore the kingdom unto Israel -- raise up Jerusalem as its capital, and constitute her people a distinct nation and government, with David Thy servant, even a descendant from the loins of ancient David to be their king.”

Such a nation would serve the Lord. The divine impetus for the Jews to gather to the land of their inheritance, which Orson mentioned in his notes, like the Spirit of Elijah, can also be imitated and twisted into many false versions to suit the ambitions of evil and conspiring parties. Or, as with the settling of Missouri, become polluted due to “contentions, and envyings, and strifes, and lustful and covetous desires” (D&C 101) among factions within Judaism. I avoid describing his impression of the “great wheel… unquestionable in motion” as “Zionism” as we see it today, for this reason. The nation-building and its declaration as such a kingdom would require prophetic oversight.

[Carborendum]

4 hours ago, mikbone said:

I do believe that they will be apostles.  And latter-day saints.  As opposed to the ancient saints.

But I don’t think they will come from Salt Lake City.

There were 12 apostles with the Nephites while there were 12 apostles in Jerusalem…

If your only point of disagreement was whether or not they would be among the 15 positions of apostleship that we are currently accustomed to... I could buy that.

But the descriptions of the keys that these witnesses will bear are such that they would hold "the priesthood office of apostle" (or something acutely similar thereto).

Edited November 15, 2023 by Carborendum

[mikbone]

30 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

If your only point of disagreement was whether or not they would be among the 15 positions of apostleship that we are currently accustomed to... I could buy that.

But the descriptions of the keys that these witnesses will bear are such that they would hold "the priesthood office of apostle" (or something acutely similar thereto).

Yup, 

For all we know it could be John the Beloved and one of the Three Nephites.  They don't necessarily have to be 'latter' day saints.  Could be a few of the ancients. 

John 21:22, 3 NE 28:4-9

We just don't know, lots of options.  Could be a couple guys from the City of Enoch. 

 

I won't be one of those sending gifts one to another though.  Revelations 11:10

 

[Carborendum]

Just now, mikbone said:

Yup, 

For all we know it could be John the Beloved and one of the Three Nephites.  They don't necessarily have to be 'latter' day saints.  Could be a few of the ancients. 

John 21:22, 3 NE 28:4-9

We just don't know, lots of options.  Could be a couple guys from the City of Enoch. 

I won't be one of those sending gifts one to another though.  Revelations 11:10

I'm not seeing why the leap to ancient prophets comes into the discussion.  Normally, we assume "standard" conditions unless some indication says otherwise.

[mikbone]

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I'm not seeing why the leap to ancient prophets comes into the discussion.  Normally, we assume "standard" conditions unless some indication says otherwise.

I’m not trying to leap to any conclusion.  I’m leaving my options open.  

McConkie put forth the idea that they would come from SLC Headquarters.

I’m gonna be on the lookout for any prophets causing a ruckus in 🇮🇱.  

From what I gather, they won’t be in 3 piece suits and ties.  And my imagination pictures a couple guys in the prime of their life.  I could be wrong as always though.

Not going to delay the day of my repentance until 2 of our GAs get stuck in Jerusalem.

[Carborendum]

30 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I’m not trying to leap to any conclusion.  I’m leaving my options open.  

McConkie put forth the idea that they would come from SLC Headquarters.

I’m gonna be on the lookout for any prophets causing a ruckus in 🇮🇱.  

From what I gather, they won’t be in 3 piece suits and ties.  And my imagination pictures a couple guys in the prime of their life.  I could be wrong as always though.

Not going to delay the day of my repentance until 2 of our GAs get stuck in Jerusalem.

I wouldn't hold my breath.  We're probably going to be rotting in our graves by the time these events unfold.

[askandanswer]

This is an issue that puzzles me. My understanding is that God's gift of the land of Israel to the Jews was heavily dependent on a number of important conditions as set out in the Law of Moses. The Jews abandoned some of the central aspects of that law more than a thousand years ago and they have been practicing a false religion, worshipping an incorrect concept of God for even longer. Practicing a false religion or practicing a religion falsely was a contributing factor to the Jews losing the land under the Babylonian exile. In more recent times I would have thought that the Jews abandonment of the conditions on which the gift was made meant that the promise was no longer in place, in much the same way that the Jaredites and Nephites also lost the lands that had been conditionally given to them. Without that claim of divine entitlement, Jewish claims on the land of Israel are no weaker or stronger than other groups occupying that land.

I have no doubt that God gave the land of Israel to the Jews. I am confident that that gift was conditional. I don't believe the Jews have abided by those conditions. So, as stated in the fine print of the deal between God and Moses, failure to meet the conditions on which the gift was given has led to the deal being revoked and the deal is now off. That doesn't mean that the Jews have no right to that land. But I think it means that they can't claim a divine right. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by askandanswer

[laronius]

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

This is an issue that puzzles me. My understanding is that God's gift of the land of Israel to the Jews was heavily dependent on a number of important conditions as set out in the Law of Moses. The Jews abandoned some of the central aspects of that law more than a thousand years ago and they have been practicing a false religion, worshipping an incorrect concept of God for even longer. Practicing a false religion or practicing a religion falsely was a contributing factor to the Jews losing the land under the Babylonian exile. In more recent times I would have thought that the Jews abandonment of the conditions on which the gift was made meant that the promise was no longer in place, in much the same way that the Jaredites and Nephites also lost the lands that had been conditionally given to them. Without that claim of divine entitlement, Jewish claims on the land of Israel are no weaker or stronger than other groups occupying that land.

I have no doubt that God gave the land of Israel to the Jews. I am confident that that gift was conditional. I don't believe the Jews have abided by those conditions. So, as stated in the fine print of the deal between God and Moses, failure to meet the conditions on which the gift was given has led to the deal being revoked and the deal is now off. That doesn't mean that the Jews have no right to that land. But I think it means that they can't claim a divine right. 

I think you make a good point. Apostasy has led the Jews to be stripped of their inheritance on multiple occasions.

Abraham 6:6 But I, Abraham, and Lot, my brother’s son, prayed unto the Lord, and the Lord appeared unto me, and said unto me: Arise, and take Lot with thee; for I have purposed to take thee away out of Haran, and to make of thee a minister to bear my name in a strange land which I will give unto thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession, when they hearken to my voice.

I think the current conflict is in fact a result of their disobedience long, long ago which allowed other people to take possession of the land. But it is still the land of their inheritance and the place they are prophetically expected to gather to. So we can label that situation however we want to but there are definite promises made to the House of Israel concerning that land that have not been made to other peoples. 

[askandanswer]

8 hours ago, laronius said:

I think you make a good point. Apostasy has led the Jews to be stripped of their inheritance on multiple occasions.

Abraham 6:6 But I, Abraham, and Lot, my brother’s son, prayed unto the Lord, and the Lord appeared unto me, and said unto me: Arise, and take Lot with thee; for I have purposed to take thee away out of Haran, and to make of thee a minister to bear my name in a strange land which I will give unto thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession, when they hearken to my voice.

I think the current conflict is in fact a result of their disobedience long, long ago which allowed other people to take possession of the land. But it is still the land of their inheritance and the place they are prophetically expected to gather to. So we can label that situation however we want to but there are definite promises made to the House of Israel concerning that land that have not been made to other peoples. 

 

The promise

a strange land which I will give unto thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession,

The condition

when they hearken to my voice.

The promise:

9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a ^apromise, that ^binasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall ^cprosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall ^dkeep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land of their ^einheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever.

THe breach of promise

20 And it came to pass that I beheld, and saw the people of the seed of my brethren that they had overcome my seed; and they went forth in multitudes upon the face of the land.

 

11 And when they had gone through and hewn down ^aall my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.

[laronius]

37 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

 

The promise

a strange land which I will give unto thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession,

The condition

when they hearken to my voice.

The promise:

9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a ^apromise, that ^binasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall ^cprosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall ^dkeep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land of their ^einheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever.

THe breach of promise

20 And it came to pass that I beheld, and saw the people of the seed of my brethren that they had overcome my seed; and they went forth in multitudes upon the face of the land.

 

11 And when they had gone through and hewn down ^aall my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.

I think there are some definite similarities between the Americas as a promised land and the lands of Israel but there are differences too. Namely, the Americas as a land of promise seems to be transferable to whomever the Lord wants where as the lands of Israel have never been given to anyone but them though they may not have always retained possession of it.

[CV75]

13 hours ago, askandanswer said:

This is an issue that puzzles me. My understanding is that God's gift of the land of Israel to the Jews was heavily dependent on a number of important conditions as set out in the Law of Moses. The Jews abandoned some of the central aspects of that law more than a thousand years ago and they have been practicing a false religion, worshipping an incorrect concept of God for even longer. Practicing a false religion or practicing a religion falsely was a contributing factor to the Jews losing the land under the Babylonian exile. In more recent times I would have thought that the Jews abandonment of the conditions on which the gift was made meant that the promise was no longer in place, in much the same way that the Jaredites and Nephites also lost the lands that had been conditionally given to them. Without that claim of divine entitlement, Jewish claims on the land of Israel are no weaker or stronger than other groups occupying that land.

I have no doubt that God gave the land of Israel to the Jews. I am confident that that gift was conditional. I don't believe the Jews have abided by those conditions. So, as stated in the fine print of the deal between God and Moses, failure to meet the conditions on which the gift was given has led to the deal being revoked and the deal is now off. That doesn't mean that the Jews have no right to that land. But I think it means that they can't claim a divine right. 

The are also prophecies (Isaiah, Book of Mormon) that promise a future fulfilment of these promises and the land of inheritance for the remnants on conditions of repentance. I can understand a divinely inspired motivation to gather, but also the ease with which the efforts, and unfortunately the desire (ambition) are corrupted when performed without the necessary light of prophetic keys.

[prisonchaplain]

14 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I have no doubt that God gave the land of Israel to the Jews. I am confident that that gift was conditional. I don't believe the Jews have abided by those conditions. So, as stated in the fine print of the deal between God and Moses, failure to meet the conditions on which the gift was given has led to the deal being revoked and the deal is now off. That doesn't mean that the Jews have no right to that land. But I think it means that they can't claim a divine right. 

This is the gist of the Replacement Theology argument: The Jewish people broke the "If my people..." conditions and so inherited the "If my people do not ..." warnings. Thus, God replaced the Jews with the Christian church. 

My difficulty with this approach is that we have all failed God. Jesus forgives 70X7. The cycle throughout the Old Testament was of sin (whoring after false gods--not just corrupt Judaism, but full-on Paganism), repentance, forgiveness, blessing, and gradual drifting away. Every time they came back, God forgave them. His covenant remains.

Every time I repent, likewise, God embraces his prodigal son. We need the Old Testament largely because it reminds us that as undependable as we are, God remains true to His word.