Newest Apostle

[mrmarklin]

On 12/15/2023 at 6:46 AM, JohnsonJones said:

I know Gong is considered a PoC, but is Soares really a PoC?

Everyone knows that US Asians are "white adjacent".  For all practical purposes Gong is a White Guy.😎

[LDSGator]

On 12/15/2023 at 4:42 PM, zil2 said:

Splitting hairs.  Whatever you intended, if you didn't know it, your words sounded like, "go find another church".  If you didn't intend to say that, just know that that's how it read and consider that going forward.  If you did, sorry, but you were in the wrong to do so.

There is an odd dichotomy that I see in the church sometimes. Members (some) complain that no one works in their callings, no one shows up to clean the church, no one shows up to church-yet sometimes members look for reasons to exclude others or alienate them.
 

That’s fine, you are free to do what you wish, and of course the church has every right to tell people to take a hike. Just don’t whine when people take you up on your offer and you never see them again. 
 

Also, if you begin to exclude others for this or that reason, a reasonable man could come to the conclusion that you’ll look for reasons to exclude me too. Even if I look the same and think the same. 

Edited December 17, 2023 by LDSGator

[LDSGator]

Slightly off topic-what @zil2 said is very true for those who already have an established community and circle of friends. If you don’t gel with the local ward (or LDS  culture in general) and you get your social needs met elsewhere, it becomes incredibly hard to participate in your local ward. Even if you believe in all the teachings!  
 

While it would be naive to think you’ll become bff’s with everyone in your ward, you absolutely need someone in there to connect with. Don’t ever doubt the social aspect of church. 

Edited December 17, 2023 by LDSGator

[Ironhold]

12 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

We will have to disagree on this.  I know many Germans.  I have been in their homes and interacted on many social occasions.  These (my friends) are not LDS people.

German society is stratified.  I don't have time to examine the examples you posit above, but you can trust me in this.  It's not obvious to an outsider.  And wasn't to me for many years.

As an MBA and thus an academic... that's not how this works. 

If you bring an argument, you need to provide evidence and work with contradictory evidence. 

[Grunt]

7 hours ago, Ironhold said:

As an MBA and thus an academic... that's not how this works. 

If you bring an argument, you need to provide evidence and work with contradictory evidence. 

Wait.....having an MBA makes me an academic?  Hot diggity dog!

[NeuroTypical]

8 hours ago, Ironhold said:

As an MBA and thus an academic... that's not how this works. 

If you bring an argument, you need to provide evidence and work with contradictory evidence. 

I would have gone with "You can assert whatever you want to assert until you're blue in the face.  But if you want to persuade, you'll have to give us something more than that."

[JohnsonJones]

21 hours ago, Ironhold said:

As an MBA and thus an academic... that's not how this works. 

If you bring an argument, you need to provide evidence and work with contradictory evidence. 

I am somewhat familiar with the German way of life.

I'm not absolutely certain at which angle he is coming from, but there are MULTIPLE ways that his statement is actually accurate.

One of the easiest to point out is how the education system works in Germany (and much of Europe).  Education and higher education does NOT work like it does in the United States.  You are sorted into (at least) three different groups.  This differentiation will determine what you will be able to do in the future, how much education you will get, how much pay you might be able to expect, and much more.

In order to be a Pilot and a VP at an airline, Uchtdorf would have HAD to be placed in the highest tier.  This allows one to go to a University and get a University education.  Education is FREE, but only to those that Germany grants that education to.

The lower tier would be those who would be deemed in the US to be worthy of Blue Collar work.  This is where your tradesmen (but many times, not their white collar office workers who tell them where to go) come from. 

Finally, at the lowest tier, you will find those who are deemed unable to really be educated.  They will be taught the basics of life and be reliant upon the state for all their needs for the rest of their life generally, unless they somehow miraculously break out of that role.

This placement sort of determines where you are going to be considered in life and what jobs will consider you.  You can get into the highest tier if you have really good test scores, your relatives have really good connections, or you have a really good reputation to overrule everything else.  Uchtdorf would probably have had to come from this class of individuals or he came outside the system (Such as from the US, his biography doesn't indicate that he came from outside the system).

I have relatives that moved from Germany to avoid this classification of their children as they wanted them all to have the freedom to choose to go to college if they wanted to. 

Edited December 18, 2023 by JohnsonJones

[LDSGator]

6 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

One of the easiest to point out is how the education system works in Germany

@JohnsonJones-I know nothing about the European educational system, but I’ve heard they are much more “harsh” than we are in the states. No room for “incomplete” and no mercy for those struggling in classes or having personal trouble. Is that true or have I been misinformed?  

Edited December 18, 2023 by LDSGator

[Ironhold]

On 12/17/2023 at 3:18 PM, NeuroTypical said:

I would have gone with "You can assert whatever you want to assert until you're blue in the face.  But if you want to persuade, you'll have to give us something more than that."

Remember, I've spent a fair bit of time dealing with people who saw their degrees as shields of invulnerability. 

They either forgot or never understood that you have to actually back yourself up, and the notion of "evolve or die" has never once crossed their mind. They might occasionally attempt "publish or perish" if so required, but then you have to watch for dodgy work if your brain can withstand the sheer onslaught of how awful the whole assemblage tends to be (like a recent Ohio State University paper about the "attack helicopter" meme that actually spiked my blood pressure...). 

It's to the point now that you have academics who make their careers challenging other academics and investigating academic misconduct. If you're on Twitter or YouTube, one of the more prominent such individuals goes by the handle "Aydin Paladin". She's managed to ruffle feathers the way I used to back when I was more active in doing apologetics work. 

[mrmarklin]

Mr Jones, the education system segregates people in Germany and is difficult to overcome.  But it's more than that.  I belong to an international oriented organization here in the US.  We welcome all comers.  But a German born member remarked to me that our club would be impossible in Germany.  There would be two clubs--one for people of a certain social status and another for a lesser social status.

And BTW, if you come from a high social status, you WILL pass the test that can allow a university education.😉

[mrmarklin]

On 12/17/2023 at 5:17 AM, Ironhold said:

As an MBA and thus an academic... that's not how this works. 

If you bring an argument, you need to provide evidence and work with contradictory evidence. 

I haven't seen contrary evidence......

[Ironhold]

3 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

I haven't seen contrary evidence......

We kinda need more than just a basic claim...

[Just_A_Guy]

5 hours ago, Ironhold said:

We kinda need more than just a basic claim...

And for the sake of context, I believe the "basic claim" here is that Uchtdorf is "privileged"--notwithstanding his having grown up in Hitler's Germany with a father who was a non-Nazi bureaucrat, being evicted from Czechoslovakia into eastern Germany, starving in postwar Germany with the rest of his countrymen, living under occupation by Soviet troops, then ultimately having to flee east Germany because his dad was an anti-communist. 

But we know that Uchtdorf made it into the (barely-one-year-old at the time) German Air Force, which (we are to conclude) means: 

• He was privileged (because if you didn't have connections you couldn't make it *anywhere* in mid-20th-century Germany) (except the chancellery, multiple times);
• His rise from destitution to prosperity had nothing--nothing!--to do with his own efforts, qualities, or anything else that might support the idea of meritocracy (because as we all know, German culture absolutely values caste, charisma, and the ability to schmooze at the expense of competence, efficiency, and skill); and
• Most germane to this discussion:  White™ Dieter simply has no idea how hard or cruel life can be; and his apostleship would have been better conferred upon some hirsute womanizing tent-dweller in Portland or some "From The River To The Sea!"-gibbering student in London; either of whom would have had the wisdom and passion to funnel the Church's vast resources towards the cronies causes  that rightfully deserve them.  

[zil2]

When I grow up, I want to be half as good as @Just_A_Guy at presenting my case.

[mikbone]

57 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

White™ Dieter

🤣 

[JohnsonJones]

7 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

And for the sake of context, I believe the "basic claim" here is that Uchtdorf is "privileged"--notwithstanding his having grown up in Hitler's Germany with a father who was a non-Nazi bureaucrat, being evicted from Czechoslovakia into eastern Germany, starving in postwar Germany with the rest of his countrymen, living under occupation by Soviet troops, then ultimately having to flee east Germany because his dad was an anti-communist. 

But we know that Uchtdorf made it into the (barely-one-year-old at the time) German Air Force, which (we are to conclude) means: 

• He was privileged (because if you didn't have connections you couldn't make it *anywhere* in mid-20th-century Germany) (except the chancellery, multiple times);
• His rise from destitution to prosperity had nothing--nothing!--to do with his own efforts, qualities, or anything else that might support the idea of meritocracy (because as we all know, German culture absolutely values caste, charisma, and the ability to schmooze at the expense of competence, efficiency, and skill); and
• Most germane to this discussion:  White™ Dieter simply has no idea how hard or cruel life can be; and his apostleship would have been better conferred upon some hirsute womanizing tent-dweller in Portland or some "From The River To The Sea!"-gibbering student in London; either of whom would have had the wisdom and passion to funnel the Church's vast resources towards the cronies causes  that rightfully deserve them.  

Before I being, I will point out that there is a great deal of sarcasm to follow...

1.  Germany is NOT the U.S., though many want to think it's the same.  That said, you have a strange idea of what makes one lower class.  For example, I know of an individual who's father was only a Lowly shoe salesman.  How could such an individual with a father who struggles to sell shoes from such as small shop be from anything other than a lower class.  I mean...adidas is such a SMALL company in the world!

You used the Second Chancellor as an example.  This business was big enough to have executives and branches, but yet, as per you, was just a lowly store (much like adidas is a lowly shoe selling place).

If it WASN'T for his father and the situation of such, he probably would have had more problems being an "unemployed" academic for 3 years (at which time he also was, in theory also an executive in his father's company).  Such a destitute and poor world it was, such a lowly class of poverty and struggle there.

Kiesinger is a bit of a different duck as he gained his "privilege" before World War 2 and the changes to Germany (among which is where it became East and West Germany.  It does not appear he was starving during the Wiemar Republic).  He DID get the privileges of being a Nazi (and all that this entailed in gains above those who were not part of the Nazi party) early on.  He became a Nazi in 1933.  This was prior to him even graduating with a degree in Law.  Such a terrible lowly thing to have everything provided when people were starving in Germany in the late 1920s.  Surely that shows how far down on the totem pole he was in class.  Then, to go to College and be a Nazi where he had to watch those in higher classes gain such great things such as losing all their property, being sent to camps and such while he had to suffer by seeing others in his class get their stuff!

Then, with such terrible connections he avoided being conscripted to arms in the War during 1940 because he was able to obtain a position in broadcasting where, because he had such horrendous opportunities he became deputy head of the department and liason to the department of Propaganda.

Luckily, his loyalty to Hitler and high position in the Nazi party during those times gave him no advantages, if I understand what you wrote correctly?

I DO find it interesting you chose to highlight him (the third chancellor) as he is considered HIGHLY controversial at times (which I've hinted at strongly, but won't go into detail as that is a MUCH LONGER discussion) as an example of one who had low privileges. 

I would actually have thought that it was due to his ability to divorce himself from what he did in his past and justify how he actually avoided supporting the Nazi's (despite close ties to the Office of Propaganda) as well as the close connections he had to certain individuals of the time is a prime example of how one in a certain social status can use those advantages to their ability to obtain power...but...as long as we are being sarcastic on these things...

Such a hard struggle coming from such a place!

2.  Germany has a great social mobility in some areas.  I would not refute the idea that Uchtdorf had lowly origins in regards to what we see in the United States.  One reason he is a member is due to his grandmother standing in line to try to get food after World War 2. 

When one struggles with poverty, it is impossible to be part of anything but lower class.

I know a prime example that comes from our United States history.  It's a PRIME example of how poverty forces one to remain in the lower class and never grants any privileges to their children.

This person was in the United States as an Irish Catholic.  At this time there was a massive amount of prejudice and discrimination against Irish Catholics.  In the early 1900s this individual worked hard and managed to get into Harvard, only to find out that discrimination there was alive and well.  A little depressed at how classism worked he swore that he would become a successful businessman and show the others that he could succeed.  He swore he would make a million dollars (being 20-30 million in today's dollars) by the time he was in his mid 30s. 

This wasn't helped that he ended up having 9 children which he also had to try to support.  However, luck struck and his father started to have success in local politics, with many of the Irish Catholics in the surrounding area also supporting their rise to power.  Joseph actually succeeded in his goals despite these challenges and even better, massively exceeded them. 

One of his children, Jack, was raised during this time period but suffered dearly.  Because of the time and the situation, this son was regularly sick having measles, whooping cough, and then...what was at the time deadly...scarlet fever.  The young boy survived and grew with the family.  This boy would grow up to show that no matter what the prejudice, one can gain positions and power.

This young boy's name...John F. Kennedy.

So you see, this is an example that one who has a family that struggles at some point can never have any privilege at all.  John F. Kennedy became President without any connections, help, or advantages because, as you put it, once in poverty...always in poverty????

Now, as seen, Germany is NOT the United States.  However, I would expect someone who was a Vice President in an Airlines would have no privilege and, despite making a LARGE amount of money, also still be in poverty and in the lower class in Germany...if I understand what you are phrasing and how you are phrasing it?

3. I have had a LOT of sarcasm in my above posts.  On this point, I'm not going to use any sarcasm.   I've tried to offer the opposite view you presented in the points above to show an alternate take on the same thoughts.  This is one I just can't do it.  I don't have the spirit.  I can't malign Uchtdorf just to make a point.  That's just too far from how I feel that I just can't do it on this point. 

Elder Uchtdorf was a brilliant pilot.  He worked hard.  Whether he had advantages in getting there or not, it was ultimately his hardwork and talent that enabled him to become the head of his class in the military and gain better positions at Lufthansa. 

He has been part of the Upper class in Germany for many decades.  That said, I have often felt that he has great empathy for others including those who are poor and destitute.  He has great sympathies for those who are disabled and suffering.  He is a wonderful person and I can't reduce my own opinions of the man to squabble about such a thing.

The general point I think was representation.  It was how people and members in the Church feel represented.  I think I already posted a view of this in the 12th post of the first page of this topic in my "Counter" and how this actually is.

The apostles are divinely approved and are divinely appointed to lead our church through revelation and the Lord's guidance

So, though I will still stand by the point that Germany is NOT the United States (and Brazil is not either), and both have different systems and ways of evaluating class, position, and other hierarchical ideas, I have already presented that I think our General Authorities and Church leaders are Led by the Lord and it is the Lord who leads our church.
 

Edited December 19, 2023 by JohnsonJones
Clarity

[Carborendum]

9 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

hirsute

You've just improved my vocabulary.

[EH12NG]

On 12/13/2023 at 10:12 PM, mrmarklin said:

"As a senior leader of the Church, Elder Kearon will serve under the direction of the First Presidency and lead a growing, global Latter-day Saint membership of more than 17 million people who speak more than 180 languages."

 

I'm sure Elder Kearon is a good man.  But reflecting on the above sentence in the Church News, I think a nod to the vast membership of the church in other countries, for a leadership post such as this, would have been a better choice.  Elder Kearon is just another upper middle class White guy, that only can ever partially understand the problems of the majority of Saints who live outside the US.

 

Is there no one else ready????.

I welcome the question and would have relished the discussion had i been here earlier, however I don't think it wise to reference anyone's colour. We should be beyond this although, I understand the point you are trying to make. I apologise for some of the unbecoming tone and remarks in this thread. Very sour in places. 

[Traveler]

Some observations.  But before we begin, I want to dispel the notion, equal pay for equal work.  My opinion – regardless of the profession, craft or expertise – take at random ten from the field.  It does not matter if the field is toilet cleaners, childcare, doctors, engineers, educators, public servants, professional athlete or whatever – the difference between the best of that category of 10 and the worst of that category of 10 will be remarkable and astonishing.  The best can be worth many times what the worst demands.   However, the actual pay to such will be equally astonishing – so strange that there are occasions when the lest competent makes more than those better.

Observation one: Our educational system is declining – I believe by whatever standard you pick.  True, that there may be some exceptions, but I believe the exceptions are also declining.  I do not believe this is a recent trend.  I believe that things like “Leave no child behind” has made things worse.  Why, because, I believe that education should cater to the best and brightest (most motivated) learners.  I believe that our educational system has been dumbed down to the most challenged or problematic of our learners and/or their parents.  Especially in our public schools.   I am of the opinion that there are many reforms needed for our educational system but that the federal government’s involvement in education hinders (prohibits) any reforms from taking place from the local level.

Observation two:  The workplace reflects many of the same problems of the educational system.  It can be impossible to fire an incompetent or problematic worker – especially if they are a “protected minority”.  Also, but perhaps not so strange, is that when a company is having problems and announces a lay off – it is not uncommon for the best and brightest of their workers to decide to leave on their own.  Why?  Because most smart employees learn very quickly that it is much better to work for a company that makes money than one that is losing money.  The same is true for management (which is almost always why a company is losing money) – very few of the highly productive and intelligent employees that do the work want to work for or under idiots.  Simply put, it is not worth the hassle.

Observation three:  There is in the USA a chronic disconnect between our educational system and our work force needs.  I believe this is true across the entire spectrum of K-12.  I believe we have gone too far with our child labor laws to the point that our children are growing up void of any preparatory inclinations to be productive as individuals or collectively as a new generation.  It is not a scientific sample but I am still concerned that I talk to very few youth finishing high school that have any idea what they want to do with their life – let alone what is necessary to accomplish it.  Few (if any) even know how to balance (control) their own finances.  I have not talked to any youth that plan to pay for their own church mission or advanced education.  It is astonishing to me that kids are thinking they will go to college with no idea what profession they intend to pursue.

I was taught in my youth that the absence of a plan to succeed is the perfect plan to fail.   I am wondering if I am still existing on the same planet upon which I was born.

 

The Traveler

[Carborendum]

7 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I was taught in my youth that the absence of a plan to succeed is the perfect plan to fail.

In reality, what we see is a perfect plan to fail that was sold to the public as a plan to go into a world of fairy tales.

[Just_A_Guy]

On 12/19/2023 at 6:25 AM, Carborendum said:

You've just improved my vocabulary.

I was privileged (ulp!  There’s that word again) to have a 10th grade English teacher who insisted on giving us weekly vocabulary lists (and, thereafter, tests) of really obscure words.  That was one of them.  

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I was privileged (ulp!  There’s that word again) to have a 10th grade English teacher who insisted on giving us weekly vocabulary lists (and, thereafter, tests) of really obscure words.  That was one of them.  

Interesting.  I had a 10th grade English teacher who had a list of 1600 words taken from the literary classics which we were to read throughout the year. 

At the time, I thought they were big time words.  But over the years, I heard them all over the place.  Yet I'm surprised at how many people either don't know these words or use them incorrectly.

"Hirsute" was brand new to me.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Carborendum

[zil2]

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

But over the years, I heared them all over the place.

You heared them, did you?

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

There is in the USA a chronic disconnect between our educational system and our work force needs. 

This may not be directly what you were talking about specifically, but...  I have an opportunity to take a position in a company that designs nuclear power plants.

It would be a huge feather in my cap.  I've never been in that space before.  I found out why.  For many decades, those in that field became nuclear engineers because they were already in the field.  As you can guess, that meant that no one was coming into the field and the attrition rate was as rapid as the aging population.

Now, they're looking at the entire field who is ready to retire.  So, they are willing to take outsiders who look promising.  I'm one of them.

While discussing options with my wife an interesting point came up.  Many people are growing up learning that 2+2 does not necessarily = 4.  Can we really trust the rising generation of engineering students?  If not them, whom?  

Even if the other job would be a better idea for me personally, I am considering this position for the future of the nuclear industry because I believe it will always be a necessary part of our power grid.

I haven't worked with a newbie in many years.  I really don't know if any of the new kids actually understand engineering.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Carborendum

[Carborendum]

2 minutes ago, zil2 said:

You heared them, did you?

Yes, ma'am!  I heared them good, alright!

Edited December 20, 2023 by Carborendum