Divine Currency and Economy

[Traveler]

Recently I was having a discussion with my brother, and he introduced to me an idea that I had not thought much about – divine currency.   Because currency is closely associated with the economy – I thought defining economy would be a good place to start.  Among the definitions of economy – I would project that economy is, in essence, the practices, discourses and expressions associated with the production, use and management of resources (copied from Wikipedia).   The word from scripture that seems to deal with G-d and his overseeing of resources is, in scripture, the term “Glory”.

In the councils of our pre-existence, it seems that the focus of Lucifer was on two principles or things.  One was the empowering of individuals with agency (Lucifer strongly opposed this) and the second was that Lucifer wanted G-d’s glory.  I have understood that Lucifer intended to utilize G-d’s glory to take over heaven and place himself as the supreme Suzerain of the Kingdom of Heaven.  With G-d’s glory Lucifer would oversee, manage and control all the resources of the universe – both physical and spiritual.

Here in mortality and on earth – our currency (wealth) is associated only with physical stuff like silver and gold.  But silver and gold is such a limited commodity that we use the glory of our government to print and distribute dollars – which are guaranteed by our government rather than actual gold and silver.  If our government loses its glory the money will be worthless.   It would seem that anyone with unlimited access to dollars has the ability (power) to do purty much whatever they want.

I am still in the process of thinking this through – any input would be appreciated.  Anyone willing to discuss with me and deal with questions would make me very happy.  If you have better ideas – it would be better than gold.

 

The Traveler

[mikbone]

Lucifer did not under basic glory & honor economics.  Glory and honor cannot be given away.  It can only be earned.

And curiously when Jehovah said the glory be thine.  It seems like Jehovah thought that He was going to vector all the glory to the father.  But it don't work that way.  The glory that Jehovah accrued was multiplied and shared with his Father.  

Moses 4:1-2

It’s like being given a $100,000 dollar samurai sword - without any training or experience.  That person would be more likely to hurt themselves then do any harm to an opponent.

And a true warrior would be deadly with a wooden spork.

 

[zil2]

Earth's economy is driven by limitation - without limitation, things are seen as having no value.  The things of heaven (aka the things of God) know no limits, only increase: God gives us knowledge and now that knowledge has increased.  God teaches us to love, and now there is more love.  The same with all virtues, God shares them by offering them to us and teaching us to embrace them and they increase.

The phrase "economy of heaven" as used in many a General Conference talk seems to equate to "efficiency of heaven" and also "rules of interaction" or "who should be doing what".

[mikbone]

Moses 1:3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?

4 And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease.

Also hymn 284 If you could hie to Kolob

Endless commodities are an interesting concept.

[Carborendum]

10 hours ago, Traveler said:

Recently I was having a discussion with my brother, and he introduced to me an idea that I had not thought much about – divine currency.

If you have better ideas – it would be better than gold.

I'm not sure if this is what you had in mind.  But it is related and has been weighing on my mind.

About 6 months ago, we accepted a young adult into our home because she had no place to go.  Her parents had kicked her out.  And by all accounts, they were abusive.  She was very damaged by all that happened.

Since she's been living with us she has eased up a bit and found herself.  The problem is... "herself" is not someone that has it together.  She's not grateful.  She's not humble.  She is not responsible.

While my wife has tried to work with her on the emotional/social side, I'm trying to teach her financial literacy.  My kids have actually been instrumental in helping her on the spiritual side (mind you, she is nominally LDS).  Unfortunately, all of our efforts have been in vain.

It seems that due to all the gaslighting she experienced in her family, she developed the self-defense mechanism of giving a knee-jerk reaction to any new information with "Well, that is not true for me because..."  Needless to say, we have made zero progress with her from making any changes to her decision making or behaviors.

*******************

Now, I am trying to avoid blasphemy here.  But the following stark comparison has been on my mind.  And it involves a situation where I would be "the Lord" in this parable.

When we took her into our home.  We had it in our minds to possibly adopt her.  But we'd have to see how things go.  How would she fit into our family in the long run?  Is she willing to be part of our family.

To help her out, I bought her a beater so she could get to and from work.  The agreement was that she would pay me back over the course of 6 months.  With her salary, she should be able to pay me back in three or four months.  The deal was that all the payments would be considered "rent" until she pays it off fully.  Then I would sign the car over to her.  And it would be hers.

Fast forward.

She has skipped a few months payment.  She now still owes me about $1800.  She is scheduled to leave for her own apartment at the end of June.  By then she will owe me about $2000 because we agreed that I'd begin to charge a small amount of rent ($100/mo) beginning in April.  She said that she felt she had to leave around now because "Carb is going to start taking my money."  As you can imagine, I found that disturbing on several levels.

Because she has been a less than stellar worker, her boss reduced her hours.  So, she is now making much less money.  There is no way she can pay me back anymore.

She wants to move into an apartment with a friend of hers.  But she's "having trouble getting the deposit together because I'm giving all my money to Carb."  Note; She hasn't paid me a penny in two months.

I'm now expecting that she will have to take all the money and put the deposit down on the apartment and leave without paying me back.

I'm probably not going to make much of an objection.  But I feel like I'll have to point out a few things.

• We invited her into our home and wanted to adopt her after a testing period.  But she never wanted to learn what it was to be a part of our family.  This would include making her an heir to my estate when I died.  But she didn't do the things we did.  She didn't learn the things we learned.  She didn't accept the principles which we believed.  She wanted a posh life without taking on the responsibilities of that life.
• Instead of paying $100 rent (because I was "taking" her money) she CHOSE to pay $700/mo for half rental on an apartment.
• Her parents stole $2000+ of her money.  She is now defaulting on her obligation to me for $2000.  The thing is that I knew this was a possible eventuality.  And I was prepared to take the hit if it came down to it.  So, I'm going to forgive her the debt.  She can no longer blame her financial woes on her parents' mistreatment.  I've paid their debt to her.  She now has her own life to live and cannot blame anyone for the choices she makes.
• When she realized what was happening financially, she never bothered to come to me and ask for a different deal or schedule or anything that might make it more financially feasible for her to pay me back.  She just chose to bad-mouth me to my children.  So, she's going to blame me for all her financial woes.
• She made nearly $20,000 last year and has nothing to show for it because she spent it all despite having no expenses other than her phone and gas for the car.  She spent it on frivolous living.

The parallels with her irresponsibility with money vs our irresponsibility with "glory" (as you - Traveler-  put it) is really clear in my mind.

• The Lord wants us to inherit all He has.  We want that posh life.  But we often are not willing to learn and do what it takes to get there.
• Often times, we think the Lord expects too much of us. But what we choose to do instead will be even harder.  In fact, it is impossible.  (c.f. C.S. Lewis wheat, grass, egg)
• We have been wronged by so many parties.  But the Lord has paid the debt so that all things are equal.  We can't blame any of our bad choices on what wrongs we've been subject to in our lives.  The Lord has cleared it all and given us a fresh start.
• We spend way too much time trying to justify, or cry foul, or simply denying, instead of going to the Lord and asking for forgiveness.  We need to ask him to lift us up.  But many of us tend to now blame the Lord for all our problems as if they just came out of thin air.
• We have so many blessings which we squander like the prodigal son.  We could have done so much with our time, talents, and everything that the Lord has blessed us with.  But we choose to waste it all far too often.

I don't like losing $2000.  And it hurts.  But I'd be glad to pay it, if it meant that she would turn around and figure things out, and begin to live a happy life with no exuses.  I just want her to learn correct principles and live a happy life.  I'll gladly set things up so that she has no excuses.  But she is just continuing to make bad choices because she has never accepted the lessons we tried to teach her.

The primary principle behind economics is not the currency.  In the end, "economics" is the science of "making choices."

Edited May 9 by Carborendum

[mikbone]

Im also impressed to consider all the parables that deal with currency and wages.

And Mosiah 2 wherein King Benjamin states that we are all unprofitable servants.

Edited May 9 by mikbone

[NeuroTypical]

Humans have always lived in scarcity.  Humans have developed many ways to deal with scarcity.  Historically, there have been two always-present methods:
- Grab a club and maybe some bros and go take what the other humans have. 
- Grab your black clothing and kidnap the other humans' women, and ransom them back for stuff you want.

A thing called "civilization" brought some new options.  Some still involved force and the threat of force, but others did not:
- Use manipulation and leverage to get others to give you what you want.
- Barter and trade.  When you have something they want, and they have something you want, make an exchange.
- Use some sort of agreed upon medium of exchange that represents a mutually held belief regarding value.  Mediums of exchange include precious minerals, the cows in Johnny Lingo's village, and currency.  And bitcoin.

An interesting truth that I believe is correct: If there's no scarcity, there's no currency.  

So in the eternities, what's scarce?  God's glory?  Knowledge?  New jokes with funny punchlines nobody ever thought of before?  The materials needed for eternal increase?  

StarTrek tells us a lot of worlds have reached some sort of utopia where money is no longer needed.  Energy was so cheap it was essentially free, and there's a magic box called a replicator that can make anything.  Eventually, they had to build the idea of scarcity back into the ST universe.  And the currency used there is "gold-pressed latinum".  Something with inherent value, that a replicator can't make.  

SciFi/Fantasy tells me that whatever gods or deities are there, value things like a good story, or an act of heroism, or art.

Edited May 9 by NeuroTypical

[Carborendum]

2 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

So in the eternities, what's scarce?  God's glory?  Knowledge?  New jokes with funny punchlines nobody ever thought of before?  The materials needed for eternal increase?  

Jokes, yes.  Definitely jokes.  

No, the scarce thing is souls who are willing to live the Celestial Law.

Thus the only currency, the only true sacrifice we can give the Lord is our broken heart and contrite spirit.

[mikbone]

I’ve mused that physical matter is different than spiritual matter because it is bound by an uncertainty principle.  This principle generates unexpected outcomes.  And a small percentages of unexpected outcomes have value.

It’s possible that something like soy sauce, kimchi, paella, maple syrup, or bacon pecan pie is the kind of currency that makes Earth valuable.

Perhaps it’s the Star Wars saga.  But then again, I hope than the lightsaber is a common elegant weapon that Celestials employ.  Perhaps George Lucas’ story was inspired.

And if there are an infinite amount of ‘Earths’ then the art, cultures, cookbooks, etc. available in heavenly libraries must be extensive.

Can’t wait to get my hands on an Urim and Thummin. D&C 130: 10-11

 

Another good reason to shoot for the Celestial Kingdom instead of a lesser kingdom.  

Can’t imagine using imitation maple corn syrup on crappy pancakes for the rest of eternity.   Talk about hell…

Edited May 10 by mikbone

[Traveler]

Thank you all for your input.  I expected more negative comments – but let me proceed with things so far.  I am thinking that the really rich and wealthy of eternity are the more glorious.  In section 11 of the D&C we are told that “he that hath eternal life is rich.”  It is my understanding that the reference to “eternal life” is not the resurrected immortal living for ever but rather those that are Celestial.  That eternal is a reference to our eternal Father – so it is a life like his.  This is a way of saying that Celestial beings are rich.

But the Celestial way of thinking is not about hording one’s wealth.  My impression that is Lucifer’s reason for wanting Glory.  Rather the Celestial rich dedicate all their wealth for the benefit of others.  I thought about this for a while, and I do not think that Celestial individuals only care about those that are Celestial.  They help the poor.  That would mean that they maintain those of lessor or no Glory.

Because of the attitudes of Satan towards the Father and the Son – it is my impression that he is very jealous and covetous of their wealth (Glory).  But because he is fully dependent upon the grace and kindness of those that are Celestial – he is forced to be obedient to their commands.  I have wondered why Satan obeys the Father and Son – even though reluctantly.   He and all that are not Celestial have no choice.

Perhaps this can give insights into the war in heaven.  Since there was no pain, suffering or even death – what then would be the weapons.  What would be the chains that would bind the wicked.  A couple of ideas here.  First – wickedness would not be defined by what someone does to others – because there is nothing they could do to harm others.  Wickedness would be the harm that they do to themselves.  The only harm that they could do to themselves is refuse to be obedient to the laws, ordinances and covenants – especially the Celestial laws, ordinances and covenants.  Their acts of war would be to attempt to convince others to be disobedient to the laws, ordinances and covenants.   The scripture descriptions of this is to tempt others to become miserable like unto them.

The second idea is that righteous would be defined as someone that is obedient to the laws, ordinances and covenants.  Therefore, the weapons of the Celestial or righteous in fighting the eternal war between good and evil – is the light of truth.  This is why the war in heaven is still being fought and what is the means of the fighting.  This means that repentance is not so much about getting past or forgiven of sin as it is about embracing light and truth and being obedient to the laws, ordinances and covenants.

We have had some discussion on this forum about the one and only true Church.  This is why believing in the one and only true G-d involves one faith, one hope and one baptism.   This is why the Saints of G-d are willing to do the work in the temples for the dead – despite that many of those that died without the law, ordinances and covenants will remain in their wickedness by the exercise of their agency.  It is the kind of thing that divine Celestial beings do with their riches.

Thanks for reading – and for input.

 

The Traveler

[ZealoulyStriving]

6 minutes ago, Traveler said:

But the Celestial way of thinking is not about hording one’s wealth.  My impression that is Lucifer’s reason for wanting Glory.  Rather the Celestial rich dedicate all their wealth for the benefit of others.  I thought about this for a while, and I do not think that Celestial individuals only care about those that are Celestial.  They help the poor.  That would mean that they maintain those of lessor or no Glory.

Agreed:

"39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." (Moses 1)

[Traveler]

33 minutes ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

Agreed:

"39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." (Moses 1)

Quoting from my personal scripture concerning Satan:  “For behold this is the work and glory of Satan – to bring to pass the immorality and infernal life of man”.

 

The Traveler

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I expected more negative comments

I wouldn't want you to be disappointed, so here you go:

comment * -1

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

there is nothing they could do to harm others

Physically, no, but emotionally, yes, and spiritually:

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

to attempt to convince others to be disobedient to the laws, ordinances and covenants.   The scripture descriptions of this is to tempt others to become miserable like unto them.

I mean, sure, in the end, one chooses whom to follow, but I'd say the tempter does harm, and the wicked bring sorrow to the righteous.

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, zil2 said:

Physically, no, but emotionally, yes, and spiritually:

 

Can you give me an example (since we are thinking of the pre-existence) it may have to be theoretical. 

Quote

I mean, sure, in the end, one chooses whom to follow, but I'd say the tempter does harm, and the wicked bring sorrow to the righteous.

I am a little confused - I am under the impression that following the path of righteousness brings lasting (eternal) joy.  The sorrow for the wicked is unfulling and benefits no one - so it is temporary and unsustained.

 

The Traveler

[zil2]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

Can you give me an example (since we are thinking of the pre-existence) it may have to be theoretical. 

I am a little confused - I am under the impression that following the path of righteousness brings lasting (eternal) joy.  The sorrow for the wicked is unfulling and benefits no one - so it is temporary and unsustained.

You said "could do no harm" - no harm means none, zero.  I submit that the emotional harm done is greater than none, that the spiritual harm done is greater than none.  For an example, and I see no reason why the pre-mortal weeping should have been any different, please re-read Moses 7:28-40.

Whether it's the righteous weeping for the loss of those who chose wickedness, or the misery of those who chose wickedness through the temptations of others, either way, we have more harm than none, regardless of whether it's temporary or eternal.

[CV75]

On 5/9/2024 at 12:10 AM, Traveler said:

Recently I was having a discussion with my brother, and he introduced to me an idea that I had not thought much about – divine currency.   Because currency is closely associated with the economy – I thought defining economy would be a good place to start.  Among the definitions of economy – I would project that economy is, in essence, the practices, discourses and expressions associated with the production, use and management of resources (copied from Wikipedia).   The word from scripture that seems to deal with G-d and his overseeing of resources is, in scripture, the term “Glory”.

In the councils of our pre-existence, it seems that the focus of Lucifer was on two principles or things.  One was the empowering of individuals with agency (Lucifer strongly opposed this) and the second was that Lucifer wanted G-d’s glory.  I have understood that Lucifer intended to utilize G-d’s glory to take over heaven and place himself as the supreme Suzerain of the Kingdom of Heaven.  With G-d’s glory Lucifer would oversee, manage and control all the resources of the universe – both physical and spiritual.

Here in mortality and on earth – our currency (wealth) is associated only with physical stuff like silver and gold.  But silver and gold is such a limited commodity that we use the glory of our government to print and distribute dollars – which are guaranteed by our government rather than actual gold and silver.  If our government loses its glory the money will be worthless.   It would seem that anyone with unlimited access to dollars has the ability (power) to do purty much whatever they want.

I am still in the process of thinking this through – any input would be appreciated.  Anyone willing to discuss with me and deal with questions would make me very happy.  If you have better ideas – it would be better than gold.

 

The Traveler

I think currency (in this case money, which is one possible representation of one aspect of wealth) and wealth (the abundance of all good things both material and spiritual – the Book of Mormon’s description of “prosper”) are two different things. Money is one of several means to an end, not al of which are good, and which is not necessarily wealth (there are many interim steps to and versions of that), but when it is the means and used right, wealth is the ideal destination. Currency is transactional (exchange, payment, etc.) in its operation, and wealth is relational (covenants, love, creation, service and redemption, continuation, etc.). I think Jacob 2:17-19 reflects this.

I don’t think money is used in heaven, but instead records, accessed by or contained in the white stone and the Earth as a Urim and Thummim, replace it. Using the definition you provided for “economy,” I would say the divine resources are the divine attributes of God (maximal intelligence, light, knowledge, etc.). He governs Himself and invites and shows the way for others to do the same, and to do the same as one -- i.e., the first and second commandments. The material resources He acts upon, including the elements of His body, are not divine, but they can certainly be filled with His glory and treated with reverence in honor of Him.

I’m also thinking that money (whether paper or coin, or any other medium of exchange) has no inherent value; the value we attach to it is but a shared belief based on the false notion that rarity is inversely proportional to significance. We made it that way in this world, and we have to make friends with it (mammon) for practical purposes. But God’s eternal ways and glory is in sharing everything He has.

[CV75]

7 hours ago, Traveler said:

Thank you all for your input.  I expected more negative comments – but let me proceed with things so far.  I am thinking that the really rich and wealthy of eternity are the more glorious.  In section 11 of the D&C we are told that “he that hath eternal life is rich.”  It is my understanding that the reference to “eternal life” is not the resurrected immortal living for ever but rather those that are Celestial.  That eternal is a reference to our eternal Father – so it is a life like his.  This is a way of saying that Celestial beings are rich.

But the Celestial way of thinking is not about hording one’s wealth.  My impression that is Lucifer’s reason for wanting Glory.  Rather the Celestial rich dedicate all their wealth for the benefit of others.  I thought about this for a while, and I do not think that Celestial individuals only care about those that are Celestial.  They help the poor.  That would mean that they maintain those of lessor or no Glory.

Because of the attitudes of Satan towards the Father and the Son – it is my impression that he is very jealous and covetous of their wealth (Glory).  But because he is fully dependent upon the grace and kindness of those that are Celestial – he is forced to be obedient to their commands.  I have wondered why Satan obeys the Father and Son – even though reluctantly.   He and all that are not Celestial have no choice.

Perhaps this can give insights into the war in heaven.  Since there was no pain, suffering or even death – what then would be the weapons.  What would be the chains that would bind the wicked.  A couple of ideas here.  First – wickedness would not be defined by what someone does to others – because there is nothing they could do to harm others.  Wickedness would be the harm that they do to themselves.  The only harm that they could do to themselves is refuse to be obedient to the laws, ordinances and covenants – especially the Celestial laws, ordinances and covenants.  Their acts of war would be to attempt to convince others to be disobedient to the laws, ordinances and covenants.   The scripture descriptions of this is to tempt others to become miserable like unto them.

The second idea is that righteous would be defined as someone that is obedient to the laws, ordinances and covenants.  Therefore, the weapons of the Celestial or righteous in fighting the eternal war between good and evil – is the light of truth.  This is why the war in heaven is still being fought and what is the means of the fighting.  This means that repentance is not so much about getting past or forgiven of sin as it is about embracing light and truth and being obedient to the laws, ordinances and covenants.

We have had some discussion on this forum about the one and only true Church.  This is why believing in the one and only true G-d involves one faith, one hope and one baptism.   This is why the Saints of G-d are willing to do the work in the temples for the dead – despite that many of those that died without the law, ordinances and covenants will remain in their wickedness by the exercise of their agency.  It is the kind of thing that divine Celestial beings do with their riches.

Thanks for reading – and for input.

 

The Traveler

Keeping the scope of money/records and economy/[practices, discourses and expressions associated with godly attributes] to the preexistence:

Both the record and the godly attributes were constantly before us, but we could not access or comprehend them all without mortal and then resurrected bodies, and without creating a record in mortality to match the record constantly before us. I take the war to be about which records (Christ is the Word) and godly attributes (Th Father has them all) were of most value*, and which to access, and how to access them. 

* the same false notion we see about money in this world. All the records and godly attributes are of value.

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, zil2 said:

You said "could do no harm" - no harm means none, zero.  I submit that the emotional harm done is greater than none, that the spiritual harm done is greater than none.  For an example, and I see no reason why the pre-mortal weeping should have been any different, please re-read Moses 7:28-40.

Whether it's the righteous weeping for the loss of those who chose wickedness, or the misery of those who chose wickedness through the temptations of others, either way, we have more harm than none, regardless of whether it's temporary or eternal.

Perhaps I should have been more clear.  I do not think it harms the righteous to weep over or because of the wicked.

 

The Traveler

[Still_Small_Voice]

On 5/10/2024 at 8:52 AM, Traveler said:

Perhaps this can give insights into the war in heaven.  Since there was no pain, suffering or even death – what then would be the weapons.  What would be the chains that would bind the wicked.  A couple of ideas here.  First – wickedness would not be defined by what someone does to others – because there is nothing they could do to harm others.  Wickedness would be the harm that they do to themselves.  The only harm that they could do to themselves is refuse to be obedient to the laws, ordinances and covenants – especially the Celestial laws, ordinances and covenants.  Their acts of war would be to attempt to convince others to be disobedient to the laws, ordinances and covenants.   The scripture descriptions of this is to tempt others to become miserable like unto them.

I believe the main way immortals battle is the victorious push the losing party to somewhere else that they do not want to go.  We see Jehovah and His angels casting the Devil and his demons away in the scriptures.

[Traveler]

16 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

I believe the main way immortals battle is the victorious push the losing party to somewhere else that they do not want to go.  We see Jehovah and His angels casting the Devil and his demons away in the scriptures.

Later in scripture we see Satan coming before the thrown of G-d to make deals concerning Job.  I am not an expert but I wonder if it is just that Satan does not like hanging around all that much in places where G-d and his covenant people are firmly established in righteousness – upholding the law, maintaining the ordinances and keeping the covenants.

 

The Traveler

[Still_Small_Voice]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Later in scripture we see Satan coming before the thrown of G-d to make deals concerning Job.  I am not an expert but I wonder if it is just that Satan does not like hanging around all that much in places where G-d and his covenant people are firmly established in righteousness – upholding the law, maintaining the ordinances and keeping the covenants.

The Traveler

Was the Devil coming around before the throne of God by his own choice, or was he summoned and told to account of his works before the LORD God?

[Traveler]

17 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

Was the Devil coming around before the throne of God by his own choice, or was he summoned and told to account of his works before the LORD God?

I have had troubles dealing with the book of Job and this interface with Satan.  It is my understanding that the book of Job is the earliest scripture to categorize the individual Satan by name and a unique entity.   It would seem that other early references were more symbolic than direct reference.  It had been my understanding that Satan (previously known as Lucifer) was forced to leave heaven and never return.  That his fallen state was fixed.  I have concluded that like many things in scripture there is more to what is being said than what is being said.

It does not appear to me that Satan was summoned.  Or that if he was summoned that he was against the summons.  He seems to show up with a previously determined agenda and was allowed to pursue his agenda as an affront towards G-d and that G-d willfully capitulates.  I mitigate this epoch in scripture to be more symbolic than factual.   In short there is much more deep below the surface to this.  It is for this reason, to see how you and others of the forum have dealt with a seemingly paradox of Satan making bargains before G-d that will affect the souls of man.  And that man is without any resemblance of agency or any choice in the matter.  But now we are getting deep into LDS doctrine concerning the pre-existence and the roll of agency and how that plays into our mortal journey of travelers in a strange land. 

 

The Traveler

[ZealoulyStriving]

27 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I have had troubles dealing with the book of Job and this interface with Satan.  It is my understanding that the book of Job is the earliest scripture to categorize the individual Satan by name and a unique entity.   It would seem that other early references were more symbolic than direct reference.  It had been my understanding that Satan (previously known as Lucifer) was forced to leave heaven and never return.  That his fallen state was fixed.  I have concluded that like many things in scripture there is more to what is being said than what is being said.

It does not appear to me that Satan was summoned.  Or that if he was summoned that he was against the summons.  He seems to show up with a previously determined agenda and was allowed to pursue his agenda as an affront towards G-d and that G-d willfully capitulates.  I mitigate this epoch in scripture to be more symbolic than factual.   In short there is much more deep below the surface to this.  It is for this reason, to see how you and others of the forum have dealt with a seemingly paradox of Satan making bargains before G-d that will affect the souls of man.  And that man is without any resemblance of agency or any choice in the matter.  But now we are getting deep into LDS doctrine concerning the pre-existence and the roll of agency and how that plays into our mortal journey of travelers in a strange land. 

 

The Traveler

I personally believe the casting out of Satan happened in two stages:

1) He was cast down to the earth, but because the Atonement had no yet happened he could still, in his role as accuser, enter the sanctuary to accuse.

2) At the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, the sanctuary was completely cleansed and Satan's access was permanently and completely revoked. Now, in the sanctuary, only the righteous angels can bring our prayers before God as incense, and the Savior intercedes for us continually. No outside accuser can accuse us before God anymore.

Edited May 13 by ZealoulyStriving

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

I personally believe the casting out of Satan happened in two stages:

1) He was cast down to the earth, but because the Atonement had no yet happened he could still, in his role as accuser, enter the sanctuary to accuse.

2) At the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, the sanctuary was completely cleansed and Satan's access was permanently and completely revoked. Now, in the sanctuary, only the righteous angels can bring our prayers before God as incense, and the Savior intercedes for us continually. No outside accuser can accuse us before God anymore.

I have a somewhat different view for what it is worth.  I do agree that Lucifer fell and left heaven.  I do not know how much of that was forced and how much of his leaving was somewhat voluntary.   But there was something else.  When Adam fell all of mankind fell with him.  The scriptures say that as in Adam all die.  There are two deaths – one is physical the other is a spiritual death.  The spiritual death is in essence being cast out of heaven (the Father’s presents).  The person we call Jesus Christ or Jehovah became the mediator with the Father over all those exiled from heaven.  Thus, Lucifer left heaven in one occurrence and in another mankind also fell – suffering a spiritual death.

In Job when Satan came before the thrown of G-d – that was the thrown of Jehovah and not the Father.  I have some to speculate that Satan will go through an additional exile at the end of time known as the final judgement.  At the final judgment he will fulfill his role as the accuser.  Until then he will have access (all though with perhaps some limitations) to all those the reside in the first fallen state – which I speculate involve some spirits still in the pre-existence as well as those in the spirit world awaiting the final judgment.

Going back to our original thought – beings of light are not comfortable in places given to darkness.  Likewise, beings of darkness are not comfortable in places of light and truth.  I believe this to be an element of our Agency.

 

The Traveler