Jesus Christ

[mikbone]

Two questions.

1)  How different was Jesus Christ from every other pre-mortal spirit?

In Abraham 3:18–19, we read that where there are two spirits, one will be more intelligent than the other and that “the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.” In commenting on these verses, Elder B. H. Roberts concluded that God was not only “more intelligent than all of the other intelligences,” but that he was “more intelligent than all the other intelligences combined. His intelligence is greater than that of the mass” 

2) What do you think made him special?  Did he get extra training, or some kind of endowment?

[ZealoulyStriving]

53 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Two questions.

1)  How different was Jesus Christ from every other pre-mortal spirit?

In Abraham 3:18–19, we read that where there are two spirits, one will be more intelligent than the other and that “the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.” In commenting on these verses, Elder B. H. Roberts concluded that God was not only “more intelligent than all of the other intelligences,” but that he was “more intelligent than all the other intelligences combined. His intelligence is greater than that of the mass” 

2) What do you think made him special?  Did he get extra training, or some kind of endowment?

Effort?

"18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.

19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come." (Doctrine and Covenants 130)

**Maybe the same principle applies to pre-mortal --> mortal life. **

[Traveler]

@mikbone and of course others:

I think that both questions are answered with the same thought.  I will offer my thought or take on Jesus Christ.  Some comes from my understanding of scripture.  I believe Jesus was the first born.  This does not necessarily mean the chronologically first born but the highest, best or most intelligent.  Intelligence is tightly coupled to the light of truth.  I believe the light of truth is also called the spirit of Christ which means that Jesus was and is the most qualified.

As an engineer I understand the principle of physical design tolerances.  That when things are coupled it takes place within the tolerance parameters.  There is a problem when multiple things are coupled because tolerances do not tend to cancel out but rather add up.  I think this is what B H Roberts was most likely referring to that Jesus was more intelligent than them all.  I do not think that if Jesus was playing basketball that by himself, he would be better than a team.

I am of the mind that because Jesus had the best connection to light and truth that in turn, he took more upon himself.  He was most willing of all to sacrifice and suffer for the benefit of others.  There was among the children of G-d another seemingly highly intelligent individual.  Perhaps it was initially only the Father that realized Jesus was more intelligent and willing to sacrifice and suffer for others – and this is why the Father chose Jesus over Lucifer to be the Messiah of mankind.  As a side note: I find it interesting and perhaps revealing that in all cases given us in scripture when two brothers both sought the birthright that it always went to the younger and more spiritual of the two.  Because of this and because Lucifer was also called the son of the morning – I speculate that Lucifer was the older brother to Jesus.

Jesus was chosen – I believe because of all G-d’s children he is the closest to the spirit of Christ – both as an intelligent being (prior to what the scriptures call the beginning) and as a willingness to condescend, sacrifice and suffer for the benefit of others.

 

The Traveler

[ZealoulyStriving]

5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I speculate that Lucifer was the older brother to Jesus

For those who believe that at least some of the Michigan tablets are authentic- they point to the "Son of the Left Hand" (bad) being older than the "Son of the Right Hand" (good).

[CV75]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

Two questions.

1)  How different was Jesus Christ from every other pre-mortal spirit?

In Abraham 3:18–19, we read that where there are two spirits, one will be more intelligent than the other and that “the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.” In commenting on these verses, Elder B. H. Roberts concluded that God was not only “more intelligent than all of the other intelligences,” but that he was “more intelligent than all the other intelligences combined. His intelligence is greater than that of the mass” 

2) What do you think made him special?  Did he get extra training, or some kind of endowment?

I think He grew from grace to grace through correct choices. I do not know anything of how this process started for Him or for any of us. But there seems to be something common in all of our intelligences that draws us together for our united theosis. If Christ was the only one around, He would not be a god any more than any of us could be, alone or in unison (apart from Him). I suppose something in our choices influenced His, and something in His choices influenced us. Given we are all children of Heavenly Father and in His presence, when I say choice, I mean those choices having to do with developing all the Father's attributes. 

Not everyone was influenced to choose as He did, hence the war in heaven depending on how we responded to His choices.

[Vort]

3 hours ago, mikbone said:

In commenting on these verses, Elder B. H. Roberts concluded that God was not only “more intelligent than all of the other intelligences,” but that he was “more intelligent than all the other intelligences combined. His intelligence is greater than that of the mass” 

I've always enjoyed Elder Roberts and valued his opinions, but this particular one has never made sense to me. What does "combined intelligence" mean? Are ten million three-year-olds combined smarter than you? What might that even mean? IMO, the whole topic is an exercise in forcing a vast eternal truth into a tiny mortal framework. Can't be done. The conclusion itself has no base reference, so no conclusion reached from making the effort can be trusted even to mean anything, much less be correct.

[Anddenex]

8 hours ago, mikbone said:

Two questions.

1)  How different was Jesus Christ from every other pre-mortal spirit?

In Abraham 3:18–19, we read that where there are two spirits, one will be more intelligent than the other and that “the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.” In commenting on these verses, Elder B. H. Roberts concluded that God was not only “more intelligent than all of the other intelligences,” but that he was “more intelligent than all the other intelligences combined. His intelligence is greater than that of the mass” 

2) What do you think made him special?  Did he get extra training, or some kind of endowment?

1) This is where I like the language from Alma 13, and in particular verse 5. Our Savior was the only one of us who was perfect from the beginning, which is why he was the only one who could perform the Atonement. I agree with the principle of intelligence and exercising faith.  The difference would be similar to the differences we see in our modern physical world. A person that cleaves unto light and truth and never denying will be worlds apart from an individual who cleaves unto darkness and error. I think the language of Christ being "like unto God (the Father)" is a very important principle, "And there stood one among them that was like unto God," in light of other intelligences present -- Abraham being one of them.

2) His love for God was perfect. That is what separates Him from us. If we all had the same love Christ has for his Father, we would have been able to accomplish the same feats, but our love for God was not perfect (Satan is evidence of this).

 

[mikbone]

7 hours ago, Traveler said:

Because of this and because Lucifer was also called the son of the morning – I speculate that Lucifer was the older brother to Jesus.

 

5 hours ago, Vort said:

The conclusion itself has no base reference, so no conclusion reached from making the effort can be trusted even to mean anything, much less be correct.

Ether 3:14 “Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people.”           

D&C 93:21 “And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn"

Abraham 3:24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God

Abraham 3:19 I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

 

From the above scriptures, and from common sense I derrived the idea that Jesus is different from us (vastly), not because of chance or simply because He loved God more.

Jesus was prepared.  You can read this as if he prepared himself or that someone else prepared him for his calling, or likely both.

From D&C 93:21, I sense that not only is Jesus Christ the Eldest.  He likely pre-dates the rest of us (vastly).  Most likely when the rest of us were figuring out how to be spirit children, Jehovah already had experinces that had made him intelligent and wise.  

When we compared ourselves to Jehovah, we realized that Jehovah was more like God then he was like us...

Or from B. H. Boberts point of view - We were all akin to kindergarderners with fingerpaint and messy faces and shirts while Jesus was a Michaelangelo. 

 

Jesus understood the details of the Plan of Salvation before we were even introduced to the concept. 

And somehow Jesus Christ's infinite atonement had the power proactively to save, cleanse, and make whole.  See Alma the younger in Mosiah 27:24-31

  

8 hours ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come." (Doctrine and Covenants 130)

Yeah here is the answer.

He had gained knowledge and intelligence way before we were even introduced to the Plan of Salvation.

He was one with the Father.  He had power to create.  He cast out Satan and the third host from heaven.  He had already been pre-conditioned against sin.  And he knew that he was the Lamb.  

 

The question is when and how did all this preperation happen?!

 

Was it like Neo learning Kung-Fu in the Matrix?

Or was it something more practical?

[Carborendum]

14 hours ago, mikbone said:

The question is when and how did all this preperation happen?!

 

Was it like Neo learning Kung-Fu in the Matrix?

Or was it something more practical?

Neither.  I'd advise you to read more closely the same scriptures you already cited.  The answer is there.

[CV75]

20 hours ago, Anddenex said:

1) This is where I like the language from Alma 13, and in particular verse 5. Our Savior was the only one of us who was perfect from the beginning, which is why he was the only one who could perform the Atonement. I agree with the principle of intelligence and exercising faith.  The difference would be similar to the differences we see in our modern physical world. A person that cleaves unto light and truth and never denying will be worlds apart from an individual who cleaves unto darkness and error. I think the language of Christ being "like unto God (the Father)" is a very important principle, "And there stood one among them that was like unto God," in light of other intelligences present -- Abraham being one of them.

2) His love for God was perfect. That is what separates Him from us. If we all had the same love Christ has for his Father, we would have been able to accomplish the same feats, but our love for God was not perfect (Satan is evidence of this).

 

This love, I think, is the main godly attribute that He developed, grace for grace, to a far greater extent than we ever did and are still challenged to do.

I believe I have come to realize that Heavenly Father is not hiding from us, nor hiding behind His Son because He cannot tolerate the least degree of sin or telestial conditions (after, all, He has appeared or at least spoken directly to some few on earth). Instead, He has placed us in a telestial sphere where we can discover the eternal medium and language of communicating and communicating with Him. Once we catch on to that, we can progress as His Son did, premortally and in this life. He sent His Son by way of a fallen mortal body to show us, because we could not endure the Father's direct presence without quickening -- and how can that happen without faith?. His Son's eternal light shines in the darkness of this world through His personal pre-mortal and mortal mission, and now after His resurrection also. We come to recognize it, and choose to either receive it or reject it (in degrees, of course).

[CV75]

19 hours ago, mikbone said:

 

Ether 3:14 “Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people.”           

D&C 93:21 “And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn"

Abraham 3:24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God

Abraham 3:19 I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

 

From the above scriptures, and from common sense I derrived the idea that Jesus is different from us (vastly), not because of chance or simply because He loved God more.

Jesus was prepared.  You can read this as if he prepared himself or that someone else prepared him for his calling, or likely both.

From D&C 93:21, I sense that not only is Jesus Christ the Eldest.  He likely pre-dates the rest of us (vastly).  Most likely when the rest of us were figuring out how to be spirit children, Jehovah already had experinces that had made him intelligent and wise.  

When we compared ourselves to Jehovah, we realized that Jehovah was more like God then he was like us...

Or from B. H. Boberts point of view - We were all akin to kindergarderners with fingerpaint and messy faces and shirts while Jesus was a Michaelangelo. 

 

Jesus understood the details of the Plan of Salvation before we were even introduced to the concept. 

And somehow Jesus Christ's infinite atonement had the power proactively to save, cleanse, and make whole.  See Alma the younger in Mosiah 27:24-31

  

Yeah here is the answer.

He had gained knowledge and intelligence way before we were even introduced to the Plan of Salvation.

He was one with the Father.  He had power to create.  He cast out Satan and the third host from heaven.  He had already been pre-conditioned against sin.  And he knew that he was the Lamb.  

 

The question is when and how did all this preperation happen?!

 

Was it like Neo learning Kung-Fu in the Matrix?

Or was it something more practical?

I think it happened then in the same way it happened in His mortal experience: D&C 93: 11- 14 (premortal, though also analogous to this life); verses 15 -18 (mortal, though also analogous to His premortal life).

A difference I see, from the preceding verses, is that He was involved with the Father in making worlds many times and long before this one and coming into it, while we may have settled for helping Him make just this one world before coming into it. It is one of those choices where there is no down side, whether to choose to learn more as Jesus did, to to learn enough as we did. He learned enough to Save, whereas we learned enough to be saved. In the end we all have the same thing, eternal life and exaltation on the basis upon which we desire it, whether the heir or joint heirs. There is no wrong or lesser choice, except to reject Jesus or cease to learn more and settle only for just enough.\

RE: BH Roberts, perhaps He helped the Father in the work of salvation on the same number of billions of worlds as there are billions of people ever to inhabit just this one... plus one, rendering Him more intelligent than us all combined.

Edited June 1, 2024 by CV75

[mikbone]

5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Neither.  I'd advise you to read more closely the same scriptures you already cited.  The answer is there.

Oh, I’ve done some serious study on the topic.

I agree the answer is there.

Probably not downloading like from the Matrix.

So He must have been prepared in a practical manner.

Was it via trial and error?  

Some think that Jehovah never made a mistake.

I think that the best learning experiences come from our trials, errors (of our own and watching others mistakes), and finding solutions.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

Oh, I’ve done some serious study on the topic.

I agree the answer is there.

Probably not downloading like from the Matrix.

So He must have been prepared in a practical manner.

Was it via trial and error?  

Some think that Jehovah never made a mistake.

I think that the best learning experiences come from our trials, errors (of our own and watching others mistakes), and finding solutions.

The nine disciples in 3 Nephi 28 who wanted to find rest the Lord’s kingdom at age 72 and the three who wished to tarry both made good and worthy choices. He called the Three Nephites “more blessed” as He explained the full meaning of their desires. The other nine did not change their minds after hearing this, so they were just as happy. The Three Nephites had some sorrow first, and the other nine did not. The other nine would eventually learn that the work is not yet over in the worlds to come (and thus attain a fulness of joy), and the Three Nephites would likewise eventually learn to rest, attaining their fulness of joy.

The Three Nephites are akin to Jesus remaining with the Father for many worlds, carrying out His work on many times as a Spirit, while the rest of us are akin to the other nine disciples who wanted to get going into our second estate as soon as possible. We will yet need to develop the attributes Jesus has post-mortally, wherein His grace is required, and He has already accumulated all we need to obtain, by His Father’s grace pre-mortally.

I am in the camp of believing that Jehovah never made a mistake. But even in never making a mistake, He could still learn, be blessed and more blessed of the Father, and thus progress, not by repentance, but by constant expansion. We make mistakes and must progress through repentance as well as expansion.

Where did we make the first “mistake” in the pre-existence? I would say in coming to this earth without participating in the Father’s work on others, as Jesus did. I must emphasize that “mistake” is the wrong word for the juncture in which we became saviors instead of Saviors on the path to exaltation. Obviously not at all that uncommon!

Once we are in this estate where we do  make mistakes, we learn from them only because of the Savior; many of us do not learn from them. Lacking Jehovah's stature and experience explains why the Father expects us to make mistakes in a fallen world and addressed them in the design, and why He provided a Savior to glorify that design.

[askandanswer]

Ive sometimes wondered if the "specialness" of Jesus might be because He was the Father's son when the Father was a mortal. We know that God has a wife. Perhaps He also had a son. 

[laronius]

When we consider the process of our becoming perfected IN Christ, we are ultimately submitting our will to His will and allowing the Spirit to bring about a fundamental change within us.

So when we consider on the ascension of Christ to His exalted status we need to ask ourselves whether He did this in and of himself or was He perfected IN someone else, most likely His Father. I am of the opinion it was the latter. If that was the case then the key quality was His complete willingness to submit to the will of the Father. If that is true then why was it not the same for each of us? Why were we not able to be perfected in the same manner? 

I think the process of becoming perfected requires a unique combination of submission and independence. Acting and not being acted upon while fully submitting to Another's will. It is something that I'm still trying to work out in my own mind. If you get it wrong you end up like those that followed Lucifer in the premortal world and those that do so here in mortality.