A finite number of sins solved by an infinite atonement?

[askandanswer]

I suspect that if all the sins that were, are and will be committed by God's children we would end up with a finite number. Is the atonement an example of applying an infinite solution to a finite problem?

[mikbone]

D&C 19:6-12 Gives a pertinent definition to the words endless and eternal.  The same likely applies to the word infinite.

I think that Jesus Christ’s Atonement applies to those pre-mortal spirits that heard the question, “Who shall I send?” - Abraham 3:27.

Of course, this could lead one to assume that there might be an infinite amount of infinite atonements.

Where was there ever a son without a father? and where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? - History, 1838–1856, volume F-1 [1 May 1844–8 August 1844], p. 103, The Joseph Smith Papers, accessed June 16, 2024, https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-f-1-1-may-1844-8-august-1844/109

🎵 If you could hie to kolob 🎵 

♾️

 

Edited June 16, 2024 by mikbone

[zil2]

I believe the Atonement did more than "pay some affixed, finite (but eternal*) price for each single, numerated sin of each individual within the specified set of individuals it covers".  I believe that Christ, through his Atonement did that; and gained power, authority, and other attributes and abilities which allow him to lead us back to God, if we will; and that He overcame the very concept of sin, the concept of weakness, the concept of failure, misery, and everything else hell has to offer.  By overcoming all those concepts, he gained said power, authority, ability, etc.  I think this is the "infinite" aspect (as well as what @mikbone said - Christ himself being infinite and eternal).  So yes, in a way, I suppose this is an infinite solution to a finite problem.  But it's an eternal solution to an eternal problem (the consequence of just one sin being eternal without Christ).

IMO, sin is a less useful word than "sinful".  We tend to think of sin as an event which has a start and an end.  I'm not so sure they're so easily delineated.  Thinking of our sinful nature seems more accurate.  Thinking of Christ having the ability, through His Atonement, to help us overcome our sinful natures seems more useful.

 

*Just try wrapping your head around "finite, but eternal" - that'll twist your brain in knots.

Edited June 16, 2024 by zil2

[laronius]

The number of sins might be finite but the consequences of sin are potentially infinite, so far as we understand it. So that would be an infinite problem solved by an infinite atonement.

But we do know that the atonement of Jesus Christ applies to other worlds as well. What I haven't heard is how many other worlds and for what duration. Assuming creation continues by God indefinitely, does that mean this atonement continues to apply to future creations as well? Or just the current ones? I don't know. But that could be a source of infinite sins.

[mikbone]

Jesus Christ’s atonement not only has the power to save those repentant souls from hell, It also purified and changed Christ.  

Because Chris’t children will become creators themselves, his lineage and eternal progeny will continue to sin and need intercession.  Christ’s sacrifice provides thusly.

It does seem like an overkill solution though.  We have much to learn and do.

[askandanswer]

5 hours ago, mikbone said:

Jesus Christ’s atonement not only has the power to save those repentant souls from hell, It also purified and changed Christ.  

Because Chris’t children will become creators themselves, his lineage and eternal progeny will continue to sin and need intercession.  Christ’s sacrifice provides thusly.

It does seem like an overkill solution though.  We have much to learn and do.

Christ's progeny will only continue sin for as long as the Gods that preside over them give commandments, the violation of which constitutes sin. No commmandments- no sin - no need for an atonement. 

[mikbone]

11 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Christ's progeny will only continue sin for as long as the Gods that preside over them give commandments, the violation of which constitutes sin. No commmandments- no sin - no need for an atonement. 

If Christ’s firstborn son becomes a savior, etc, etc. There will always be a group.  Or maybe multiple groups doing the mortality thing.

[askandanswer]

6 hours ago, laronius said:

But we do know that the atonement of Jesus Christ applies to other worlds as well. What I haven't heard is how many other worlds and for what duration. Assuming creation continues by God indefinitely, does that mean this atonement continues to apply to future creations as well? Or just the current ones? I don't know. But that could be a source of infinite sins.

One of the things that has always made me a little wary about accepting claims that Christ's atonement applies to other worlds is a vague memory I have that Joseph Smith said something along the lines that God has/does/will only reveal to us things which pertain to this world. 

[laronius]

18 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

One of the things that has always made me a little wary about accepting claims that Christ's atonement applies to other worlds is a vague memory I have that Joseph Smith said something along the lines that God has/does/will only reveal to us things which pertain to this world. 

I do believe it was he who said something to that effect. I don't know that Christ being the Savior of other worlds is so much the revealed word of God as it is an extrapolation of revealed teachings, namely section 76 of the D&C which seems to teach that Christ created multiple inhabited worlds so it would make sense that he is the Savior of His creations. Multiple church leaders had taught the doctrine but I don't know that it's considered official.

[askandanswer]

6 minutes ago, laronius said:

I do believe it was he who said something to that effect. I don't know that Christ being the Savior of other worlds is so much the revealed word of God as it is an extrapolation of revealed teachings, namely section 76 of the D&C which seems to teach that Christ created multiple inhabited worlds so it would make sense that he is the Savior of His creations. Multiple church leaders had taught the doctrine but I don't know that it's considered official.

Perhaps its one atonement per world.

[zil2]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

Joseph Smith said something along the lines that God has/does/will only reveal to us things which pertain to this world. 

Quote

Moses 1:35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

This and Abraham 3 make it clear that though the Lord will only give the details of this world, He doesn't hide the fact that He is creator and Lord of many worlds.

And while one could argue that this applies only to this planet, one could just as easily argue that "all" is "all":

Quote

D&C 76:41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

I take that to mean that if Christ made it / them, Christ will redeem it / them.  And if we go back to Moses 1:

Quote

Moses 1:33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

However, to my knowledge, no scripture says there are / were people on other worlds - that's something we always assume, but I don't think the scriptures ever say it.  (Seems a reasonable assumption, but still an assumption.)

Edited June 16, 2024 by zil2

[CV75]

14 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I suspect that if all the sins that were, are and will be committed by God's children we would end up with a finite number. Is the atonement an example of applying an infinite solution to a finite problem?

While that which is infinite to us is finite to God (e.g., Moses 1: 35, "innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me..."); Mosiah 4: 29, "And finally, I cannot tell you all the things whereby ye may commit sin; for there are divers ways and means, even so many that I cannot number them."), 2 Nephi 9: 7 also uses it in terms of absolutes: "Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement—save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption ...must needs have remained to an endless duration... to rise no more." It is infinite because it makes that which is otherwise dead forever become alive forever. Death is infinite to us, but not under God's atonement; life is infinite instead.

Half of this equation has to do with overcoming spiritual death (sin); the other half has to do with granting physical life (immortality). Blending the two in a fulness is continuation of the seeds (exaltation).

[askandanswer]

30 minutes ago, zil2 said:

This and Abraham 3 make it clear that though the Lord will only give the details of this world, He doesn't hide the fact that He is creator and Lord of many worlds.

And while one could argue that this applies only to this planet, one could just as easily argue that "all" is "all":

I take that to mean that if Christ made it / them, Christ will redeem it / them.  And if we go back to Moses 1:

However, to my knowledge, no scripture says there are / were people on other worlds - that's something we always assume, but I don't think the scriptures ever say it.  (Seems a reasonable assumption, but still an assumption.)

Thank you @zil2 your use of logic applied to scripture helps to clarify things. I agree with the idea that Christ will enable the means of redemption for all who He has created. I also agree that there is nothing definitive on whether the other worlds are or have been inhabited, although like you, I suspect that it is more likely than not that they are/have been. I guess that leaves open the question of whether its one atonement for all or one atonement per world or some other arrangement.  

[mikbone]

Now this Enoch God reserved unto himself that he should not die <at> and that time and appointed unto him a ministry unto terrestrial bodies of whom there has been but little revealed, He is reserved also unto a the presidency of a dispensation — of and more shall be said of him and terrestrial bodies in another treaties.  

Instruction on Priesthood, circa 5 October 1840, p. 6, The Joseph Smith Papers, accessed June 16, 2024, https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/instruction-on-priesthood-circa-5-october-1840

3 Ne 16:1 And verily, verily, I say unto you that I have other sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister.  2 For they of whom I speak are they who have not as yet heard my voice; neither have I at any time manifested myself unto them. 3 But I have received a commandment of the Father that I shall go unto them, and that they shall hear my voice, and shall be numbered among my sheep, that there may be one fold and one shepherd; therefore I go to show myself unto them.

Based upon these 2 statements, I believe that there are many worlds whose inhabitants made covenants with Jesus Christ in our pre-mortal existence.  I cant wait to get their records.  And it might be possible that when Jesus Christ comes to Earth the for the second time that these extra-terestrials might be able to return to wittness the event as welll.  It will be quite the show.  

 

[zil2]

23 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I guess that leaves open the question of whether its one atonement for all or one atonement per world or some other arrangement.  

Go back and read all three of the D&C 76 verses - that seems to very clearly say that Christ's Atonement is for all that he has created (made).  (And yes, the two surrounding verses make it easier to say "planet Earth only", but I still think there's room enough for "all Christ made - including other worlds".)  Personally, I believe Christ's Atonement covers all he made, and if there are other planets, whatever life forms exist thereon, Christ is their only redeemer.

[askandanswer]

5 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Go back and read all three of the D&C 76 verses - that seems to very clearly say that Christ's Atonement is for all that he has created (made).  (And yes, the two surrounding verses make it easier to say "planet Earth only", but I still think there's room enough for "all Christ made - including other worlds".)  Personally, I believe Christ's Atonement covers all he made, and if there are other planets, whatever life forms exist thereon, Christ is their only redeemer.

A problem I have with this approach is that it turns God into a debtor to justice. If Christ's single Atonement on this Earth covered all the sins that were ever committed on other earths, it becomes hard to avoid the conclusion that the price of all those sins committed on other worlds prior to the Atonement on this world, effectively went on the credit card - with payment only being made well after those sins were committed. I can see the demands of justice for all those who sinned on this world prior to the Atonement perhaps being delayed until the Atonement, but to stretch the patience of justice to cover the sins of many worlds would seem a little surprising. There might also be some unfairness in delaying the exhaltation of all those beings from other worlds while they sat around waiting for something over which they had no control to happen on another world.

[Traveler]

There is a big problem with the definition of infinite.  As a mathematical construct – I do not think infinite can be applied directly to anything that is real.  I also do not believe that random is a real construct.  Everything in this universe, as we are capable of understanding it, is by all definitions finite.  For example, we say the universe is isotropic – that could not possibly be true if the universe is infinite.  This logic applies to an infinite atonement in the same manner – it would make the atonement indescribable (which is another word for meaningless).  It is my opinion that when we talk about an infinite atonement is because we are incapable of understanding the boundaries of what the atonement is capable of.

Therefore it is pointless to attempt to limit the atonement to anything we can understand or describe. 

 

The Traveler

Edited June 16, 2024 by Traveler

[zil2]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

A problem I have with this approach is that it turns God into a debtor to justice. If Christ's single Atonement on this Earth covered all the sins that were ever committed on other earths, it becomes hard to avoid the conclusion that the price of all those sins committed on other worlds prior to the Atonement on this world, effectively went on the credit card - with payment only being made well after those sins were committed.

Quote

Mosiah 16:6 And now if Christ had not come into the world, speaking of things to come as though they had already come, there could have been no redemption.

Quote

Alma 24:14 And the great God has had mercy on us, and made these things known unto us that we might not perish; yea, and he has made these things known unto us beforehand, because he loveth our souls as well as he loveth our children; therefore, in his mercy he doth visit us by his angels, that the plan of salvation might be made known unto us as well as unto future generations.

Quote

Alma 40:8 Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men.

I submit that it does not matter.  Christ's Atonement has been in effect from the beginning.  I'm also not certain we have any clue what "time" means.

I kind of suspect that Earth is the last of Christ's creations (made by his own hand) and that once this Earth is exalted His glory will be added to by the creations of those who have become His by covenant (see D&C 88:74), but I could be all wrong.  It makes sense to me, though, that this would be the last.  (Yes, I know, His work and words have no end, but that doesn't necessarily mean His personal involvement will continue in the same fashion as it has - there are more ways than one to work.)

[zil2]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

while they sat around waiting for something over which they had no control to happen on another world.

Like we had any control?

[NeuroTypical]

18 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I suspect that if all the sins that were, are and will be committed by God's children we would end up with a finite number.

I've met my fair share of people dead set on making that statement false. 

[askandanswer]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

I've met my fair share of people dead set on making that statement false. 

Let me check my records.

Hmmm, @NeuroTypical, number of sins as of June 17: 1,207

Please note, this is the number of unrepented sins, the actual number is, well, somewhat higher. 

Edited June 17, 2024 by askandanswer

[laronius]

7 hours ago, zil2 said:

 

However, to my knowledge, no scripture says there are / were people on other worlds - that's something we always assume, but I don't think the scriptures ever say it.  (Seems a reasonable assumption, but still an assumption.)

D&C 76:23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father— 24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God

The chapter heading summarizes these verses as saying: 18–24, The inhabitants of many worlds are begotten sons and daughters unto God through the Atonement of Jesus Christ

[NeuroTypical]

12 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Let me check my records.

Hmmm, @NeuroTypical, number of sins as of June 17: 1,207

Please note, this is the number of unrepented sins, the actual number is, well, somewhat higher. 

This is honestly not a bad exercise for us to run on ourselves occasionally.  IMO, looking in the mirror and being honest is critical to being a good disciple.

 

[Vort]

The ultimately finite nature of human individuals and of time itself is not the issue.

Any time you sin, you have intentionally removed yourself from God. You cannot fill that gap; you have no such power. In effect, sin—any sin, however small—creates an infinite gulf between you and God. Thus, we all need an infinite atonement to bring us back to the Father

[zil2]

10 hours ago, laronius said:

D&C 76:23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father— 24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God

The chapter heading summarizes these verses as saying: 18–24, The inhabitants of many worlds are begotten sons and daughters unto God through the Atonement of Jesus Christ

Thank you!  I had forgotten that one.