What are some good arguments for God existing within matter, space, and time?

[CommanderSouth]

In my ongoing grapple with these philosophical/metaphysical concepts, I'm seeing 2 visions of God emerge. 

First is that of "orthodoxy" which says God is separate, transcendent, from all creation.  He exists beyond matter, space, and time.  He is the uncaused cause.  This answers some questions, such as where did we come from.  But it leaves others, like how would we communicate with such a being, or it to us.  This posits the universe had a beginning, and he is the cause.

Second is that of us (the church).  Which says God is here.  He exists as part of matter, space, and time.  He is like us, some form of matter, and guides us along the paths he took.  This answers questions of communication and our relationship, but leaves the idea of infinite regress.  It leaves the idea that time itself is both self existent, and also causal, which seems contradictory.

If you embrace the first, you have to answer the problem of evil.  An all knowing God who made the rules, created all that exists, knowing what would happen.

If you embrace the second, you answer the problem of evil, we're all just self existant free wills being guided by God.  It helps with a lot of things, but an "atemporal" temporal universe seems self contradictory.

I know I'm in the weeds, but I appreciate the help, and thoughts

[person0]

[CommanderSouth]

10 minutes ago, person0 said:

I enjoyed my skim of this thread, it sounds like something I'd ask.  That being said, what ideas do you think relevant to this idea I'm kicking around of:

God is encompassed by the universe, of which there is no outside.  VS  The universe is encompassed by God, of which there is no outside?

Beyond, the idea that the "outside" is the same as an immovable rock. (Crap, did I just get it?!)

[person0]

8 minutes ago, CommanderSouth said:

Beyond, the idea that the "outside" is the same as an immovable rock. (Crap, did I just get it?!)

Exactly.  The 'outside' is not within the realm of things that exist or can exist.

[CommanderSouth]

1 minute ago, person0 said:

Exactly.  The 'outside' is not within the realm of things that exist or can exist.

Which of course disproves Ex Nihilo, as you said.  And in my current Catholic investigation, I posed the same problem.  Anyone who believes in ex nihilo is cherry picking their contradictions to permit.

[LDSGator]

If you are interested in this get an introductory book on Thomas Aquinas-he addressed the issues you are dealing with.  

[CommanderSouth]

9 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

If you are interested in this get an introductory book on Thomas Aquinas-he addressed the issues you are dealing with.  

Funny you say that, I'm waffling on the LDS faith vs Catholicism as we speak, and what I've been hearing from Aquinas has been compelling.

And this topic is the best way I've found to encapsulate the contrasting views I'm thinking about. I'll keep looking into his stuff, TY for the recommendation!

[LDSGator]

19 minutes ago, CommanderSouth said:

Funny you say that, I'm waffling on the LDS faith vs Catholicism as we speak, and what I've been hearing from Aquinas has been compelling.

And this topic is the best way I've found to encapsulate the contrasting views I'm thinking about. I'll keep looking into his stuff, TY for the recommendation!

Welcome. 
 

Read this too. It’s from an LDS source. 
 

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V51N01_31.pdf

[zil2]

You're asking us to explain things God himself chooses not explain:

Quote

Moses 1:35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

I was going to quote part of this, but now I'm thinking you should just read from Chapter 17 of Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, the section titled "We are eternal beings; we can advance toward exaltation as we obey the laws of God."

 

1 hour ago, CommanderSouth said:

I'm waffling on the LDS faith vs Catholicism as we speak

The truth is not to be found in "good arguments" one way or the other. Those all come from fallen mankind who, really, aren't all that smart as a whole.

Quote

Abraham 3:19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

It is the Spirit, the Holy Ghost, who teaches and testifies of truth.  God has intentionally kept many things from us because one thing is most important: the gospel of Jesus Christ.  Whether there are many worlds or one world, many universes or none, a beginning (which is far more absurd than the incomprehensible idea of no beginning) or only eternity, those facts will not lead you back to God.  (I am not suggesting one be satisfied only with the knowledge one currently has, nor only with what's currently contained in scripture, but I am suggesting that without the Spirit, there is no knowledge, and the philosophies and "arguments" of man are foolishness to God.)

In other words, seek the Spirit.  If you aren't sure how to do that:

1. Read the Book of Mormon every day.

2. Start with the most recent General Conference talk by President Nelson, study it, implement it in your life, then move back to the previous one.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

Edited June 28, 2024 by zil2

[person0]

22 minutes ago, zil2 said:

It is the Spirit, the Holy Ghost, who teaches and testifies of truth.

↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑!!!!!

[zil2]

NOTE: In all likelihood, the below should be utterly ignored in favor of seeking the Spirit to testify to you of truth.  I testify, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that Joseph Smith was and still is a prophet, that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, that God lives, that Jesus Christ is His Son, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Christ's restored Church, and the only one with Christ's power and authority to administer the ordinances and covenants of salvation.

But here's some human logic if the Spirit's not enough for you...

2 hours ago, CommanderSouth said:

God is separate, transcendent, from all creation.  He exists beyond matter, space, and time.  He is the uncaused cause.  This answers some questions, such as where did we come from.  But it leaves others, like how would we communicate with such a being, or it to us.  This posits the universe had a beginning, and he is the cause.

Please note that this suggests God has no beginning.  Which is the same as there being no beginning.  If no beginning is a "problem" in one belief system, why isn't it a problem in the other?

You say one good thing about this is that it explains where we came from.  Actually, it doesn't explain it so much as claim it and then dismiss it.  Our beliefs do a far better job of explaining where man comes from - and it is the only origin that makes sense.  Magical "creating out of nothing" flies in the face of reason and experience.  If something exists, it (or what it is composed of) has always existed - everything we know and experience attests to this.  That we find eternity past incomprehensible doesn't change the fact that nothing else makes more sense.

And ponder this: Do you have a hard time believing in eternity future?  Is it hard to believe that you will continue to exist forever and ever, with no end, even if all you do is die and turn to dust and the matter and energy that were you continue?  If you don't find eternity future hard to believe in, why do you find eternity past hard to believe in?  I'll tell you why: because mortality is full of beginnings, because we don't want to believe that our current state is the best we could manage over an infinite timespan, and because we have no memory of it nor ability to imagine it.  To which I say, that doesn't alter the fact that it's the most rational option available to us.

New topic:

If the above belief system is correct, then how do you explain all the scriptures that say humans were created in the image of God, male and female?  But the above (and those who teach it) say that God is not like us and especially that God does not have a wife - the female part of humans being in the image of God.  Oh sure, they'll say Christ came and temporarily took on human form, but that's not God's form, it's human form.  If that's not God's normal form, then why is it ours, if we were created in His image?  That whole "unknowable God" idea doesn't fit with scripture.

Why did Jesus call God our Father (John 20:17)?  If God isn't the Father of our spirits, why isn't calling Him God good enough?  If God is just our "figurative" Father, why call Him that at all?  What is so defective about the title of "God" that Christ felt the need to add "Father" to it?  Why did Jesus quote (John 10:34) the Psalm (82:6) which refers to humans as gods?  If that Psalm is wrong and we are not children of God, capable of one day becoming like Him, why would Christ quote it in defense of His own claim to be the Son of God?  And frankly, if God is this unknowable transcendent being, why come at all?  Or why as "Son", why not as "God"?

If he can work magic like creating something from nothing and still not be responsible for evil, why all the nonsense of mortality?  What purpose do mortality and resurrection serve if not to advance in the way God Himself advanced?  Mortality makes no sense in this way of thinking.  Those who believe this system will just say God wanted it this way, so it is.  How does that explain anything?  At least we have an explanation that explains eternity past, mortality present, and eternity future, worlds without end!

In short, this philosophy / interpretation explains nothing.  It waves magic wands and says, "this is the truth, just swallow it and be happy".

2 hours ago, CommanderSouth said:

Second is that of us (the church).  Which says God is here.  He exists as part of matter, space, and time.  He is like us, some form of matter, and guides us along the paths he took.  This answers questions of communication and our relationship, but leaves the idea of infinite regress.  It leaves the idea that time itself is both self existent, and also causal, which seems contradictory.

Please explain what you mean by "infinite regress", why you believe our view requires it, and why that's a problem.

What about our beliefs makes time "self existent" and what about it makes time "causal"?  Time is nothing more or less than a mechanism for measuring something.  Note this scripture in the New Testament (just read the bold parts, before or after reading the whole):

Quote

Revelation 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,

6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Apparently, we believe that there will come a point where there will be no time.  Or how about this:

Quote

Alma 40:8 Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men.

My dad's theory was that all is present before God (D&C 38:2, Moses 1:6) (whether you mean that as time or awareness or sight) because 1. God is omniscient (all-knowing), and 2. It takes God no time to comprehend / understand - if I try to tell you something, time will be required for me to explain it and you to understand it.  God already understands it before I start, ergo, there is no time.  (Don't know that Dad was right, but it sure makes a lot of sense.)

And then there's this:

Quote

D&C 130:4 In answer to the question—Is not the reckoning of God’s time, angel’s time, prophet’s time, and man’s time, according to the planet on which they reside?

That makes it sound like God does measure time - perhaps only when dealing with planets...  IMO, "time" is not terribly important beyond it being a gift given to man so that man would not waste it (as much).

Please explain further what you mean by:

3 hours ago, CommanderSouth said:

"atemporal" temporal universe

What does that mean (in other terms), why do our beliefs require it, and why is it a problem?

3 hours ago, CommanderSouth said:

I know I'm in the weeds, but I appreciate the help, and thoughts

The Holy Ghost is the best weed whacker out there.  Receive the Holy Ghost!

[zil2]

16 minutes ago, zil2 said:

time "self existent"

While reading to make sure I hadn't made any mistakes, this reminded me of this scripture, so here's another to add to the pondering of "time":

Quote

Abraham 5:13 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the time that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die. Now I, Abraham, saw that it was after the Lord’s time, which was after the time of Kolob; for as yet the Gods had not appointed unto Adam his reckoning.

Either there was no concept of time in the Garden of Eden, or for a while, time there was kept based on another star system...

[Carborendum]

I'm not certain that the premise is true.  But if I were to take it hypothetically...

Shakespeare doesn't exist in any of his plays or poems. Nowhere in his works will you find a character named William Shakespeare.

[Vort]

2 hours ago, LDSGator said:

If you are interested in this get an introductory book on Thomas Aquinas-he addressed the issues you are dealing with.  

And Augustine, of course, who is pretty much the foundation of modern (non-Restoration) Christianity.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

The truth is not to be found in "good arguments" one way or the other. Those all come from fallen mankind who, really, aren't all that smart as a whole.

And those who actually are smart all too often simply end up proving the Book of Mormon's warning: "When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish."

[LDSGator]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

And Augustine, of course, who is pretty much the foundation of modern (non-Restoration) Christianity.

Yup. Him and Paul of Tarsus. 

[Vort]

Just now, LDSGator said:

Yup. Him and Paul of Tarsus. 

Yes, but Paul is the foundation of modern Christianity in a Biblically doctrinal way. Augustine is the champion and rectifier of the highly popular (in intellectual circles) Greek "neo-Platonic" view of how Christian doctrine works. We Latter-day Saints flatly reject most of Augustine's important conclusions, which is why we find ourselves distinctly outside of mainstream Christianity. We are not Augustinians. Paul, on the other hand, we embrace.

[LDSGator]

Just now, Vort said:

Yes, but Paul is the foundation of modern Christianity in a Biblically doctrinal way. Augustine is the champion and rectifier of the highly popular (in intellectual circles) Greek "neo-Platonic" view of how Christian doctrine works. We Latter-day Saints flatly reject most of Augustine's important conclusions, which is why we find ourselves distinctly outside of mainstream Christianity. We are not Augustinians. Paul, on the other hand, we embrace.

Correct. Augustine was the first to attach Christian Philosophy to the old school philosophers.  

Paul was (arguably) the first evangelist. 

[laronius]

What are some good arguments for God existing within matter, space, and time?

The first that comes to mind is the fact that we are created in His image. An image is a reflection. According to my very limited understanding of Catholic belief, man is not even a fuzzy outline of God's image let alone anything of a more detailed reflection. 

[Traveler]

Greetings @CommanderSouth :

I would respond with my understanding – both of scripture and personal experience.   Having been trained in physics I have a background in the science used to describe our universe with dimensional space time.  I also consider myself well versed in LDS doctrines.   A Russian scientist developed a theory concerning advanced civilizations which are now referred to as the Kardashev scale of civilizations.   There has been some enhancements to this scale but in essence the highest-level civilization is able to manipulate and control all the energy of the universe.

What I am putting forth is that there is another theory, beyond what you presented, concerning possibilities for G-d or G-d like civilizations that are theoretically possible within our universe.  Such a civilization would be able to harness blackholes and with such technological ability, able to control and manipulate our universe of dimensional space time.

Let me break this down with a symbolic example.  No creature as we know and define as living (to exist in our universe of space time) is able, of their own resource, to travel faster than the speed of sound.  However, mankind, with the ability to invent and manipulate technology, is able to travel faster than sound.   Which, BTW, puts us somewhere between 0 and 1 on the Kardashev scale.  We have already proven special relativity which demonstrates time is not constant.  In other words, we know how to manipulate time without requiring that we somehow transcend beyond space time.

It is my understanding and belief that evil exists independently from G-d.  I like the explanation by @zil2 but I would add some things.  No unclean thing can exist in the presents of G-d.  This idea is a little ambitious and difficult to understand but in part because we are subjected to evil that we might know by experience the difference between good and evil and through agency make choices concerning the possible outcomes related to good and evil – and this must exist beyond the light or presents of G-d in order to allow that we repent and avoid the inevitable outcome of evil.  It is obvious that modern science (as well as Latter-day revelation) is capable of thinking beyond the possibilities of traditional Christianity and ancient philosophy.

 

The Traveler

[MrShorty]

This has been an interesting question to me for some time.

1) Coincidentally, my podcast list yesterday included The Bible for Normal People episode 270 featuring an Episcopalian (if memory serves) talking about the embodied God of the Old Testament and how that contrasts with the Greek-influenced Christian God. If you are interested in looking at Biblical (especially OT) views of God and how they portray God in embodied, anthropomorphic ways, you might find that interesting.

2) Several years ago, I started a thread here asking about the scope of God's creation (

 ). In many ways, I see your question very similar to trying to determine whether God exists inside of the universe He created or whether or exists outside of the universe. The conversation ranged far and wide, but maybe some thoughts there will trigger some ideas. At the end of the day, as much as it creates a separation between me and God, I find myself leaning towards God existing outside of our universe, mostly because my puny mortal mind has trouble envisioning an embodied God who creates the universe from inside the universe.

A fascinating topic, and I find very little concrete evidence to lead to answers. Mostly, I see lots of speculation. Perhaps somewhere in all of that speculation are ideas that bring us closer to understand God's nature.

[zil2]

22 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

mostly because my puny mortal mind has trouble envisioning an embodied God who creates the universe from inside the universe.

I'm OK with God organizing what exists within the universe.  I'm also OK with there being many universes.  I'm OK with there being a universe of universes. I'm OK with reality being so far beyond our capacity to imagine that we might as well believe that our universe is contained within a locker of someone's bus station, or inside a marble hanging from a cat's collar...

22 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

closer to understand God's nature.

I'm also OK with folk exploring whatever interests them, but...  If one wants to understand God's nature, study the life and teachings of Jesus Christ and do your best to imitate them.

Edited June 29, 2024 by zil2

[CV75]

On 6/28/2024 at 8:30 AM, CommanderSouth said:

In my ongoing grapple with these philosophical/metaphysical concepts, I'm seeing 2 visions of God emerge. 

First is that of "orthodoxy" which says God is separate, transcendent, from all creation.  He exists beyond matter, space, and time.  He is the uncaused cause.  This answers some questions, such as where did we come from.  But it leaves others, like how would we communicate with such a being, or it to us.  This posits the universe had a beginning, and he is the cause.

Second is that of us (the church).  Which says God is here.  He exists as part of matter, space, and time.  He is like us, some form of matter, and guides us along the paths he took.  This answers questions of communication and our relationship, but leaves the idea of infinite regress.  It leaves the idea that time itself is both self existent, and also causal, which seems contradictory.

If you embrace the first, you have to answer the problem of evil.  An all knowing God who made the rules, created all that exists, knowing what would happen.

If you embrace the second, you answer the problem of evil, we're all just self existant free wills being guided by God.  It helps with a lot of things, but an "atemporal" temporal universe seems self contradictory.

I know I'm in the weeds, but I appreciate the help, and thoughts

I think a good argument is, since you comprehend God in your brain, you have the components of His existence in matter, space and time covered. There is no other way you can comprehend Him than the way you are.

[Vort]

What are some good arguments for God existing outside space and time?

[CV75]

24 minutes ago, Vort said:

What are some good arguments for God existing outside space and time?

I think they would be semantic: the portion we do not comprehend in our brains is the portion that could be said to exist outside our frame of reference (Pearl of Great Price calls it reckoning), our personal experience with space and time. We cannot experience space and time outside of that, though by common sense they do so exist. God's reckoning of matter, space and time far exceeds our own, yet He most nimbly and truthfully interfaces with our limited reckoning.

Edited June 29, 2024 by CV75