So what's up with Musk's seeming Nazi-lookalike salute to Trump?

[Vort]

This looks similar to a gesture that my now-missionary son used to do with his gym bros, so maybe it's the rage among the kids. But it looks Nazi. While I don't particularly care what whiny, thin-skinned leftists think, I do care about overall appearances. However much he might have been trying to be edgy, Musk is a highly intelligent man, and knew full well that this looked like a Nazi salute. Anyone care to give some context to explain away what this clearly looks like to any 21st-century adult Westerner?

[Ironhold]

15 minutes ago, Vort said:

This looks similar to a gesture that my now-missionary son used to do with his gym bros, so maybe it's the rage among the kids. But it looks Nazi. While I don't particularly care what whiny, thin-skinned leftists think, I do care about overall appearances. However much he might have been trying to be edgy, Musk is a highly intelligent man, and knew full well that this looked like a Nazi salute. Anyone care to give some context to explain away what this clearly looks like to any 21st-century adult Westerner?

Official statement made by the ADL on their Twitter feed. 

It seems that the ADL is writing this one off as him perhaps awkwardly waving to or gesturing at some people, and so they're letting it go until anything further emerges to suggest otherwise. 

[Ironhold]

There's a full video clip of it in context. 

He uses his hand to cover his heart, then gestures with it, producing the odd angle. 

So yeah, looks like an overly emotive gesture. 

[Carborendum]

10 hours ago, Vort said:

Anyone care to give some context to explain away what this clearly looks like to any 21st-century adult Westerner?

It wasn't a Nazi salute.  It was a Roman salute.  It means exactly what he said just afterward.  "My heart goes out to you."

If people weren't on edge to look for any misstep and just accept it for what it was, then there would be no controversy.

[Phoenix_person]

I'm curious if that gesture is something he's done before with an audience. And if so, why did no one tell him that maybe it looks like.... something else? His enthusiastic support of the German AfD party doesn't exactly help him beat any allegations either.

And I'd encourage you to look up the 20th Century origins of the Nazi salute. It started not in Hitler's Germany, but in Mussolini's Italy. A strong argument can be made that 20th Century fascists co-opted the salute the same way they did the swastika of ancient Eastern cultures. I'm trying not to make assumptions, but I have a very hard time believing that Musk was oblivious to how it was going to look, which makes me wonder why he did it anyway.

BTW, it's also worth brushing up on the "reichs", of which Nazi Germany was supposed to be the third. What was the First Reich, I wonder? 🤔

Edited January 21 by Phoenix_person

[mirkwood]

It was weird, but I think @Carborendum got it right.  Anything else is the left trying to go histrionic over something...anything...

[Carborendum]

2 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

BTW, it's also worth brushing up on the "reichs", of which Nazi Germany was supposed to be the third. What was the First Reich, I wonder? 🤔

It is common for people to believe the first was the Roman Empire (i.e. under Julius Caesar).  But no.

First: The Holy Roman Empire (under Constantine, after the Empire had become Christianized).
Second: The German Empire.

The Nazi salute was from a normally dropped hand to go "straight up and out."
Elon's was "across the chest".

Many people have difficulty recognizing details.  That's why people had a problem with:

They were simply waving their hands.  When joking around they swayed in unison (for the most part).  No clicking of heels.  No straight up and out.  Just waving their hands.  And it somehow became a controversy.

At the end of the day, there was no "there" there.

Interesting trivia.  There really is no evidence that the Romans ever used such a salute.  But the gesture has been popularized in film to the point that people have described it as a simple pledge of allegiance.

[Carborendum]

Oh my gosh!  I can't believe a Jew would make the Nazi salute!!!

[The Folk Prophet]

 

Nazi!!!

[NeuroTypical]

8 years, and the left hasn't learned a single dang thing. 

Everyone remember how the "OK" sign was an alt-right or white nationalist dogwhistle?  Dustbin of history, that one.

@Phoenix_person, you folks need to get some new material.  Identity politics and seeing fascist dogwhistles everywhere didn't get you anywhere in 2016, and it won't get you anywhere now.   After he got shot in the head and raised his fist in defiance and yelled "fight fight fight", it really wasn't calling endless hoardes of camo-wearing beer-gut-having ar-15 totin' boogaloos to implement their plans either.  For pete's sake.  I know y'all are scared, but y'all are also smarter than that.  At least be more imaginative.

Another way of looking at it: If Trump et. al. was gonna go all dictator on us, he would have done it 8 years ago.  There is literally no valid reason why he would lie in wait for a first term, to spring his nefarious plot on us in his 2nd.   That's not how it works.

Edited January 21 by NeuroTypical

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Oh my gosh!  I can't believe a Jew would make the Nazi salute!!!

Fun fact: Cracklin' Rose is a song about a man and a bottle of cheap wine.

[zil2]

11 minutes ago, Vort said:

Fun fact: Cracklin' Rose is a song about a man and a bottle of cheap wine.

Oh yes, that does sound fun.

[Phoenix_person]

8 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

8 years, and the left hasn't learned a single dang thing. 

Everyone remember how the "OK" sign was an alt-right or white nationalist dogwhistle?  Dustbin of history, that one.

@Phoenix_person, you folks need to get some new material.  Identity politics and seeing fascist dogwhistles everywhere didn't get you anywhere in 2016, and it won't get you anywhere now.   After he got shot in the head and raised his fist in defiance and yelled "fight fight fight", it really wasn't calling endless hoardes of camo-wearing beer-gut-having ar-15 totin' boogaloos to implement their plans either.  For pete's sake.  I know y'all are scared, but y'all are also smarter than that.  At least be more imaginative.

I'm beginning to be of the opinion that at least some of what we've come to call dog whistles is far right Republicans trying to troll the left. Political discourse is turning uglier by the day, and I'll confess that I sometimes get swept up in the hysteria. 

Having said that, I don't know how else to interpret what I saw last night. If it wasn't the world's loudest dogwhistle, then it was the world's most tonedeaf troll job, and the fact that I wasn't the one who started this thread tells me it worked exactly as intended. It was just barely ambiguous enough to create deniability. Is that the sort of behavior that you want to see at the highest levels of government? Say what you want about Kamala (and I'll probably agree with most of it, tbh), but we wouldn't be sitting here debating Roman vs Nazi salutes on day 1 of a Harris presidency.

I know I've been talking a lot lately about the looming threat of a class war. That Luigi fellow scared a lot of very powerful people, and energized a lot of very desperate people. A lot of what we're seeing makes sense in that context. That's why I came here to give my 2 cents on the "Roman" salute, but I'm ultimately more concerned with some of the EOs Trump already repealed. Seriously, look at the list, there's some head-scratchers in there, like EO 14087. Blanket-repealing your predecessor's policies is a bad policy, no matter who's doing it. And while it's fun to make fun of Elon, we're hyperfocused on protecting ourselves, our immigrant neighbors, and our trans friends from a Trump presidency as much as possible. And the harsh reality we're facing is that we can no longer rely on the Democratic Party to be the means to keep him in check. That scares me, and it should scare conservatives more than pronouns do. The two-party system's biggest flaw is that one party can't afford to be weak. That's why I'm glad to live in a purple state instead of a solid blue one. Checks and balances. I don't think either major party cares about that on a national level anymore. I'm trying to wait 10 more days to swear off Democrats for good, but they aren't making it easy.

8 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Another way of looking at it: If Trump et. al. was gonna go all dictator on us, he would have done it 8 years ago.  

Why? It makes more sense to lean into it when you know you can't be reelected. 

[NeuroTypical]

I can't really find anything to argue with in that last post.  I think you're spot on about Luigi.  And the trolling.  Not even from Republicans, but just folks who like to troll.  I get the genuine stress/anxiety/fear that must be present in undocumented/illegal folks.  Few things suck like one guy extending a welcome hand, and the next guy saying "lol j/k get on the damn bus before we lock you up" sucks - especially if you have family with you.  And I'm at my unhappiest politically when any one side has full power, D or R. 

But Trump doesn't take 8 years to start building a building.  He starts once he's made the decision.  Narcissists aren't know for shadowy plotting or patience.  Right?  Dude is the yourfired guy who once ran pro wrestling and beauty pageants.   He's interested in energizing people with a show and his eternal lasting legacy.  None of that suggests he's the next hitler.

Edited January 21 by NeuroTypical

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Fun fact: Cracklin' Rose is a song about a man and a bottle of cheap wine.

Dude!  I thought I was cultured...

I've listened to Neil diamond for (I'm guessing) over 40 years.  I've never heard that song before.  I have now.

[mirkwood]

 

[mirkwood]

 

 

[Phoenix_person]

5 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

 But Trump doesn't take 8 years to start building a building.  He starts once he's made the decision.  Narcissists aren't know for shadowy plotting or patience.  Right?  Dude is the yourfired guy who once ran pro wrestling and beauty pageants.   He's interested in energizing people with a show and his eternal lasting legacy.  None of that suggests he's the next hitler.

There aren't many differences between running a business and running a government, but differences do exist. One of the key differences is the existence of systems of accountability. In government, we call it separation of powers. In business, you have government regulations, and we know how Trump feels about those. As I said before, it didn't make sense to stir the pot too much in his first term. He didn't exactly win 2016 by a landslide, after all. And losing the House in 2018 didn't do him any favors. He (or someone he listens to) knows the differences between politics and business and wielding power in each respective arena. What worries me is how disposable he views the protections built into both government and business. Government employees who took the same oath of service Trump and I did deserve better than to be treated as political hires (who can now be fired for purely political reasons). One of the protections built into our government (well, not anymore) is that it's not supposed to be easy for the "You're fired" guy from TV to just come in and fire people who weren't directly tied to the previous administration.

Edited January 22 by Phoenix_person

[Phoenix_person]

The good news is that another protection is through the courts, and the ACLU has had a busy day.

[Phoenix_person]

Cool still shots of people waving, btw.

 

 

[JohnsonJones]

On 1/20/2025 at 6:39 PM, Vort said:

This looks similar to a gesture that my now-missionary son used to do with his gym bros, so maybe it's the rage among the kids. But it looks Nazi. While I don't particularly care what whiny, thin-skinned leftists think, I do care about overall appearances. However much he might have been trying to be edgy, Musk is a highly intelligent man, and knew full well that this looked like a Nazi salute. Anyone care to give some context to explain away what this clearly looks like to any 21st-century adult Westerner?

 

It's unclear to me.

The first thought I had is something that would be highly unpopular among Elon Musk worshippers in the forum.

However, from the same people that I've talked to (who have worked with him somewhat), I would say that Elon acts extremely autistic sometimes.  This means that he may not be all to sharp in his personal skills and his relations with others.

It could truly be that he meant what he said and was trying to show it (in a way an autistic individual may think is appropriate in public, but most would see it as inappropriate).

It appears he is doing it from a very heartfelt manner, and he does appear to be trying to grab his heart and show it is out to everyone out there.

On the otherhand...

Is he really that out of touch?

The timing, the mannerism, and how he did it is exactly the same way that some clips of Hitler show him doing it.  That's awfully suspicious.

Furthermore, with his recent comments regarding German Politics and it's linking to the Neo Nazi movements there...it's particularly poor timing and many would see this as confirmation that he actually is supporting those who are supremacists there...and obviously now in the US. 

 

Regardless of what the reason was, it is now seen as being done in extremely poor tastes.  This shouldn't be something discussed on the first day of a Presidency when so much more is going on (for example, Trump just signed the EO to do away with Birthright Citizenship. 

Protecting the meaning and value of American Citizenship

This should turn interesting very quickly.  22 states have already filed a lawsuit about this.  Many other things are afoot in the government. 

[mirkwood]

Wag the dog.

[Phoenix_person]

22 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Wag the dog.

Yes, Trump (and the Dem Party too) has always been very good at keeping both sides shouting at each other while he sits back and laughs with the buddies he's enriched with his presidency. Of all the lies Trump sold you, the biggest one is that he's a man of the people.

That's not a reason to ignore Nazis, and it's not as if there haven't been other red flags with Musk. I'm looking at this, but I'm also looking at what Trump's doing behind the scenes while we make muskrat memes. Multitasking is a useful skill. So is recognizing what's a distraction and what's actually worth examining further. 

Edited January 22 by Phoenix_person

[mirkwood]

Trump and Musk are not Nazi's.

[Phoenix_person]

2 hours ago, mirkwood said:

Trump and Musk are not Nazi's.

I earnestly do not believe that Trump is. He's very good at manipulating people, which puts him in the category of dangerous, but not a Nazi.

As for Musk, as I said, there have been other signs. 

https://www.thelocal.de/20160823/afd-in-leipzig-accused-of-using-nazi-symbols-on-campaign-car

@NeuroTypical and I have had various discussions about dog whistles. Most of the Nazi ones are well-documented and outlawed in Germany, which is how we know what to look for here in the States. I have a very hard time believing that Musk is legitimately oblivious to the AfD's problematic history. And if he truly is, then he has no business anywhere near our government.

https://www.reuters.com/article/world/or-gas-them-germanys-far-right-afd-fires-official-over-migrant-comment-idUSKBN26J2JS/

Yes, the dude was fired. And the license plate dude faced consequences as well. That's still two Nazis (that we know about) in a regional political party in a country the size of Montana. If these were state-level GOP officials (because I don't think it's entirely fair to compare a political party from a country the size of Montana to either of our major national parties) would you feel comfortable voting for local Republicans? The Minnesota DFL would have a very hard time earning another vote from me in those circumstances. And yet, this is the party that Musk thinks is the future of Germany. There's wagging the dog, and then there's paying attention.

I know I said that I was going to stop raiding the sewer that is X, but I don't think a lot of people who don't follow his content there really have any concept of how chronically online this man is (and considering how chronically online I get sometimes, that's really saying something). I've been told to stop wasting energy on people like me (solid advice, tbh). Well, someone like me is now in the ear of the President of the United States.

Modern Nazis usually (🧐) don't out themselves deliberately, but there are always hints. I had strong suspicions before Monday's theatrics.

Edited January 22 by Phoenix_person