I'll just open a potential can of worms... Can ICE enter temples?

[Carborendum]

I was just pondering the apocryphal quote:

Quote

You cannot invade mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass.

That isn't what should frighten them.

The frightening thing about the US is that we know this fact and are still willing to live here.  That's how crazy we are.   

The rest of the world knows both of these facts and yet they are willing to risk their lives to illegally immigrate here.  That's how crazy they are.

Edited January 28 by Carborendum

[Just_A_Guy]

On 1/27/2025 at 12:43 PM, NeuroTypical said:

Ok, @Carborendum's story beats my wife's "Just got married and almost missed our honeymoon flight to Disneyworld because last name on tickets and Drivers License didn't match" story.

Sheesh. 

For folks wanting a taste of such things, I'd recommend:

- Cheech Marin's 1987 movie Born in East LA: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092690/

- That King of the Hill episode where Hank, Dale, and Khan got caught on the wrong side of the Mexican border and had to break the law to get back home.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtiAGPV7nro

 

Also beats mine from 2023 when I crossed back into the US from Canada after buying a boat there.  We expected (and got) lots of customs paperwork; but apparently there’s another person out there with my name and birthdate who . . . lacks my sterling moral character and is on an international watchlist of some sort.  It took them a couple hours to figure out I’m not him.  Ultimately I was saved by the fact that I (unlike my evil doppelgänger) am not Latino and I (also unlike my evil doppelgänger, and in spite of @LDSGator’s relentless efforts) have not gotten a neck tattoo.

Edited January 29 by Just_A_Guy

[Carborendum]

OK, new information.  I just opened up my lockbox last night with all my vital documents.  My Korean passport and visa stamp book were both there.  Guess what I found!!!

The passports were already expired by the time we took that trip.  They were not good for 10 years (like US passports).  They were good for 5 years.  I have no idea why my dad thought this was acceptable.  I could have been stuck in Mexico or Korea for my whole life!

Yeah, yeah.  All's well that ends well.  But that was just a shock.

[NeuroTypical]

11 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 It took them a couple hours to figure out I’m not him.

I remain unconvinced.

[NeuroTypical]

23 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

I remain unconvinced.

Actually, there are two folks of my name in Colorado.  One of them is me, the other one occasionally makes the news for being one of the last people on Colorado's death row before they dumped the death penalty.  Sometimes there's a news story about him as he's off filing lawsuits and appeals and stuff, and I come in to work and count the # of people looking sideways at me.

[Carborendum]

Quote

On January 7, 2011, Colorado Governor Bill Ritter grant­ed a full and uncon­di­tion­al posthu­mous par­don to Joe Arridy, who had been con­vict­ed and exe­cut­ed as an accom­plice to a mur­der that occurred in 1936. The par­don came 72 years after Arridy’s exe­cu­tion and is the first such par­don in Colorado his­to­ry. A press release from the gov­er­nor’s office stat­ed, “[A]n over­whelm­ing body of evi­dence indi­cates the 23-year-old Arridy was inno­cent, includ­ing false and coerced con­fes­sions, the like­li­hood that Arridy was not in Pueblo at the time of the killing, and an admis­sion of guilt by some­one else.” The gov­er­nor also point­ed to Arridy’s intel­lec­tu­al dis­abil­i­ties. He had an IQ of 46 and func­tioned like a tod­dler. The gov­er­nor said, “Granting a posthu­mous par­don is an extra­or­di­nary rem­e­dy. But the trag­ic con­vic­tion of Mr. Arridy and his sub­se­quent exe­cu­tion on Jan. 6, 1939, mer­it such relief based on the great like­li­hood that Mr. Arridy was, in fact, inno­cent of the crime for which he was exe­cut­ed, and his severe men­tal dis­abil­i­ty at the time of his tri­al and exe­cu­tion. Pardoning Mr. Arridy can­not undo this trag­ic event in Colorado his­to­ry. It is in the inter­ests of jus­tice and sim­ple decen­cy, how­ev­er, to restore his good name.”

I have no idea how many times this sort of thing happens.  But it is enough that we know it is not just "an unfortunate situation."  The interrogators are trained to get a confession whether the person is guilty or not.  And they get them from innocent people far too often.

Quote

According to research, coerced confessions are discovered in a significant portion of wrongful conviction cases, with studies indicating that around 25% of people exonerated by DNA evidence had previously given a false confession, suggesting that coerced confessions are not uncommon in criminal investigations. 

Sleep deprivation and false confessions | PNAS

Prof Gisli H Gudjonsson: 40 years’ worth of scientific research shows anyone can be coerced into a false confession

False confessions, new data and law enforcement interrogations: Research findings - The Journalist's Resource

False Confessions: Causes, Consequences, and Implications for Reform - Saul M. Kassin, 2014

How much time is spent training interrogators about the ethics of getting false confessions?

How could a guy with a 46 IQ get the death penalty for being an accessory?

[LDSGator]

36 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

How much time is spent training interrogators about the ethics of getting false confessions?

Do you honestly think they care about “ethics”? 

 

36 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

How could a guy with a 46 IQ get the death penalty for being an accessory?

Bloodlust. Not being funny. 

[NeuroTypical]

This happened in the 1930's?  Very much a different time, different culture, different people with different values on life. 

I've heard the notion from multiple WWII red blooded American vets: One thing they liked about hitler was he "emptied out the prisons and insane asylums".  Our grandparents and great grandparents thought such things.  

We have to be careful drawing analogies between interrogators then and now.   Without a deep understanding of American history and culture and how it has morphed and changed over time, we're basically just talking out of our butts. 

Edited January 30 by NeuroTypical

[Carborendum]

52 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

We have to be careful drawing analogies between interrogators then and now.  

Fair enough.  But that doesn't change the fact that these things continue to happen.  But we don't have "40 years of historical data" that only covers the past 5 years.

Point being: It continues to happen today.  

City of Fontana reaches $900K settlement with Tom Perez, who was pressured to confess he killed his father, who was alive - ABC11 Raleigh-Durham

If you look at the details of the interrogation, it was completely unconscionable.  They made him confess to a murder that never happened.  And they threatened the guy's dog.

Quote

Perez says no one from the city has ever apologized. Nor is there any indication there was an internal investigation into why detective after detective, supervisor after supervisor, allowed the questioning of Perez to continue for hour after hour.

Since then, many of the police officers involved have been promoted. And Perez feels there has still been no explanation for why he was treated so badly.

Edited January 30 by Carborendum

[mirkwood]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Fair enough.  But that doesn't change the fact that these things continue to happen.  But we don't have "40 years of historical data" that only covers the past 5 years.

Point being: It continues to happen today.  

City of Fontana reaches $900K settlement with Tom Perez, who was pressured to confess he killed his father, who was alive - ABC11 Raleigh-Durham

If you look at the details of the interrogation, it was completely unconscionable.  They made him confess to a murder that never happened.  And they threatened the guy's dog.

 

I hope they hang him those officers/detectives.  I mean, cops do this ALL the time.  Just constantly.

[JohnsonJones]

I've only read the opening post, but my thoughts are that the Federal Government can enter temples, which would include ICE.

One of the Fundementalist churches in Texas (LDS Fundamentalist) had a big blow up a few years ago (around...15 or 16 years?).  They built a compound and a Temple in Texas and it was raided by government agents.  Their Prophet and President (Warren Jeffs) got tossed in jail and a bunch of other stuff.  They had a program on the News at that time where one of their Relief Society Presidency guided us through their lives and talked about their children. 

If the US government could raid that compound and their temple, I have no doubt they could raid an LDS Temple if they so wished.  Hopefully with the correct warrants and other items in order, but I think if they wanted to, they could absolutely do a raid on one of our Temples.

However...why would they want to?

Whether or not you may find an Illegal immigrant in an LDS Temple is bad gamble.  The chances are low at any one moment that you'd find an illegal immigrant there, and there are no really predictable schedules around it.

It would be far easier to raid a meeting house of Spanish Speaking Wards or branches, use member rolls obtained using a warrants to see where they actually live and their contact information, or many other resources within the church to go after illegal immigrants which would be far easier than trying to go legally into an LDS Temple. 

[Ironhold]

22 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I've only read the opening post, but my thoughts are that the Federal Government can enter temples, which would include ICE.

One of the Fundementalist churches in Texas (LDS Fundamentalist) had a big blow up a few years ago (around...15 or 16 years?).  They built a compound and a Temple in Texas and it was raided by government agents.  Their Prophet and President (Warren Jeffs) got tossed in jail and a bunch of other stuff.  They had a program on the News at that time where one of their Relief Society Presidency guided us through their lives and talked about their children. 

If the US government could raid that compound and their temple, I have no doubt they could raid an LDS Temple if they so wished.  Hopefully with the correct warrants and other items in order, but I think if they wanted to, they could absolutely do a raid on one of our Temples.

However...why would they want to?

Whether or not you may find an Illegal immigrant in an LDS Temple is bad gamble.  The chances are low at any one moment that you'd find an illegal immigrant there, and there are no really predictable schedules around it.

It would be far easier to raid a meeting house of Spanish Speaking Wards or branches, use member rolls obtained using a warrants to see where they actually live and their contact information, or many other resources within the church to go after illegal immigrants which would be far easier than trying to go legally into an LDS Temple. 

Speaking as a Texan?

There were a *lot* of irregularities in regards to not just the raid, but the aftermath. 

Things were so bad that many of the agents who raided the facility and at least one prosecutor could have themselves gone to jail. Yes, prosecutor. Past a certain point at least one prosecutor *literally* just drew up a boilerplate list of charges and used a word processing document to swap out the names of the adults being charged. This was dangerously close to "I'm accusing you of these crimes simply for your religious membership", something that is very much frowned upon by the Constitution.

The whole matter was so badly botched that Jeffs could have potentially gotten the whole thing tossed if he'd have gotten an aggressive enough lawyer. 

Even some non-members I knew at the time were forced to admit how horribly sideways the matter had gotten.

[NeuroTypical]

7 minutes ago, Ironhold said:

The whole matter was so badly botched that Jeffs could have potentially gotten the whole thing tossed if he'd have gotten an aggressive enough lawyer. 

Something I posted in 2017.  Jeffs figures the CIA was in on it as well:

 

 

Whenever Jeffs issues a new revelation, my ward gets a copy (addressed to a former bishop).  Current bishop knows my weird hobbies, and gave it to me, because he rocks. 

In case anyone is interested, it mentions the following:
- Celestial sun-star orbs, like Onidi
- a quorum of Eloheim of Elohim
- "By morrow midnight, over one billion and seven hundred million murder spirit people on now world" are gonna croak
- Instructions to go look at Estonia and Latvia, because half of the population are supposedly missing
- We're exhorted to read the Pearl of Great Price.
- President Trump is urged, by name, to "now do full deliverance of my now innocent Keyholder"
- The CIA pays a judge a yearly bribe of $1,500,000 to keep Jeffs behind bars.
- Verse 25 reads: "CIA was, and now is not. Amen."

I asked the bishopric if anyone wanted to switch teams and start sending our surplus tithes up to these guys instead, nobody seemed too interested.  Which surprises me, because Jeffs' revelations are so much more entertaining to read.

[mordorbund]

15 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Verse 25 reads: "CIA was, and now is not. Amen."

Gabbard and DOGE are Cyruses?!?! COOL!!!!

 

(Cyri, perhaps?)

[NeuroTypical]

Pretty basic principles, but still a lot to read here:

https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders/2025/01/30/church-statement-principles-guidelines-immigration-law-love-family/

[NeuroTypical]

The official statement is even shorter: https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-reaffirms-immigration-principles-love-law-family-unity

 

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has reiterated principles and communicated guidelines to local leaders in the United States regarding immigration issues. 

As disciples of Jesus Christ, the following principles guide the Church’s approach:

* The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints obeys the law.

* We follow Jesus Christ by loving our neighbors. The Savior taught that the meaning of “neighbor” includes all of God’s children.

* We seek to provide basic food and clothing, as our capacity allows, to those in need, regardless of their immigration status. We are especially concerned about keeping families together.

The guidance closely follows statements made previously on these issues, which are available on the Church website.

The Office of General Counsel (OGC) has created guidelines to help local leaders comply with federal laws that criminalize harboring, transporting, or encouraging undocumented immigrants to remain in the United States. OGC also carefully tracks legal developments to ensure local outreach and area-initiated humanitarian activities are appropriate. Local leaders should be in contact with the Office of General Counsel for further information.

 

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

How does an illegal alien get a temple recommend? Seems rather dishonest and a violation of ones covenants to break into our country. It is breaking the law.

Edited February 18 by Emmanuel Goldstein

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

How does an illegal alien get a temple recommend? Seems rather dishonest and a violation of ones covenants to break into our country. It is breaking the law.

Here are the temple recommend questions: 

Quote

Do you have faith in and a testimony of God, the Eternal Father; His Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost?
 
Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Jesus Christ and of His role as your Savior and Redeemer?
 
Do you have a testimony of the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ?
 
Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the prophet, seer, and revelator and as the only person on the earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys?

Do you sustain the members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators?

Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local leaders of the Church?
 
The Lord has said that all things are to be “done in cleanliness” before Him (Doctrine and Covenants 42:41).

Do you strive for moral cleanliness in your thoughts and behavior?

Do you obey the law of chastity?
 
Do you follow the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ in your private and public behavior with members of your family and others?
 
Do you support or promote any teachings, practices, or doctrine contrary to those of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
 
Do you strive to keep the Sabbath day holy, both at home and at church; attend your meetings; prepare for and worthily partake of the sacrament; and live your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?
 
Do you strive to be honest in all that you do?
 
Are you a full-tithe payer?

For new members seeking a limited-use recommend: Are you willing to obey the commandment to pay tithing?
 
Do you understand and obey the Word of Wisdom?
 
Do you have any financial or other obligations to a former spouse or to children?

If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?
 
Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple, including wearing the temple garment as instructed in the endowment?
 
Are there serious sins in your life that need to be resolved with priesthood authorities as part of your repentance?
 
Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord’s house and participate in temple ordinances?

Can you point out which question you might find problematic, and explain why?  The questions dealing with laws are the law of chastity, and laws of the gospel. 

From what I've heard from our church leaders for quite some time now, worthiness doesn't mean perfection.  It doesn't mean we've necessarily got our lives together.  It seems they are happier with us in the temple than out of it.  Even if some things in our lives aren't totally aligned with the current culture or legal landscape in which we happen to live.   Especially if some things in our lives are out of whack.

Edited February 18 by NeuroTypical

[LDSGator]

4 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

From what I've heard from our church leaders for quite some time now, worthiness doesn't mean perfection.  It doesn't mean we've necessarily got our lives together.  It seems they are happier with us in the temple than out of it.  Even if some things in our lives aren't totally aligned with the current culture or legal landscape in which we happen to live.   Especially if some things in our lives are out of whack.

Our leaders seem to understand nuance far better than we do.