The Lords Prayer

[HaggisShuu]

3 Nephi 13:

Quote

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen, for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them, for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of before ye ask him.

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

11 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

12 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

13 For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.

I converted from an Anglican background where this was always the go to prayer of choice for any situation, and I find I have not said it once since converting.

My wife and I listened to a sister give the world's longest closing prayer on Sunday (which we jokingly named the closing talk) which caused me to do some reflection in regards to the above passage.

The guidance here seems quite clear, got knows what we need, and what we want, so keep your prayers short, and simple, giving glory to God, to avoid being vain and mistakingly believing that your long and repetitive speakings will make you more heard. It helped resolve some personal questions, encouraging a focus on sincere simplicity. 

So why, if this passage found in the book of Mormon states "After this manner therefore pray ye:" is the reciting of this prayer not only rarely taught, but actively discouraged? (It may not be universally but it was for me when I was taught by the missionaries as it was "impersonal"). 

[NeuroTypical]

We're not fans of "rote" prayers.

Rote: A memorizing process using routine or repetition, often without full attention or comprehension.

Since we consider prayer to be communicating directly with our Heavenly Father, we try to hold up our end of the conversation by actually forming and expressing our own thoughts, rather than following a script or performing a ceremony.  Prayer isn't symbolic, it's genuine uncomplicated talking to God.

So we're given a basic outline of what we should be praying for, the reasons, the stuff to talk about.  But then we put it into our own words. 

[Carborendum]

20 minutes ago, HaggisShuu said:

So why, if this passage found in the book of Mormon states "After this manner therefore pray ye:" is the reciting of this prayer not only rarely taught, but actively discouraged? (It may not be universally but it was for me when I was taught by the missionaries as it was "impersonal"). 

I think we recite this about as often as an average scripture.  I've heard parts of it given in talks and lessons.  Not everyone can quote a passage of this length from memory.  But parts of it at a time?  Probably.

There are some prayers which we've been instructed to use for specific sacraments word-for-word.  Apart from that, the use of The Lord's Prayer as our personal prayer may fall under the category of "vain repetitions" which is precisely what the Savior was warning against when he gave this example.  It was not an injunction to speak the exact same words again and again.  It was an example of the principles of making a meaningful, personal prayer between ourselves and our Father.

That said, the same could be said of so many prayers I've heard from pretty much anyone.  They all seem to use the same words.  They all seem to say the same things.  The point of the sermon was not necessarily repeating the exact words the Savior used, but to make sure that our prayers actually mean something.

I've been irked oh-so-often when I hear a person really think about what they desire to pray about, only to rush through the closing "in the name of..." so quickly that I couldn't really understand what was said if I didn't already know what he meant.  That. to me, reeks of "speaking the Lord's name in vain."

 

[mikbone]

Imagine calling you kids in college and having them tell you the same exact message every time.

Hard pass.

When we pray in public, it should be pertinent to the place and circumstance.   I don’t what to hear a story or any sense of virtue signaling of your or anyones righteousness of library of knowledge.  I appreciate a sincere prayer.  Children are great examples.

In your personal prayers, go for it.  You do you.  

[HaggisShuu]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

We're not fans of "rote" prayers.

Rote: A memorizing process using routine or repetition, often without full attention or comprehension.

Since we consider prayer to be communicating directly with our Heavenly Father, we try to hold up our end of the conversation by actually forming and expressing our own thoughts, rather than following a script or performing a ceremony.  Prayer isn't symbolic, it's genuine uncomplicated talking to God.

So we're given a basic outline of what we should be praying for, the reasons, the stuff to talk about.  But then we put it into our own words. 

I respect this position, but, Christ instituted the sacrament prayers, and we offer those as rote prayers. Yet, when studied and paid due attention, they are some of the most powerful tools in the churches ordinance arsenal. By replacing every plural pronoun with "I", "me" etc, and considering the effect this has on your life as you renew your covenants it becomes so much more than just a vain repetition. 

Virtually every faith considers prayer to be a form of direct communication. But I guarantee, everybody, at some point, has been guilty of offering vain repetitions even when forming their own words. It's so easy to say the same prayer with slightly different words day in, day out. Or to offer the most outlandishly long prayer in a sacrament meeting. 

My question is why is not the lords prayer not given a place in our faith, like the sacrament prayer has been, when the wording of the passage is quite clear. I think there is value in remembering this passage, as a blueprint for prayer if nothing else. 

I think there is absolutely room for personal prayer, Jesus offered unique prayers, and if this was to be the only prayer allowed, then our conferences would begin and end with it, which is clearly not the case. But there is value in memorising and reciting rote prayers, when you study and insert yourself into it. and there is value in their simplicity. 
 

Frankly, I feel this prayer doesn't get enough respect, and its value ignored because it's regarded as impersonal, or improper. 
 

 

 

[HaggisShuu]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I think we recite this about as often as an average scripture.  I've heard parts of it given in talks and lessons.  Not everyone can quote a passage of this length from memory.  But parts of it at a time?  Probably.

There are some prayers which we've been instructed to use for specific sacraments word-for-word.  Apart from that, the use of The Lord's Prayer as our personal prayer may fall under the category of "vain repetitions" which is precisely what the Savior was warning against when he gave this example.  It was not an injunction to speak the exact same words again and again.  It was an example of the principles of making a meaningful, personal prayer between ourselves and our Father.

That said, the same could be said of so many prayers I've heard from pretty much anyone.  They all seem to use the same words.  They all seem to say the same things.  The point of the sermon was not necessarily repeating the exact words the Savior used, but to make sure that our prayers actually mean something.

I've been irked oh-so-often when I hear a person really think about what they desire to pray about, only to rush through the closing "in the name of..." so quickly that I couldn't really understand what was said if I didn't already know what he meant.  That. to me, reeks of "speaking the Lord's name in vain."

 

I think the crux of the issue I was trying to get at, is that the prayer is a simple reminder, to love and respect God, repent, and seek his protection. I think some prayers become so convoluted with nonsense at times, that these "plain and precious truths" are drowned out with noise. But this passage (in my experience at least) has almost been shunned and discouraged from use. 

[LDSGator]

Catholic background here. Like you I also had to adjust to not having rote prayers. You aren’t alone bro. 

[zil2]

Given this, which I think we can take as fact:

5 minutes ago, HaggisShuu said:

But I guarantee, everybody, at some point, has been guilty of offering vain repetitions even when forming their own words. It's so easy to say the same prayer with slightly different words day in, day out.

What makes you think that this:

7 minutes ago, HaggisShuu said:

But there is value in memorising and reciting rote prayers, when you study and insert yourself into it. and there is value in their simplicity. 

...will not hasten the devolution into vain repetition?  I mean, it sounds like you're literally suggesting that we should repeat the same words, outside of an ordinance (which is the only place I'm aware of where the Church repeats the same words).  If repeating words we haven't intentionally memorized for repetition can so easily become vain, it seems like repeating words we have intentionally memorized for repetition can more easily become vain.

To put it another way, it seems harder to insert personal meaning into memorized words than into ad hoc words.

Also, I feel the need to emphasize the phrase, "After this manner".  It doesn't say, "recite these exact words".  It says, "follow this pattern".

Finally, there is absolutely nothing in the universe outside yourself stopping you from making use of this prayer in your personal life.  You could even do that and share your experiences with others (if they're willing to read or listen).  And if you're going to, I recommend you add two words that I saw in an alternate translation, which I think makes a lot more sense:

Quote

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Evil isn't a thing to be delivered from - it's a thing not to do (though one could think of this as repentance, but it's sure a deflective way to repent).  But "the evil one" - whooo boy, now that's someone to be delivered from, and the one that is tempting us, and the one who wanted to take away God's kingdom, power, and glory - so now the "For..." makes sense and it gives me more to think about when I'm praying - like whether my desires equate to wanting God's kingdom, power, and glory (for my ends rather than His).

 

Sorry, nope, that wasn't final, this is: You've mentioned multiple times the long prayer spoken by another.  I wasn't there.  I didn't hear it.  Even if I had been there and heard it, I can't read minds or know hearts.  And I don't think you can either, so maybe extend some grace to this sister and let it go?

[zil2]

Apparently that wasn't final either.  Something I listened to yesterday has gotten me thinking about praise and worship, and in that light, I am rather liking the "hallowed be thy name" part - we don't do enough of that (praise and worship) even in our prayers, nevermind the rest of our religious services - it's all indirect or implied - only hymns (and only some of them) are explicit, stand-alone praise and worship.  This is me experiencing some "holy envy" and starting on the path of "how to I add praise and worship to prayers, talks, and lessons?".

[Carborendum]

30 minutes ago, HaggisShuu said:

I think the crux of the issue I was trying to get at, is that the prayer is a simple reminder, to love and respect God, repent, and seek his protection. I think some prayers become so convoluted with nonsense at times, that these "plain and precious truths" are drowned out with noise. But this passage (in my experience at least) has almost been shunned and discouraged from use. 

I was going to write a response.  But while in the middle, I noticed @zil2's post.  She took the words right out of my mouth.  So, I won't vainly repeat them. (hee-hee).

I will ask one question about this: How much of your desire to pray specifically the Lord's Prayer is just a cultural/personal thing vs. a generalized right vs. wrong thing?

Edited March 3 by Carborendum

[zil2]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

She took the words right out of my mouth.

And I gotta tell you, it was really awkward and kinda gross - had to wash my hands twice!  Just sayin' - I won't be going to dental hygienist school any time soon. 

[laronius]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

 

I've been irked oh-so-often when I hear a person really think about what they desire to pray about, only to rush through the closing "in the name of..." so quickly that I couldn't really understand what was said if I didn't already know what he meant.  That. to me, reeks of "speaking the Lord's name in vain."

 

At our stake conference over the weekend the 70 in attendance quoted Pres Nelson, I believe, in making this exact point. The end of a prayer is not a formality to be gotten out of the way. 

[HaggisShuu]

9 minutes ago, zil2 said:

 

Given this, which I think we can take as fact:

36 minutes ago, HaggisShuu said:

But I guarantee, everybody, at some point, has been guilty of offering vain repetitions even when forming their own words. It's so easy to say the same prayer with slightly different words day in, day out.

What makes you think that this:

36 minutes ago, HaggisShuu said:

But there is value in memorising and reciting rote prayers, when you study and insert yourself into it. and there is value in their simplicity. 

...will not hasten the devolution into vain repetition?  I mean, it sounds like you're literally suggesting that we should repeat the same words, outside of an ordinance (which is the only place I'm aware of where the Church repeats the same words).  If repeating words we haven't intentionally memorized for repetition can so easily become vain, it seems like repeating words we have intentionally memorized for repetition can more easily become vain.

 

Apologies, I am often inarticulate at the best of times. My position isn't that the lords prayer should be the mandate, as I previously mentioned I haven't uttered it once since I converted. This thread is more of a dialogue with the purpose of developing my opinion on the matter, than it is to convince somebody else of what I believe, discussion is valuable in that way. 
 

But to answer your question, no, I don't believe that, the lords prayer and sacrament prayers are commissioned by God as scripture. I'm not suggesting we use the sacrament prayer outside of the ordinance, but when it's being read during a meeting, I personally find it valuable to follow along, and insert myself into as an affirmation of my faith, and proof of my resolve to keep my renewed covenants. 
 

Quote

O God, the Eternal Father, I ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to my soul who will partake of it, that I may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that I am willing to take upon myself the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given me; that I may always have his Spirit to be with me. Amen.

This is what I meant. When I insert myself into the prayer, I find it evokes quite powerful feelings. I don't believe it is vain to do this. 
As for the lords prayer, I think there is value in memorising it as a blueprint if nothing else. I think as the scriptures show, it is what God wants to hear from us first and foremost, our love, our repentance, our requests and our resolve against evil, and that personally, keeping my prayers grounded in these areas stops me waffling on about stupidness, or getting stuck on one request and repeating it several times. I also don't believe that this is vain, it prevents me descending into vanity, which I think was the whole point of the passage. 
 

As for the sister with the long prayer, I wasn't trying to be mean, there is no hate from me. It's just what started my train of thought on this subject. 🙂

[HaggisShuu]

20 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I was going to write a response.  But while in the middle, I noticed @zil2's post.  She took the words right out of my mouth.  So, I won't vainly repeat them. (hee-hee).

I will ask one question about this: How much of your desire to pray specifically the Lord's Prayer is just a cultural/personal thing vs. a generalized right vs. wrong thing?

I was quite literally raised on the lords prayer. We had to say it every day at school, it was the finale to every church service or public ceremony. Even atheist's in the UK who have never set foot in a Church know the lords prayer. When I started to take religion seriously I held it in very high regard, and it was very significant to me. So when the missionaries (rather innocently) brushed it aside as not right, I took their word for it, but I was slightly hurt by it. Perhaps I am just projecting that. 

[zil2]

6 minutes ago, HaggisShuu said:

But to answer your question, no, I don't believe that, the lords prayer and sacrament prayers are commissioned by God as scripture. I'm not suggesting we use the sacrament prayer outside of the ordinance, but when it's being read during a meeting, I personally find it valuable to follow along, and insert myself into as an affirmation of my faith, and proof of my resolve to keep my renewed covenants. 

I wasn't referring at all to the sacrament prayers, but to the Lord's prayer.  I recognize that you were using the sacrament prayers as examples.

[zil2]

7 minutes ago, HaggisShuu said:

My position isn't that the lords prayer should be the mandate

I didn't think you were.  I thought you were suggesting that we recite it on occasion as a prayer, rather than making one up from scratch - so to speak.

[HaggisShuu]

Just now, zil2 said:

I didn't think you were.  I thought you were suggesting that we recite it on occasion as a prayer, rather than making one up from scratch - so to speak.

No, my biggest weakness is using too many words! I just think it's a useful tool, which isn't given enough attention! 

[zil2]

9 minutes ago, HaggisShuu said:

As for the lords prayer, I think there is value in memorising it as a blueprint if nothing else. I think as the scriptures show, it is what God wants to hear from us first and foremost, our love, our repentance, our requests and our resolve against evil, and that personally, keeping my prayers grounded in these areas stops me waffling on about stupidness, or getting stuck on one request and repeating it several times. I also don't believe that this is vain, it prevents me descending into vanity, which I think was the whole point of the passage. 

  I'm game for this.

 

But I will also tell you a story about "getting stuck on one request".  I was struggling with something and couldn't figure out any way to change myself.  So I decided to ask God to change me.  I prayed in every single prayer - personal prayers, public prayers, sacrament prayers, opening prayers, closing prayers, prayers over food - for Him to change me.  If I was alone, I spoke the words.  If I was not alone, I thought the words.  Every single prayer.  (I really wanted to be changed.)  In the meantime, as part of my plan, I did the best I could manage to live the gospel.  This wasn't an extraordinary effort, it was just the best I could manage.  I did this for two years.  (I wasn't really keeping track, so that's an approximation, but it was at least that.)  One night, I was lying in bed, waiting to fall asleep and it dawned on me that I had been changed - and not only in the way I had asked for.  I think the other change was a necessary part of it.  In short, sometimes getting stuck on one request and repeating it in every single prayer for two years is a good thing.  YMMV.

[Carborendum]

10 minutes ago, HaggisShuu said:

I was quite literally raised on the lords prayer. We had to say it every day at school, it was the finale to every church service or public ceremony. Even atheist's in the UK who have never set foot in a Church know the lords prayer. When I started to take religion seriously I held it in very high regard, and it was very significant to me. So when the missionaries (rather innocently) brushed it aside as not right, I took their word for it, but I was slightly hurt by it. Perhaps I am just projecting that. 

Since you didn't answer the question directly, I'll make a guess.  You can verify if it is a good guess.  It seems that it is a personal/cultural thing that caused some heartache when missionaries didn't share that same background.  But the bottom line is that it isn't necessarily wrong to not pray using the exact verbiage of the Lord's Prayer.

I have often felt deeply touched by simply reading out loud or reciting certain scriptures in my head.  If you truly are "reciting" I'm absolutely certain that you could feel a great connection with the Lord if you are essentially doing what I do for a variety of scriptures.  I've even found that same communing phenomenon when reciting the Lord's Prayer, itself.  But to me, it just isn't a "prayer" in the sense that I normally think of it.  But it certainly qualified as having a connection with the Lord.

[zil2]

9 minutes ago, HaggisShuu said:

I just think it's a useful tool, which isn't given enough attention! 

Yeah, probably only when the verses come up in the Come, Follow Me lesson, or less predictably, in a talk.  I do think occasional discussion of what personal prayer ought to look like would be beneficial.  We've gotten rid of the formulaic template that used to be used, but it doesn't seem like we talk about about the details of what prayer should look like.

[HaggisShuu]

7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Since you didn't answer the question directly, I'll make a guess.  You can verify if it is a good guess.  It seems that it is a personal/cultural thing that caused some heartache when missionaries didn't share that same background.  But the bottom line is that it isn't necessarily wrong to not pray using the exact verbiage of the Lord's Prayer.

I have often felt deeply touched by simply reading out loud or reciting certain scriptures in my head.  If you truly are "reciting" I'm absolutely certain that you could feel a great connection with the Lord if you are essentially doing what I do for a variety of scriptures.  I've even found that same communing phenomenon when reciting the Lord's Prayer, itself.  But to me, it just isn't a "prayer" in the sense that I normally think of it.  But it certainly qualified as having a connection with the Lord.

Apologies, yes it's a cultural interpretation of the scripture. As I said, I haven't used the prayer for a number of years now, so I would be silly for me to believe what I'm doing is wrong, and the continue doing it. 

[laronius]

There may be instances where a heartfelt recital of the Lord's prayer may help us draw closer to God. But in general prayer needs to be far more personal, using our own words, expressing our own thoughts and feelings about the specifics of our lives. 

[NeuroTypical]

2 hours ago, HaggisShuu said:

I respect this position, but, Christ instituted the sacrament prayers, and we offer those as rote prayers. Yet, when studied and paid due attention, they are some of the most powerful tools in the churches ordinance arsenal.

Blessing the sacrament is an ordinance first and a prayer second.  The words are part of revealed scripture.  

I don't see the disconnect: 
- When you pray to God, talk to Him.
- When you bless the sacrament, perform the ordinance as it's laid out in scripture.

[JohnsonJones]

On 3/3/2025 at 1:34 PM, HaggisShuu said:

3 Nephi 13:

I converted from an Anglican background where this was always the go to prayer of choice for any situation, and I find I have not said it once since converting.

My wife and I listened to a sister give the world's longest closing prayer on Sunday (which we jokingly named the closing talk) which caused me to do some reflection in regards to the above passage.

The guidance here seems quite clear, got knows what we need, and what we want, so keep your prayers short, and simple, giving glory to God, to avoid being vain and mistakingly believing that your long and repetitive speakings will make you more heard. It helped resolve some personal questions, encouraging a focus on sincere simplicity. 

So why, if this passage found in the book of Mormon states "After this manner therefore pray ye:" is the reciting of this prayer not only rarely taught, but actively discouraged? (It may not be universally but it was for me when I was taught by the missionaries as it was "impersonal"). 

 

Quote

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen

 

[CV75]

On 3/3/2025 at 3:34 PM, HaggisShuu said:

3 Nephi 13:

I converted from an Anglican background where this was always the go to prayer of choice for any situation, and I find I have not said it once since converting.

My wife and I listened to a sister give the world's longest closing prayer on Sunday (which we jokingly named the closing talk) which caused me to do some reflection in regards to the above passage.

The guidance here seems quite clear, got knows what we need, and what we want, so keep your prayers short, and simple, giving glory to God, to avoid being vain and mistakingly believing that your long and repetitive speakings will make you more heard. It helped resolve some personal questions, encouraging a focus on sincere simplicity. 

So why, if this passage found in the book of Mormon states "After this manner therefore pray ye:" is the reciting of this prayer not only rarely taught, but actively discouraged? (It may not be universally but it was for me when I was taught by the missionaries as it was "impersonal"). 

I think "After this manner..." refers to the guidance you mentioned and the spirit in which the prayer is offered, not to using the Lord's example for literal verbatim recitation, which is what I take the missionaries meant by calling it "impersonal" (the rote aspect of it, and the reliance on formula over the Person).