classylady

Short answer: Personal interpretation of the gospel and pet theories rather than the basics of faith, humility, obedience, and sacrifice.
Long answer: From Mosiah 12...
This is a very important beginning of the conversation.  Abinadi specifically states that they have not taught them the ways of the Lord.  They have perverted them.  Then asks them what they ARE teaching the people.
So, as far as they are concerned, they're doing what they're supposed to do.  They teach the Law of Moses, after all. That is the Law of God.  Therefore, we're teaching right.  But what is Abinadi's response to their claim?
It is easy to think that Noah and his priests were simply hypocrites.  I don't think so.  At some level, sure they were.  But the primary thing that Abinadi is giving them a tongue lashing for was the fact that they were not doing their jobs and preaching the word of God.  He starts his actual lesson with the Ten Commandments.  Pretty basic stuff.  Not the doctrine of the atonement or grace, or works, or love thy neighbor, or the value of work...  He teaches the commandments of God.
And when he does, both Noah and Alma are pricked in their hearts.  I'd say because neither of them had even thought about (or taught about) the commandments in a long time.  And they were being reminded of them for the first time since their apostasy.
We can all have our pet principles (which are true and just principles).  But we twist them in such a way that we justify our sinning against the commandments of God.  We believe in the "warm and fuzzy things" like "love thy neighbor" and excuse ourselves from ignoring the commandment to stay chaste or to warn our neighbor or to cry repentance to all the world.  And to do so, means we're simply creating our own offshoot of the Church rather than staying true to the roots.  That was Noah's great sin.

Mosiah 26:3 really sums up my investigator experience.  It may be my new favorite verse.

I feel you.  This is crazy.  I'm working from home and working FAR more hours than normal.  Fortunately(?) my wife is our of work during this mess so she can pick up the slack with the twins.  She's amazing.

If you're looking for "debate fodder" recognize that there will be counters to this.
The statement that "ordinances were for living only" will be challenged.  There were "prayers" said in the temple (lighting incense, making an offering and so forth to pray for the souls of the dead).  While it really bears little resemblance to what we call "vicarious ordinances" that kind of disconnect is what they hang their hat on.  There really is no way to convince someone of something that they are already convinced of.  How many times do we see that played out here?

I have never heard that we should never speak of miracles, but rather, only if the Spirit prompts us to share. I have had miracles occur in my life. Most of the time I do not share them, but there are times when I have felt prompted to do so.
For my children, now all adults, I created a binder I called “Family Treasures“. In the binder I have recorded the miracles that have happened to me, my husband, my children, and many of our ancestors. I believe there is a time and place for some of these miracles to be shared. They are sacred. I hope in my telling of the events that they will help strengthen my children and grandchildren’s testimonies.

I have never heard that we should never speak of miracles, but rather, only if the Spirit prompts us to share. I have had miracles occur in my life. Most of the time I do not share them, but there are times when I have felt prompted to do so.
For my children, now all adults, I created a binder I called “Family Treasures“. In the binder I have recorded the miracles that have happened to me, my husband, my children, and many of our ancestors. I believe there is a time and place for some of these miracles to be shared. They are sacred. I hope in my telling of the events that they will help strengthen my children and grandchildren’s testimonies.

I have never heard that we should never speak of miracles, but rather, only if the Spirit prompts us to share. I have had miracles occur in my life. Most of the time I do not share them, but there are times when I have felt prompted to do so.
For my children, now all adults, I created a binder I called “Family Treasures“. In the binder I have recorded the miracles that have happened to me, my husband, my children, and many of our ancestors. I believe there is a time and place for some of these miracles to be shared. They are sacred. I hope in my telling of the events that they will help strengthen my children and grandchildren’s testimonies.

I have never heard that we should never speak of miracles, but rather, only if the Spirit prompts us to share. I have had miracles occur in my life. Most of the time I do not share them, but there are times when I have felt prompted to do so.
For my children, now all adults, I created a binder I called “Family Treasures“. In the binder I have recorded the miracles that have happened to me, my husband, my children, and many of our ancestors. I believe there is a time and place for some of these miracles to be shared. They are sacred. I hope in my telling of the events that they will help strengthen my children and grandchildren’s testimonies.

I have never heard that we should never speak of miracles, but rather, only if the Spirit prompts us to share. I have had miracles occur in my life. Most of the time I do not share them, but there are times when I have felt prompted to do so.
For my children, now all adults, I created a binder I called “Family Treasures“. In the binder I have recorded the miracles that have happened to me, my husband, my children, and many of our ancestors. I believe there is a time and place for some of these miracles to be shared. They are sacred. I hope in my telling of the events that they will help strengthen my children and grandchildren’s testimonies.

I have never heard that we should never speak of miracles, but rather, only if the Spirit prompts us to share. I have had miracles occur in my life. Most of the time I do not share them, but there are times when I have felt prompted to do so.
For my children, now all adults, I created a binder I called “Family Treasures“. In the binder I have recorded the miracles that have happened to me, my husband, my children, and many of our ancestors. I believe there is a time and place for some of these miracles to be shared. They are sacred. I hope in my telling of the events that they will help strengthen my children and grandchildren’s testimonies.

I have never heard that we should never speak of miracles, but rather, only if the Spirit prompts us to share. I have had miracles occur in my life. Most of the time I do not share them, but there are times when I have felt prompted to do so.
For my children, now all adults, I created a binder I called “Family Treasures“. In the binder I have recorded the miracles that have happened to me, my husband, my children, and many of our ancestors. I believe there is a time and place for some of these miracles to be shared. They are sacred. I hope in my telling of the events that they will help strengthen my children and grandchildren’s testimonies.

Here's mine. The resemblance is startling.

I didn't see my option, so I added it.
 
 

This topic can be sensitive, and I was tempted to place in the Christian beliefs forum. However, my sense is that the spiritual struggle that politics sometimes generates affects us all. Here's the story--made vague on purpose. A man seminary-educated (Protestant graduate theology school) in the 1970s becomes ordained in his mainline denomination and pastors a single church for nearly 30 years. As he sees his denomination embrace gay marriage, ordain practicing homosexuals, and now fully embrace transgenderism, he comes to the soul-wrenching decision to leave his denomination--including guiding his church out. He was able to join another denomination, under the same larger umbrella, and today says his former denomination cannot be merely labed liberal--it has become radical, in his view. I read his article and, taken at face value, I agree.
In the 1990s, when I was at my much-more-Bible-based denominational seminary I remember classmates saying with a bit of bravado that they were thankful that we would never affirm anti-biblical sexuality. Today we remain nowhere near violating those standards. However, there are some frightfully strong rumblings among our youngest clergy. A few pastors have left us, because they do want to embrace today's cultural norms.
In the greater Evangelical world there are several thinkers suggesting a huge divide is coming over support/opposition to POTUS. Apparently many younger believers find it hypocritical and even evil that their elders would turn a blind eye to the shortcomings in order to gain temporary protection and support. "Do we trust God or Caesar?" they ask.
If the church is led by prophets, and those prophets remain true, then a few may leave the church, whether to the left or the right. If boundary-protectors force the church to the right, outside of God's directing, then a good number will leave for the left. Those who do so will be younger. On the other hand, if the cultural-accommodaters get ahead of God's directions, many elders may leave in dismay. After some initial growth by excited young people, such a movement would go the way of many in-tune denominations--gradual implosion.
I'm an outsider. However, if my counsel is worth anything, I'd urge members to pray for their leaders--especially those they believe to be anointed by God to be prophets. In the mean time, I am praying for my leaders to keep our denomination faithful to God and his Word.

While we're on the subject of cats:

I had just watched that video of Pres. Eyring about an hour ago. It popped up on my FaceBook feed.  Powerful! 

I had just watched that video of Pres. Eyring about an hour ago. It popped up on my FaceBook feed.  Powerful! 

I had just watched that video of Pres. Eyring about an hour ago. It popped up on my FaceBook feed.  Powerful! 

Just wanted to comment on the two bolded areas.

First: “Then you will never be heard” — true. Hopefully, if an aware person is in charge, they will be aware that there are those in the room that have something worthwhile to share but won’t because they are not aggressive enough to get their thoughts shared.  I’m thinking along the lines of a Sunday School class. Many don’t share thoughts or experiences because they feel inferior, or in my case it’s too intimidating to speak up in front of men and some women. I’m much more likely to speak up in a group where I feel accepted and everyone feels comfortable. There are times I don’t participate, even though I know the correct answer (reading these forums, I’ve learned a thing or two) because of the alpha attitude of some in the class. They seem to take over, and I’m not aggressive enough to interject. So, my information, thoughts, and feelings don’t get shared.
Second: “Then someone else will succeed and you won’t. This isn’t hard to understand.” For me, what is success? It certainly isn’t getting first in a competition or a promotion. In many areas I know I can win, and often did. I would much rather give up my prize to a struggling coworker.(I’m so glad I’m retired. ) I had no desire to be the one in charge., even when I was a supervisor. Let me just do my job so I could go home and be where my heart was—with my family. I was not the main breadwinner in our home. That was my husband’s job. So, glad he was willing to be that person. So, was I an unsuccessful employee? I think not. I used my time wisely And did my job. Then I went home to my real job. I was happy to see my coworkers get promotions and worked to see them get ahead. I received promotions too, but it didn’t mean much. (When I was single it did mean a lot more). Let me be a mom to my kids and support my husband. I consider that a success! I may be in the minority in regards to my thinking. But, success, in my mind has always been as a wife and mother. 

Just wanted to comment on the two bolded areas.

First: “Then you will never be heard” — true. Hopefully, if an aware person is in charge, they will be aware that there are those in the room that have something worthwhile to share but won’t because they are not aggressive enough to get their thoughts shared.  I’m thinking along the lines of a Sunday School class. Many don’t share thoughts or experiences because they feel inferior, or in my case it’s too intimidating to speak up in front of men and some women. I’m much more likely to speak up in a group where I feel accepted and everyone feels comfortable. There are times I don’t participate, even though I know the correct answer (reading these forums, I’ve learned a thing or two) because of the alpha attitude of some in the class. They seem to take over, and I’m not aggressive enough to interject. So, my information, thoughts, and feelings don’t get shared.
Second: “Then someone else will succeed and you won’t. This isn’t hard to understand.” For me, what is success? It certainly isn’t getting first in a competition or a promotion. In many areas I know I can win, and often did. I would much rather give up my prize to a struggling coworker.(I’m so glad I’m retired. ) I had no desire to be the one in charge., even when I was a supervisor. Let me just do my job so I could go home and be where my heart was—with my family. I was not the main breadwinner in our home. That was my husband’s job. So, glad he was willing to be that person. So, was I an unsuccessful employee? I think not. I used my time wisely And did my job. Then I went home to my real job. I was happy to see my coworkers get promotions and worked to see them get ahead. I received promotions too, but it didn’t mean much. (When I was single it did mean a lot more). Let me be a mom to my kids and support my husband. I consider that a success! I may be in the minority in regards to my thinking. But, success, in my mind has always been as a wife and mother. 

Just wanted to comment on the two bolded areas.

First: “Then you will never be heard” — true. Hopefully, if an aware person is in charge, they will be aware that there are those in the room that have something worthwhile to share but won’t because they are not aggressive enough to get their thoughts shared.  I’m thinking along the lines of a Sunday School class. Many don’t share thoughts or experiences because they feel inferior, or in my case it’s too intimidating to speak up in front of men and some women. I’m much more likely to speak up in a group where I feel accepted and everyone feels comfortable. There are times I don’t participate, even though I know the correct answer (reading these forums, I’ve learned a thing or two) because of the alpha attitude of some in the class. They seem to take over, and I’m not aggressive enough to interject. So, my information, thoughts, and feelings don’t get shared.
Second: “Then someone else will succeed and you won’t. This isn’t hard to understand.” For me, what is success? It certainly isn’t getting first in a competition or a promotion. In many areas I know I can win, and often did. I would much rather give up my prize to a struggling coworker.(I’m so glad I’m retired. ) I had no desire to be the one in charge., even when I was a supervisor. Let me just do my job so I could go home and be where my heart was—with my family. I was not the main breadwinner in our home. That was my husband’s job. So, glad he was willing to be that person. So, was I an unsuccessful employee? I think not. I used my time wisely And did my job. Then I went home to my real job. I was happy to see my coworkers get promotions and worked to see them get ahead. I received promotions too, but it didn’t mean much. (When I was single it did mean a lot more). Let me be a mom to my kids and support my husband. I consider that a success! I may be in the minority in regards to my thinking. But, success, in my mind has always been as a wife and mother. 

Just wanted to comment on the two bolded areas.

First: “Then you will never be heard” — true. Hopefully, if an aware person is in charge, they will be aware that there are those in the room that have something worthwhile to share but won’t because they are not aggressive enough to get their thoughts shared.  I’m thinking along the lines of a Sunday School class. Many don’t share thoughts or experiences because they feel inferior, or in my case it’s too intimidating to speak up in front of men and some women. I’m much more likely to speak up in a group where I feel accepted and everyone feels comfortable. There are times I don’t participate, even though I know the correct answer (reading these forums, I’ve learned a thing or two) because of the alpha attitude of some in the class. They seem to take over, and I’m not aggressive enough to interject. So, my information, thoughts, and feelings don’t get shared.
Second: “Then someone else will succeed and you won’t. This isn’t hard to understand.” For me, what is success? It certainly isn’t getting first in a competition or a promotion. In many areas I know I can win, and often did. I would much rather give up my prize to a struggling coworker.(I’m so glad I’m retired. ) I had no desire to be the one in charge., even when I was a supervisor. Let me just do my job so I could go home and be where my heart was—with my family. I was not the main breadwinner in our home. That was my husband’s job. So, glad he was willing to be that person. So, was I an unsuccessful employee? I think not. I used my time wisely And did my job. Then I went home to my real job. I was happy to see my coworkers get promotions and worked to see them get ahead. I received promotions too, but it didn’t mean much. (When I was single it did mean a lot more). Let me be a mom to my kids and support my husband. I consider that a success! I may be in the minority in regards to my thinking. But, success, in my mind has always been as a wife and mother. 

I like to win too. But, I have given up my winnings/prize to someone else. I like to see others succeed.

I like to win too. But, I have given up my winnings/prize to someone else. I like to see others succeed.

Just wanted to comment on the two bolded areas.

First: “Then you will never be heard” — true. Hopefully, if an aware person is in charge, they will be aware that there are those in the room that have something worthwhile to share but won’t because they are not aggressive enough to get their thoughts shared.  I’m thinking along the lines of a Sunday School class. Many don’t share thoughts or experiences because they feel inferior, or in my case it’s too intimidating to speak up in front of men and some women. I’m much more likely to speak up in a group where I feel accepted and everyone feels comfortable. There are times I don’t participate, even though I know the correct answer (reading these forums, I’ve learned a thing or two) because of the alpha attitude of some in the class. They seem to take over, and I’m not aggressive enough to interject. So, my information, thoughts, and feelings don’t get shared.
Second: “Then someone else will succeed and you won’t. This isn’t hard to understand.” For me, what is success? It certainly isn’t getting first in a competition or a promotion. In many areas I know I can win, and often did. I would much rather give up my prize to a struggling coworker.(I’m so glad I’m retired. ) I had no desire to be the one in charge., even when I was a supervisor. Let me just do my job so I could go home and be where my heart was—with my family. I was not the main breadwinner in our home. That was my husband’s job. So, glad he was willing to be that person. So, was I an unsuccessful employee? I think not. I used my time wisely And did my job. Then I went home to my real job. I was happy to see my coworkers get promotions and worked to see them get ahead. I received promotions too, but it didn’t mean much. (When I was single it did mean a lot more). Let me be a mom to my kids and support my husband. I consider that a success! I may be in the minority in regards to my thinking. But, success, in my mind has always been as a wife and mother.