Gwen

I'm not saying I agree with the behavior.............. BUT............ To avoid judging this young couple is there any circumstance that I can come up with that would make this "ok" in their minds? Was there any "good intention" in the action? Ok so I can't know this unless I talk to them but I can speculate..... which is all anyone here is doing when they make comments about their lack of respect for the chapel or lack of hormone control or that they are just getting off by the "danger" of the location as a whole........... any of which could be true. But what if.... they have been struggling to stay within the proper boundaries and sitting in the car they know they would go too far.... so they start thinking, "How can we be close and know that we won't cross those lines?"..... (maybe even said as a joke at first) "Would never go too far in the chapel"..... Is it possible they weren't there to desecrate the chapel or to get their jollies off but to try and be reminded of who they are so they don't get carried away? Maybe the method is wrong but the desire to follow their covenants is admirable. The right thing in the wrong way. Do I think they still need some correction? yes. Would they have been better served to go to their bishop for advise? in my opinion yes. But let's be truthful, as hormonal ysa don't most first try to find a way we could keep doing what we were doing before admitting the need to go to the bishop? Maybe getting caught was a good thing, maybe reporting to leaders will help get the attention they need to realize what the proper course of action is. All anyone here can do is "what if" when it comes to the motives of the couple.... but I don't know, I tend to give the benefit of the doubt that there may have been some good intention before passing judgment. Unless I know you well enough that you've proved otherwise to me, then you get the judgment you've earned. lol

I have had at least 2 dreams that I know were revelation. One was a dream within a dream. When I finally woke up for real I really didn't know if I had woken up and fallen back to sleep or if I just dreamed I woke up and the entire thing was a dream. Took me a good 20 min to sort it all out. Very unique experience.

My understanding is that after the ordinance is complete they should print you out a personal certificate and then forward the info on to the general church records department. So the clerk ought to be able to request them from salt lake directly, he should know how to do that. If the ward never forwarded them on so salt lake has no record then you would need to contact the ward she was baptized in.... however, over this long of time odds are they don't have the records anymore. Which means if mom does not have her certificate they should have given her then it will be a more involved process. We had a sister that the records "got lost" for but she had her certificate so they used it to update the records. There really is a reason beyond scrapbooking to keep those. lol

I've looked and looked for the only nipple some of mine would take. I think they stopped making them. It was the playtex brand. The brown laytex ones (not the clear silicone). They have a different texture I found makes a difference. They had one that had a square shaped nipple instead of round and it kinda sunk down into itself, not all rounded up like the ones I'm finding now. I don't know if my description is any good. lol Anyway, if you haven't might want to try the laytex ones.

We switched realtors because the lady was unethical and the first thing the new realtor asked was if we signed anything like that. I told her I wouldn't knowingly and if she tricked me into it I'd wait 6 months to buy a house just so she wouldn't get the sale. lol

Call a different agent.... unless you signed something saying if you bought in the next 6 months it had to be with them..... never sign anything like that.

My opinion take it for what it's worth. Be honest with your daughter. Tell her that R hasn't learned how to play nice yet and explain why you think that. "You know how R yells in your face?..... that's not ok and no one is allowed to do that to you. We can't control R but we can decide if we give him the opportunity to do that. We won't because we won't play with him until he learns some manners." I also would not trust the parents for anything. It's a friendship I would cut off. If they happen to be in the same class I would make the teacher aware of the situation. Not in a "blame/bad" way. Just simply "my child and R know each other. They used to play together a lot but it didn't always go well. R would be too aggressive with my daughter and she would not stand up for herself. Let the kids work it out and decide if they want to be friends but please keep an eye out that she is safe." personal situations.... My oldest has a very hard time telling who are "friends" and who is not. He trusts everyone and always tries to see the best in them. It sets him up for a lot of bullying. He can't seem to tell when something is genuine or not. In 5th grade he had a friend that would come over and they would ride bikes and play on the trampoline. Then one day my son came home upset that this boy had been bullying him at school with some other boys. Upon further questioning I found out that this boy was always rude at school but then would invite himself over to play and things seemed fine. From that point on he was no longer allowed to play at our house. I had to teach my son that kind of behavior was not being a friend. He was either two faced or he was too afraid of the bullies at school to be a real friend and gave into peer pressure. Either way he didn't deserve my son's friendship. Another situation (2nd grade) he came home very upset because his teacher told him he was not allowed to share and he didn't understand why a teacher would say that. I went and talked to the teacher knowing there was something to this I was missing. What I found out was that there was a girl in the class that never brought a snack. He would share his, it got to where he was sharing every day. It progressed to the point that at snack time the girl would go into my son's desk and help herself to his snack before he even had a chance to get any. The teacher rightfully was upset about this and told my son that he was not allowed to share with this girl anymore, if she wanted a snack she had to talk to the teacher. I had to teach my son about the line between him sharing (even regularly) and someone stealing from him. This year (6th grade) he will sometimes come home telling me about things friends said or did and I have to tell him if that's how "friends" treat each other or not. I will have to tell him, "From everything you have said about this kid he's not your friend. I think it's best if you stay away from him. Please don't trust him." This is the son that has recently been diagnosed with Asperger's. All of these situations where he seemed to just "not get it" were red flags that I missed (can't see something you don't know exists). I described my son as sweet, too trusting, always wanting to see the best in ppl, just wanted to be your friend. I don't share this to say your daughter has anything, I don't know your daughter. I don't know these ppl and what their background is to ask such a question about your daughter. If they are perhaps qualified to make such an accusation then they went about it totally the wrong way and shame on them (which leaves me skeptical that they know what they are talking about). I am not justifying what they said/did or their defense of their child. In fact if they think that it is all the more reason for them to come down harder on their son and not let him take advantage of/bully her. On the other hand, I find when I finally set emotion aside from how someone shared something, sometimes, there might be validity to it. At this age it's normal to have to teach social things. As she gets older if she continues to "not get it" or she can't take one lesson and apply it to a different social situation (you have to explain every single situation to her), there might be something to consider. The boy mentioned with the chewing issues.... there is something there. Some kind of sensory processing issue? Also it's been found that chewing actually stimulates pressure points in the jaw that relieve stress, tension, and headaches..... is he "self medicating" for anxiety issues? It's great that the school helped out and gave you the things you asked for your kid. In a general public education class typically you can't get that (in my experience anyway, every school system is different). You have to have some kind of IEP or something in place before they will take that many measures for one kid.

Sounds like he is still thinking about himself and his pride. He would rather go inactive than potentially have someone find out why he moved? I'm so sorry he might get embarrassed because of HIS choices. The marriage builders has already been mentioned (I'll second it, the book is "his needs her needs") and if I recall correctly he says that the way men form attachments to women that cutting off all contact is the only way to truly move on from an affair without a relapse. Sunday might be a trigger for you but more importantly it might also be a trigger for him (even down the road). Have you figured out "why" he had the affair..... don't think I'm blaming you, he owns that choice.... but we stray because of unmet needs (often it's because we never communicated the need to begin with, you can't meet a need you didn't know about). If you aren't working on that, for both of your needs, then you won't really move on. I think you need to stay with counseling but also get the book and incorporate the principles.

Didn't mean in as giving praise but more of a "Hey, are you listening... I'm talking to you" lol

Am I the only one that listened to this talk and heard a shout out to the ordain women group?

If the subject is brought up it shouldn't automatically mean they went off script. You don't think the lord didn't know this was going to happen months ago, he couldn't have inspired an appropriate talk before this ever came up?

I liked this from the comments on the article I'm sure it was a different class so couldn't be done exactly the same way but similar lesson plan..... more tastefully done. Sounds like a great class.

It sounds like the student didn't conduct himself in the calm articulate way he did in interviews later. I wondered about that. Often in the heat of the moment we can act in ways that we are less than proud. It's easier to calmly articulate things days later. However, I would have been more impressed if he admitted that and said "I was really upset at that moment. It really hurt and offended me. I said things I shouldn't have in a way I shouldn't have. For that I apologize. However, I feel my objections are still valid and here is what they are and why......"

be careful lol Kansas couple: Indoor gardening prompted pot raid

I didn't read that thread before but I thought it was funny..... would you like me to laugh at it now? But then it could just be that I'm in an odd mood. I laughed till I cried at something my kids did a few hrs ago and I'm still cracking up when I think about it. lol

To my knowledge the only time the stake pres makes such recommendations is if there is a special circumstance (like disability). The case I am most knowledgeable of after the papers were sent with the stake pres recommendations the church asked the local mission pres to meet with the young man and make a recommendation.

My random thoughts. lol I think it means having goals and working toward them daily. I can see someone at judgment not be thrilled with the outcome saying "well I wasn't trying to go to hell" and the response being "were you trying to get to heaven?" It's like sins of omission, didn't do anything "wrong" but didn't do anything "right" either. The first time I heard this concept was on Oprah a long time ago. She had a lady on her show who had been a drug addict and the lady said something like, "I didn't intend for my life to end up this way" and Oprah responded with something like, "Where did you intend it to go?" The lady didn't know, she didn't have a plan. Oprah went on to talk about living intentionally. Or the Cheshire cat; if you don't know where you want to go it doesn't matter what path you take. I often apply this to things with my kids. "I didn't mean to hurt him" "but did you mean not to?" There is a difference in not hurting someone and intentionally trying to keep safe or make someone happier.

The op article did not say such took place. Do you have a link with more information as to what happened in the classroom? If the professor did indeed get upset and angry at him then the professor needs to be disciplined. He clearly does not know how to read a lesson plan or carry out a lively, yet civil/appropriate, class discussion. He needs to be sent back to basic education classes. The first education class I took covered this concept. Just to clarify I don't agree with the use of the name Jesus, if I were presented with such a lesson plan I would have modified it to something else. The precept of the activity is a good one, but yes tasteless in it's choice of details. My defense was of the lesson plan and teaching methods. All lesson plans are open to modification for the individual class room. The suspension of the student was wrong. If the professor did indeed berate the student or get angry then he should be disciplined. I do believe that there is a shift in our political culture that makes it acceptable to mock christians and traditional values and not other faiths or groups. I don't agree with becoming fanatical about it or seeing it when there is reasonable doubts about motive. There is so much to worry and stress and fight for that I think the need to pick battles is of vast importance. I just don't see this as one of them (unless the professor did lose his cool and stray from lesson plan). As for examples of other ppl/groups being "attacked".... I recall a class (ethnic diversity, I think it was called) I took where the professor asked each student to write their race/ethnicity on a piece of paper and leave it face up on the desk. He then had a man come in to talk about his journey to the united states. The man was as white as you can get, he walked in the room and announced that he was african american. He was born and raised in africa, immigrated to the states as an adult. He had dual citizenship. He was african american. Then he went around the room asking ppl that had african american written on their paper where they were from, most common answer "born and raised in the usa". He emphatically reprimanded them that they were not african american, there were american. He would ask them how much they knew about africa, had they ever been to africa, which of their ancestors immigrated from africa, etc. Oh ppl were hot, it definitely stirred discussion. By the end of the class everyone was calm and re-evaluating their self perceptions. Where did I come from? When? How? Who am I? What is my race/ethnicity/nationality/etc? But one thing was clear, everyone in that room was american. It was an amazing class carried out beautifully.

Widely considered blasphemy? So you've never tossed an old set of scriptures? Ever thrown away a pamphlet given to you by another church? I bet you "Jesus" was written in there somewhere. I'm sorry but I disagree that writing a word (no matter the word) on a piece of paper and then throwing it away (no matter the method) could ever be seen as blasphemy. Yes stomping on it was taking it to a next level. But again that was the point of the exercise. As for the student being suspended I agree that was totally wrong. The student did exactly what the lesson wanted him to do, resist and speak his mind. Successful lesson, can't punish the kid for doing what you set him up for. I think the whole issue here is a huge failure of intercultural communication.... ironic huh? lol Maybe the instructor needs to listen to some of his own lectures (share them with his higher ups while at it).

Speaking about the article linked only.... I have an issue with the student being suspended but not the lesson plan. It seems the teacher didn't know how to follow a lesson plan or to manage a class room. Should have proven to be a wonderful lesson. Let's start with the fact that it was an "Intercultural Communications class". This alone says some of the lesson material will be different from your own thinking. That's the point of the class. Which means they will teach things you personally don't espouse. That's ok. It won't be saying you have to, just to understand how culture impacts communications. That is an important skill to learn when we live in such a world society. The lesson plan the teacher was supposedly following was..... The bolded is mine, that is the crux of the lesson. The lesson is a failure if someone does not refuse to step on it. In education it is taught and encouraged for instructors to use "attention getting activities" to facilitate discussion. The older the students the more provocative the activity can be. The class (in this case communications) can also dictate more provocative activities. If the professor had managed the class discussion properly then there would have been no hard feelings when the class was over, it wasn't personal, it was to make a point about symbols in culture. From what it says he didn't threaten to fail the student for not stomping on it, in fact he should have thanked the student and then taken the discussion from there. That's how it was supposed to go. When the student went higher up to complain the teaching method should have been explained and then the student has the same choices as everyone, take the class or don't. There should not have been any discipline to the student or the instructor. It wasn't a lesson on bashing christ, it was a lesson on cultural symbolism. The book didn't suggest Mohammed because the target audience was probably christian. To do a good attention getting activity you have to use examples that will hit close to home, if it's not personal ppl won't discuss it. Even this alone is a cultural symbol (more for class discussion?), not every culture sees stomping on something the same. This is true for many things; spitting, how you shake hands, breast exposure, etc. Yes I can see where one could take offense but really I think it's a waste of time. Spend your energy being offended by something worth it. The student did the right thing by not stomping the paper. The next step is to participate in lively discussion about it and intelligently communicate your views. Don't go getting your panties in a bunch and trying to get instructors disciplined for doing their job.

This reminds me of how the word of wisdom came to be.

angel, I sent you a private message the other day. Just wanted to make sure you knew it was there.

I have a son that went through a phase where he picked things up. He wasn't trying to steal or be bad he just picked things up and they ended up in his pockets. It was very frustrating, especially with kids in tow, to have to go back in and return things. The first question is to figure out why the child is doing the behavior. If they are a "normal" child and they are just experimenting with being selfish then a good scolding, making them return it, etc work fine. Once or twice and lesson learned. For my son that didn't work. Does the child have an issue? My son has some issues stemming from his epilepsy, sensory processing (and currently being evaluated for asperger's). A good scolding etc aren't going to work. He's not stealing to steal. My job becomes to be more watchful. When in the store he must have a hand on the cart at all times or be holding someone's hand, we check pockets while in the check out line, etc. It was also suggested that if I wasn't able to curb it to sew his pockets closed. I did have a point that where I made him ride in the cart, he didn't like that.

I have a problem with this "new parenting technique". All this stuff about making teens stand on street corners with signs proclaiming their bad actions or grades. It's bullying plain and simple and we wonder why we have a problem in the schools, they learn it at home. I would like to say that I do not have a problem with it when it comes to petty crimes and adults. I recall reading about a judge that made shop lifters clean the store parking lot (aka community service) while wearing a sign saying they got caught shop lifting, better than paying their bills and "giving them a free ride" in our over crowded system. However, this is probably where all this started. The problem is we've taken natural parenting away from parents and then left them with no options to raise their children. It's presumed a right for kids starting at 6 to have their own phones and laptops, they don't have to earn it and it can't be taken away. You can't make kids do chores or you are a horrible parent. You are supposed to do the dishes you are the adult, you chose to have the kids, they didn't ask to be born. Yes these are things I've actually heard ppl say. I even know a woman that her appx. 15 yr old son was getting into trouble and when the mother tried to correct her son a judge told him he was old enough legally that he did not have to listen to her. So while she was legally obligated to proved him a home, food, etc she lost what little influence she had left. Every time she tried to teach him anything it was "the judge said I didn't have to listen to you". Needless to say the relationship, though strained before, was shattered. The judge was in a position to redirect this boy and help the relationship and instead shattered what was left. With divorce, depending on the state, at 14-16 kids don't have to listen to their parents anymore, the visitation order means nothing, and the courts don't respect parental rights. The kids are basically sent out on their own while the parents foot the bill. There used to be natural consequences. You refused to follow mom and dad's rules you were kicked out, even at 14. If you didn't want your parents and ran away you didn't get to have them pay your bills, you were on your own. With all natural parenting destroyed not sure what other options are left. Personally rather than bully my children I'll just take the risk of being called an outdated/old fashioned/ horrible parent.

I agree to ask her why she is asking. I disagree to add the "do you think...." it's a leading question and she may not yet know why she is asking, just curious. You suggest the idea that it's "not as pretty" and it could create problems you didn't intend. Nothing wrong with biology lessons. I agree with reminding her about how she looks like her mom. Let her hear and see your expressions of how beautiful her mother is. Not only will your wife love it but your daughter knows she looks like mom, it will change how she perceives herself. You don't have to say your wife's beauty is in her dark skin, just that she is beautiful, the positive impact will hit all your children. We are going through the diagnosing process of Asperger's in our family and one thing I'm learning is when addressing issues the biggest thing is spend some time considering how your child process the world. The fact that she is autistic changes things. They don't process things in a neuro typical way. The ideas for addressing this with a NT child won't necessarily work (or they may just may take more time). Is she high functioning enough to understand she is different in more than skin tone, does she know about and understand her autism? I guess I'm wondering if she is making associations that aren't there? I'm the only one with dark skin tone and I'm the only one with autism, maybe that's why I'm so different.