laronius

A related thought I have often had when studying deeper doctrine is how does the doctrine of the impossibility of being saved in ignorance apply. Does ignorance include the how as well as the what? I think it does. If that is the case then it tells me that the process of being saved extends far beyond this existence because there is so much of the how that we just don't or can't comprehend in our fallen state. And yet there are many things we can and are expected to comprehend here in this life. So whenever we run into a wall to further understanding of one doctrine it might just be that we are expected to build our foundation of knowledge in other areas first.

I think it would be fair to say that doing anything that physically harms our body would be breaking the word of wisdom or in more generic terms, breaking a law of God. For most people fasting is actually a healthy exercise. But for some it is not. So it could be argued that it is impossible for those individuals to obey both laws. What then?
Like @Vortsays, I think there are blessings that are missed when, for whatever reason, we fail to obey a commandment. But I also believe in the compensating power of God to make these people whole because of divine grace. How exactly that happens I don't know. But I believe it just the same.
 

I think it would be fair to say that doing anything that physically harms our body would be breaking the word of wisdom or in more generic terms, breaking a law of God. For most people fasting is actually a healthy exercise. But for some it is not. So it could be argued that it is impossible for those individuals to obey both laws. What then?
Like @Vortsays, I think there are blessings that are missed when, for whatever reason, we fail to obey a commandment. But I also believe in the compensating power of God to make these people whole because of divine grace. How exactly that happens I don't know. But I believe it just the same.
 

I think it would be fair to say that doing anything that physically harms our body would be breaking the word of wisdom or in more generic terms, breaking a law of God. For most people fasting is actually a healthy exercise. But for some it is not. So it could be argued that it is impossible for those individuals to obey both laws. What then?
Like @Vortsays, I think there are blessings that are missed when, for whatever reason, we fail to obey a commandment. But I also believe in the compensating power of God to make these people whole because of divine grace. How exactly that happens I don't know. But I believe it just the same.
 

I think it would be fair to say that doing anything that physically harms our body would be breaking the word of wisdom or in more generic terms, breaking a law of God. For most people fasting is actually a healthy exercise. But for some it is not. So it could be argued that it is impossible for those individuals to obey both laws. What then?
Like @Vortsays, I think there are blessings that are missed when, for whatever reason, we fail to obey a commandment. But I also believe in the compensating power of God to make these people whole because of divine grace. How exactly that happens I don't know. But I believe it just the same.
 

I think it would be fair to say that doing anything that physically harms our body would be breaking the word of wisdom or in more generic terms, breaking a law of God. For most people fasting is actually a healthy exercise. But for some it is not. So it could be argued that it is impossible for those individuals to obey both laws. What then?
Like @Vortsays, I think there are blessings that are missed when, for whatever reason, we fail to obey a commandment. But I also believe in the compensating power of God to make these people whole because of divine grace. How exactly that happens I don't know. But I believe it just the same.
 

Well, we don't seem to agree here.
I think this one-to-one, if you don't do this you don't get that, approach runs too close to the concept of trying to earn our own salvation. Clearly there are some points where such is the case (baptism, for example), but I don't see everything as that concrete.
And, to my thinking, your example of chastity doesn't exactly work. If one tries to live the law of chastity they will. But that doesn't mean they won't be exposed to explicit content or even, potentially, sexually abused or raped. Being raped or sexually abused or exposed to explicit sexual content isn't breaking the law of chastity. Living the law of chastity is obviously, to my thinking, more than just the concrete fact that one's eyes never see and body never touches a being sexually that isn't one's legal spouse. Will matters. And neither do I believe that the law of the fast is as concrete as what you're implying. Of course even my comparison fails a bit, because being forced fed food against our will isn't exactly what we're talking about. The plain fact is the two laws aren't perfectly comparable and so the analogies will break down.
So really where I primarily disagree is in the idea that doing "all you can" is insufficient. I believe it is. I believe that that is exactly what is being asked of us. I believe that is exactly why the Atonement was made. And if someone literally tries their best to keep the law of chastity (or any other law), but literally cannot then one will not be held accountable for that. Of course, as you suggest, everyone just makes that excuse ("I couldn't help myself") and it's generally bogus, because they actually could but they would not. But if they actually can't...it's a different matter.
I believe if one has a legitimate condition where one cannot fully fast for 24 hours refraining entirely from all food and drink, but they do what they can, in humility and faith, no blessings will be lost.
Some stuff I came across reading up and researching on the matter...:
I liked the idea given here from Mosiah 4:26 "for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2007/09/fast-enough?lang=eng
And here where it states: "Those with a medical condition that would be worsened by fasting should exercise wisdom and modify their approach." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2012/06/fasting-strengthens-us-spiritually-and-temporally?lang=eng
And this article was helpful too: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2008/09/to-the-point/i-have-a-medical-condition-that-keeps-me-from-fasting-but-i-still-want-fast-sunday-to-be-special-how-can-i-bring-the-spirit-closer-to-me-on-fast-sundays?lang=eng
These aren't given to try and say I'm right and you're wrong. Just some stuff I came across while looking into it.
On a side note: I'm actually grateful for this thread. It's forced me to reconsider my commitment to fasting and to admit that I have not had the right attitude about it for some time. I need to improve.

Another thought as I read: In D&C 59 it says:
13 And on this day thou shalt do none other thing, only let thy food be prepared with singleness of heart that thy fasting may be perfect, or, in other words, that thy joy may be full.
14 Verily, this is fasting and prayer, or in other words, rejoicing and prayer.

At first I felt a bit confused because I know we should rejoice while fasting, but defining fasting as rejoicing didn't click. So I clicked on the link for the word fasting and got:
IE hungering and thirsting after righteousness; see Matt. 5:6; 3 Ne. 12:6. TG Fast, Fasting.
Matthew 5:6
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
3 Nephi 12:6
6 And blessed are all they who do hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled with the Holy Ghost.

And I was struck by the idea that fasting is an ensample of just this.... hungering and thirsting after righteousness. It is, perhaps, meant to connect us in that manner. Our strong desire for food when we are physically hungry is meant to be related to the strong desire we should have for righteousness and knowing our Father in Heaven. I have been mindful of the idea of hungering and thirsting after righteousness for a time now, and so connecting fasting to that was insightful to me.

This is not unlike my realization that, given a choice of living like the ancient Nephite disciples, I would quickly and firmly choose dying at 72 and being with Christ over living in a translated state for two thousand years to help prepare the vineyard for his return.
I do think that we perhaps put too much emphasis on what we feel and think right now versus what we're trying to become. I have found that, at least for me, my perception/viewpoint largely determines how I evaluate things. As a parent, I have usually been happy, and almost always at least willing, to make even difficult sacrifices for my children. If I viewed celestial life using that lens, I would certainly find myself much more willing to be compliant with, and even embrace, the necessary sacrifices.
But from a purely selfish level, of course celestial life doesn't sound appealing. I think we need to take God's word at face value that "eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." If we wait until we comprehend God's gifts before we qualify ourselves to receive them, we will never receive them.

I have had a similar thought that many Christian believers will inherit a kingdom of glory just like they wanted only to find out they had set their sights far too low. Though I fully expect many are also sufficiently faithful to the knowledge they possess that they will accept the fullness of the gospel when given the chance.
I was listening to a BYU speech recently where the speaker talked about the importance of learning to love to serve because that is what it means to be exalted. It wasn't a new idea for me but it did make me stop and reassess how much I desired exaltation based on that definition. I decided I needed to cultivate that desire a little more.
In regards to your comment about the constant need for sacrifice in ministering to lesser kingdoms it does raise an interesting question of what eternal life consists of once everything pertaining to this life is finalized at the end of the millennium and what the relationship will be between those of the different kingdoms. I had always assumed that once everything is finalized that those who receive exaltation will turn their focus to the next generation of spiritual beings, their own children. Are you proposing that there will be an ongoing responsibility on the part Celestial beings to serve lesser kingdoms?

That word "sufficiently" caught my attention too. Clearly the Lord does not expect perfection from us before we can access the atonement so there must be some level of humility and repentance required before He grants his grace so perhaps that is what Alma is referring to.
But like you said, that statement on pride seems to imply that still ultimately is not good enough. Perhaps it's a progressive thing, step one and then step two.

That word "sufficiently" caught my attention too. Clearly the Lord does not expect perfection from us before we can access the atonement so there must be some level of humility and repentance required before He grants his grace so perhaps that is what Alma is referring to.
But like you said, that statement on pride seems to imply that still ultimately is not good enough. Perhaps it's a progressive thing, step one and then step two.

That word "sufficiently" caught my attention too. Clearly the Lord does not expect perfection from us before we can access the atonement so there must be some level of humility and repentance required before He grants his grace so perhaps that is what Alma is referring to.
But like you said, that statement on pride seems to imply that still ultimately is not good enough. Perhaps it's a progressive thing, step one and then step two.

Alma 5: 27 Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins? 28 Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life.
In the context of these verses is Alma simply being repetitive to emphasize the importance of being humble or is he speaking of different things? I have always just assumed he was saying the same thing but using opposing terminology. But in a talk I heard recently it was said that we shouldn't just assume we already know the complete meaning of God's word and to continually seek additional insight. So that is what I'm doing.

Alma 5: 27 Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins? 28 Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life.
In the context of these verses is Alma simply being repetitive to emphasize the importance of being humble or is he speaking of different things? I have always just assumed he was saying the same thing but using opposing terminology. But in a talk I heard recently it was said that we shouldn't just assume we already know the complete meaning of God's word and to continually seek additional insight. So that is what I'm doing.

Dedicatory prayers. But those aren't your typical prayers.

Dedicatory prayers. But those aren't your typical prayers.

I think all such natural inclinations for these things (natural meaning not those who arrive at that state only because they have moved from one baser sin to the next) are a product of the fall and as such will be corrected in the resurrection.

A couple of thoughts. I'm not sure exactly how any previously mortal being could assist in the judging. Perhaps they can be a witness to what happened but not the judge. Even bishops now must rely on God via the Spirit to render a righteous judgement. I think the judgement will be no less personal than Christ appearing to the Nephites and inviting each to come feel his wounds.
As concerning the apostles judging the 12 tribes I think this is not a judging of individuals but rather a declaration that the gospel was indeed taught among them and they are therefore accountable for what they know.
In the end I don't really see the need for anyone to make accusations. We will know that God knows and that's all there is to it. Jesus will be our Advocate and God will be our Omniscient Judge and no one will walk away feeling that they had been cheated, except by themselves.

I will extend this tread with my thinking concerning the various state of things upon the completions of the great plan of salvation.  One aspect of all this was for a long time quite confusing and a paradox for me.  I have thought that the prime difference between good and evil (light and dark) is the standard stuff.  Good is mostly things like honesty, kindness, love of G-d and keeping G-d’s laws and commandments.  Bad is mostly lying, cruelty, hate towards G-d (and others) and a disregard for G-d’s laws.  However, it seems that the war and division was not over such ideas of good and evil – but rather the prime difference was all about agency and how agency may be deployed. 
I assume the problem was not so much for agency used for “good” as it was about possible agency of others in unapproved manners.  I am thinking Lucifer was all about agency for himself but not for other – others that he believed would use their agency for things which he did not approve of.   Obviously, this is not exactly what is the conclusion of the religious community as a whole.   This little pandora’s box of agency is difficult to deal with once opened.  That is; what happens when agency is used to bring about undesirable things?  I will leave this discussion for later and deal with the various uses of agency.
I believe the first thing to understand is the idea of spirituality as the “light of truth”.  That which is spirit (spirituality) is that which emits light because it is light.  This is a most profound notion.  In science all matter, as we understand matter emits light.  All matter emits radio waves in the spectrum of light.  Radio waves exist at the lowest end of the electromagnetic spectrum.  There are no emissions lower than radio waves – by definition.  There is something in our universe that does not emit light that we can detect – we think.  We call this stuff dark matter and dark energy.  Every thing else (matter and energy) that we understand with our science and physics emits energy (light).
Let us talk about the possibilities of agency starting with “outer darkness”.  This is a state that very few in mortality will exercise their agency to achieve.  Maybe zero or fewer than we can count on our fingers?  I speculate that it is called “outer darkness” because that place does not emit or give off any light (spiritual light of truth).  The only definite descriptor of an individual we have is Lucifer or Satan – which is a being in which there is no light, only darkness.  Lucifer used agency to become Satan – the master of darkness.  I am thinking we call him darkness because he does not and cannot not emit any light.  Whatever light he encounters is completely used up or altered to become darkness.  He is perhaps something quite powerful in our universe?
The Doctrine and Covenants tells us that agency is to be exercised in the sphere in which G-d (a Celestial being) has placed intelligence.  We are also told that without agency – There is no existence”.  I speculate that G-d created the sphere of outer darkness so that dark intelligence can have a place to exist according to their agency.  Since G-d is a being of light – I speculate that G-d provides the light necessary so that their can be a place of outer darkness, but that light is used and changed by the beings there such that no light is ever emitted – ever – only darkness.  I also speculate that without G-d (a Celestial being of light) that outer darkness could be sustained.  Therefore, it is because of the compassion and mercy of G-d that there is a place for Satan and his angles of darkness.
Now I will give my thought of the kingdoms of “Glory” that are called telestial and terrestrial glories.  I speculate that these are kingdoms that emit some light.  In scripture this light is compared to the corresponding stars and moon of our earthly night sky.  Though the moon is brighter than any star these lights are insufficient to sustain life.  My assumption is that these kingdoms require the light of G-d (a Celestial being) in order to sustain those individuals that utilized their agency for such glories.   In essence they do not desire to be a being of a source of light like unto G-d – that sacrifices portions of His light to provide for those who exercise agency in a manner to rely upon that light provided by others to sustain their glory.  Yet they are willing to give off some light (of varying degrees like unto the stars and moon or our night sky) for others – perhaps within their level of glory or less?
This post is getting quite long – I will end this post here and leave my understanding of Celestial beings for perhaps another time.
 
The Traveler

I have thought and mediated on your intriguing question.  Thank you for asking – hopefully I have understood your question.  We are told in scripture that our mortal experience (daily living) is a unique experience like no other in our eternal progression.  This experience is also called a time of trial whereby we act on faith.  I believe we are flooded with choices that must be made in moments void of understanding the aggerate consequences.
But we are given spiritual assistance in dealing with these choices.  First, we all come into this life with the spirit of Christ with an ability to sense good from evil.  In the Book of Mormon – Alma – addresses this spiritual ability as a seed that when nourished allows us to build assurity what is good from evil.
Next, we enter into covenants that allow connection to our divine roots.  These covenants are anchors in eternal laws.  Perhaps the example of our weekly sacrament covenant demonstrates the connection.  We promise, by taking the emblems of the sacrament to “take upon the name of Christ” and to “always remember Christ”.
I believe that taking the name of Christ we are legally bound, similar to power of attorney, to act in and behalf of Christ.  In essence we become the example of what we believe as Christ to all with whom we associate.  This is not a provision by which we can judge the actions of others – as it is to be aware of ourselves.  In essence we conduct a scientific experiment on ourselves where, by our actions, we put our current understanding of Christ on trial by our choices. 
Let me take this a step farther.  Let’s say, that during our day we are faced with what we perceive as a wrong against ourselves or some other.  If, we become angry, we can evaluate from our understanding if this anger how well we understand Christ and how He would act.  I reference anger because for myself I have discovered that anger is seldom (if ever) Christ like.  That forgiveness, compassion and mercy seem (at least to me) a more Christ like response.
According to our covenant with G-d, as a Saint of G-d, if we discover that we have acted improperly we have the opportunity to repent.  I believe that repentance is both something within ourselves to desire to change and in addition an external effort to apologize to those we afflicted with our anger.
I have used anger because it is such a challenge to me personally – not so much any more as anger I express or show but at this point an anger within myself, kept to myself – That I can more easily overcome as I remember Christ and my covenants.
I am under the impression that becoming Christ like is not a means of deciphering the problems of others as it is seeing myself and having compassion and mercy for others.  The compassion and mercy for other is difficult for me.  I see this in me as a choice rather than a feeling – because I do not experience feeling as deeply as others.  My wife has such deep feelings and tells me I am the strange one and that most are like her.  Sometimes I think, that because I do not connect well with feelings, that it ought to be easier for me to choose compassion and mercy.   To be honest, I often find it illogical or unjust that some should be treated with compassion and mercy.  But then I remember that Jesus Christ sacrificed his life so that the unjust are forgiven their mortal errors.  I believe that very day is a struggle for a Saint of G-d in this mortal fallen life.
 
The Traveler

Oh yes!  I've been in that position many times for many bishops, meeting in an otherwise empty ward building with individual youth or sisters.  Actually, I think that's where I came up with the phrase.   My first bishop I ever executive-secretary'd for was something of a spiritual powerhouse, with a regular flow of repentant sinners taking up his last appointment, which often went long into the evening.  I remember many, many times when I'd be there reading my book in the clerk's office at 7, 8 pm, even later, when I'd finally hear the bishop's door open.  Final teary words of gratitude, and the person would walk away from us and towards the exit, and the bishop would walk towards me, sometimes leaning a bit, with a big smile on his face and say something like "Well Bro NT, we changed a heart tonight."  He'd always thank me profusely for making it possible for him to do such important things.  
Yep, that's where I got the phrase.   The atonement was working miracles less than 10 feet and one wall away from me, and I was helping.  Just by standing there with a dumb look on my face.

I think all such natural inclinations for these things (natural meaning not those who arrive at that state only because they have moved from one baser sin to the next) are a product of the fall and as such will be corrected in the resurrection.

In my version of the Celestial Kingdom you are not necessarily given anything other than endless possibilities.  
The Celestial Kingdom is the only place where damnation does not occur - there are no limitations (other than sin).
You will not necessarily be given your own mansion or solar system.
But, you will have access to information, power, and raw materials.  Your ideas, diligence, love, etc, will determine your mansion - be it a nice tiny home. Or a galaxy of your personal design.
You do you.

I got you. Thank you for clarifying. Cheers.

Alma 40:30 Now, I unfold unto you a mystery; nevertheless, there are many mysteries which are kept, that no one knoweth them save God himself. But I show unto you one thing which I have inquired diligently of God that I might know...
This is where true gospel scholarship comes from. That's not to say there isn't a place for the likes of Hugh Nibley and others. I personally really enjoy learning from them. But personal revelation is a far superior mode of instruction and something we may unintentionally move away from when we feast too heavily on the words of scholars.