Midwest LDS
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Posts posted by Midwest LDS
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14 hours ago, Carborendum said:
I'm seeing a very disturbing pattern. And I'm hoping some of you may talk me off of the EOTW cliff I seem to be looking over.
I figure that society only sticks together because we have a governmental structure with a system of laws and enforcement of those laws, a network of economic and financial agreements and systems, the supply chain of goods and services, and enforcement of contracts and agreements. But all of that will only work as long as government functions on some fundamental level.
The shutdown itself is not the problem. Nor is it the virus. It is the fight we're having over the shutdown and the virus. People are exercising their right to civil disobedience in ever increasing numbers. Executives, legislators, and judiciary are having feuds over who gets the last word. Even the so called "supremacy of the judiciary" is becoming less sure. And it's not in the same attitude that I'm used to seeing. There were always checks and balances, but I used the word feud for a reason. The tone has shifted. How often have you heard the word "draconian" in the last month?
I'm just reading all this from bits and pieces all over the news. That's my impression. I'm really concerned that the nature of the way government functions is showing signs of... the rumors of ... revolution.
Does everyone just take this in stride? Or is the "feud" just the same old checks and balances there have always been? Am I over-reacting? I'm just ... concerned. i'm not panicking. Like I have said many times. I notice patterns. And I can project that pattern. The projections are usually accurate as long as the pattern is not interrupted. Is there a sign that it will be interrupted?
You're not the only one who's concerned. I'm a historian, and frankly I see disturbing parallels to the political situation just prior to the Civil War. The issues are different of course, but the general attitude of contention and the refusal to cooperate with the other side that pervaded the country during that period is very similar to what we are going through now. Politics have always been contentious, but after the yelling and screaming during the election, we (all pronouns from here on out are generic and I recognize exceptions exist to my generalizations) buckled down and got things done together (Johnson's Civil Rights Act was passed with Republican and Northern Democratic support, Reagan and Tip O'Neill battled in public, but got things done behind the scenes and were friends etc.). Even as recently as 9/11 we came together as a nation. After the terrorist attack we were all Americans at least for a little while, and Democrats joined Republicans in persecuting the terrorists who attacked us. But we can't seem to do that now. We are in the middle of a crisis right this second and are we coming together? No, each side is so consumed with blaming the other side for all the country's problems, and are so obsessed with weird conspiracy theories that we can't even admit the other side has a right to exist, let alone work with them to fix the problem. We are like a married couple who's about to get divorced and can't see the good that attracted us to the other person in the first place, we can only see the faults. Now please note I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm just seeing patterns where none exist, and that we will continue along just fine. But I'm concerned.
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3 hours ago, Carborendum said:
Some thesaurus. He didn't even use "importunity" correctly. Pfbfbbtt.
Actually as a teacher, let me say this may be intentional. I can usually tell when a student used a thesaurus to write out their answers because they almost never use the word they've found correctly. It just sounds "smart" to them so they throw it in.
- Vort, Carborendum and Jamie123
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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:
Some bad news. My mom just died Tuesday night. It was a heart attack. But it is going to go down as a COVID death because she had it a few weeks back (very mildly). She was fully recovered, but they heard she had it, so... SMH. We can't have a funeral because of COVID. And we're not sure about a virtual service.
I'm really sorry for your loss.
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38 minutes ago, Carborendum said:
War has already been waged between nuclear powered nations. They just saw the futility of actually using those nuclear arms in a war. So, conventional means continue.
That's true (I assume you mean Pakistan and India). But there hasn't been a major conflict yet. The fighting was bad enough as it was I don't mean to downplay it. But neither Pakistan nor India was trying to completely defeat the other. No armies were marching towards Islamabad or New Delhi the fighting was all on the border. But it's still taking a risk. All it takes is one side making the wrong kind of mistake or having the wrong kind of arrogant leader in charge who thinks he's got a plan that's sure to work and mushrooms clouds could easily start appearing. Therefore I prefer no active conflict between nuclear armed foes (I know you aren't arguing for conflict either I'm just clarifying my point.)
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35 minutes ago, MormonGator said:
Do you have any idea how many innocent lives will be lost if we entered into a war with China? Which, by the way, will never happen.
The idea of a war between any nuclear armed nations is too horrifying to consider. God willing, and I mean that as a sincere prayer, it will never happen as the death toll would be nightmarish.
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38 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:
Even before the pandemic, a couple could get married civilly and then get sealed whenever they want. This has always been the policy outside of the USA, and for the USA as of 2-3(?) years ago.
I do know several couples whom were scheduled for Apr/May weddings/sealings and we directly affected by these closures. I will say that some of them did move up their wedding dates, but this was largely relating to fear that the courthouses would close and they wouldn't be able to get married at all. They want to obey the Lord's commandments and come together in unity. Even if they can't get sealed right away -- which historically was actually the most common thing to do (remember how up until recently temples would be hundreds if not thousands of miles away?).
These couples & families also been dealing with the reality that any family celebrations for their marriage will have to wait quite a while till after they've actually tied the knot.
Oh I know, I was speaking specifically about the United States (I should have specified that, we are an international church). Secondly, I should mention that I hated being single and my marriage day was one of the happiest days of my life. Meeting my wife was one of the best things that has ever happened to me, up there with finding the Gospel of Jesus Christ, or watching the birth of my child. I wouldn't have wanted to wait even one extra second to marry her, so I would've married her with my bishop presiding even if it was just the two of us rather than wait until the temple's opened up again. That's just me though, and I understand some people would have waited.
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9 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:
Hot off the presses:
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/multimedia/file/0507-Phased-Reopening-of-Temples.pdf
Starting May 11, 17 temples will open, only for sealing people previously endowed.
Dang - imagine being one of those people. You've got a ring and a date, have received your endowments, and are all set to be sealed. And then a 2 month hard stop because of the pandemic. Glad they're starting back up for these people.
COVID baby boom in October, with hopefully a 2nd wave of LDS births 2-3 months later, because they were able to wait.
I was super happy to see this, and I agree I bet a lot of couples are excited and ready to get sealed. However, I bet a lot of people took advantage of the fact that you can get civilly married now and not have to wait on getting sealed, to tie the knot while they waited for the temples to start to reopen. I remember being engaged and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been able to wait to be married if I'd already planned on being married when everything closed down lol☺.
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Just now, NeuroTypical said:Yay Colorado 2nd phase! Nonessential businesses and services are coming back.Non-urgent optional medical service obtained. Filthy truck run through the non-essential carwash which is back up and running!Masks, handwashing, and social distancing still the norm, but dang, I'm glad the car wash place is back up and running. Don't want no businesses going under. The kid running the line looked very happy to be there.Any good things coming back to you folks?
Yep nonessential businesses are opening up today in Indiana. Restaurants at 50% capacity next week. We are also still observing social distancing, hand washing etc, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't excited to get back to my beloved bookstores.
- Jane_Doe and NeuroTypical
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6 minutes ago, Colirio said:
As someone who has traveled and attended sacrament meetings in many different places, I have found it to be less of a geographic cultural focus as much as a “local church culture thing.” There have been wards that focused on such things as kneeling on both knees, priesthood holders must wear white shirts and ties, holding one hand behind the back while passing the sacrament tray, etc. Fortunately, the new handbook helps clarify the essentials and discourages certain traditions.In my own opinion, I find some “church culture” traditions somewhat pharisaical, but understand that they are probably well meaning in trying to maintain a reverent atmosphere for such a sacred ordinance.
If you really want a throwback, research how administering the sacrament used to have the priesthood holder raise his arm to the square or even both arms to the square.
That makes sense and I agree that some of these traditions really do seem like they are trying to "put a hedge around the law" so to speak (I also agree that most if not all are well meaning). I can't imagine having to put both arms to the square while blessing the Sacrament. I'd do it if my local leadership asked me too of course, but it seems somewhat cumbersome.
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2 hours ago, MarginOfError said:
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know where the "must kneel on two knees" thing comes from? My stake presidency started getting on our case because they would occasionally see missionaries in our ward kneel on one knee and wanted us to correct them. I always refused to do so because I've never seen anything that states two knees is a requirement.
I don't know, it must only be a thing in certain parts of the church. I've never kneeled on two knees, it's a comfort thing as it's a lot easier to kneel on one knee than two, and no one has ever said anything to me when I bless the Sacrament that way. But most of my church experience has been in Indiana and Tennessee so maybe it's a western thing.
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1 hour ago, MormonGator said:
You and your love of summary executions. Goodness, you are turning into @Midwest LDS with your love of "tyranny".
How else are you supposed to keep the peasants in line?
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2 hours ago, Vort said:
Another way of saying this is as follows: The "price" we have to "pay" to receive Christ's grace is simply to accept his grace. And as Christ himself taught us, to accept his grace is to love him, which means to keep his commandments. Those efforts do not save us; Christ saves us. But we are saved because we are Christ's, and the way we become Christ's is by doing what he told us to do.
I enjoyed this discussion immensely, and just thought I'd add something related to the above point. I think part of the issue is some, members and non members alike, confuse faith and Grace. I've listened to members bear witness that we are saved by Christ through Grace and works when they meant to say faith instead of Grace. It complicates things, because then people think we don't believe we are saved and exalted by the Grace of Christ, but rather our own efforts and his Grace. The idea that there is some mystical amount of works we have to complete before the Lord's Grace kicks in, in other words. I try to make sure I clarify that we gain access to Christ's Grace through our faith and our works or, as you stated, that is the "price" we pay to be saved by Christ's Grace.
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7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:
Believe me PC, I'm sympathetic (big time, actually. And I think @Midwest LDS would agree with me*) to encroaching big government. And I'm an absolutist for individual liberty. But I'm not an anarchist or someone who just throws words around. The mayor was doing their best to protect their citizens-even if I disagreed with what they did.
* I only dragged @Midwest LDS in because him and I have had long conversations about government/politics.
Hope I didn't offend you my friend!Individual freedoms must be protected, and I'm a strong literalist when it comes to the Constitution. That being said that woman was practically begging to be arrested.
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6 minutes ago, Still_Small_Voice said:
I doubt I will ever see this in my life again. The price of oil per barrel went negative yesterday. They are paying people to take barrels of oil because no one wants it! It is a huge oversupply of oil in the markets right now. That is unbelievable to me.
Back in 2008 the price of oil soared to about $145 per barrel and now they are paying people to take barrels of oil off their hands.Edit: And the cheapest I can find gasoline for around me is $2.06 per gallon.
It's a 1.34 where I live. With my grocery store points I actually paid 66 cents a gallon the other day. The lowest I had ever seen gas in my life, when I was a young child, was 1.00 a gallon. While I love cheap gas I am concerned about the economic fallout this will cause.
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31 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:
1 John 2:19 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
One of the classic disagreements among Protestant Christians is whether our conversion to Christianity is predestined or the result of free will. Coupled with that is the question of whether or not those who are converted could lose their salvation or conversion. My church sides with free will and with the understanding that it is difficult, but possible, to lose salvation. Usually belief in free will gets coupled with belief in our ability to walk away from our salvation. Those who argue for predestination (insisting it is God's prerogative alone to save souls--that we have no say in it) also contend that God's grace--for those redeemed--is irresistible, and cannot be lost.
So along come Dutcher and Dehlin (I believe that JAG is correct). Could they have been true converts to the restored gospel (even if born under the covenant) and then have turned away? Or, as has been suggested, were they never really part of the faithful? I suppose there are individual opinions about these two particular individuals, but the broader question--does the church have doctrine on this question of whether apostates were believers who left or knowers-yet-non-believers?
I can't speak to these two individuals personally as I never knew them well or followed them, but both options are a possibility. Latter-day Saints are firm believers in moral agency. Articles of Faith number 3 answers this question
3: We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
The Grace of Jesus Christ can and will heal even the vilest sinner so long as he repents of his sins and begins obeying the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. In our view, faith in Jesus Christ and works are not at war with each other, but are both necessary to partake in exaltation. Therefore if a man ceases following the commandments or loses faith in Christ (or both) he will lose his exaltation if he does not repent.
Now we do believe that all men, save those who commit the unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost, will achieve some degree of salvation hence the three degrees of glory in the world to come. So it could be said that we fall a little bit into both categories.
- Just_A_Guy, prisonchaplain and Colirio
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30 minutes ago, fatima said:
Wow! Hmmm....follow on question...your church does seem to ask a lot of members in terms of financial sacrifice...and I don't necessarily disagree because I think we (Catholics) are stingy with our church. But is this monetary donation from this fast in addition to the tithing already required to receive a temple recommend? Or is it included in that reconciling?
In addition fast offerings are different than tithes. Tithes go to the upkeep and running of the church. 100% of fast offerings go to the poor, needy and hungry.
- Jane_Doe and JohnsonJones
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8 minutes ago, MormonGator said:
I thought he was talking about my spring break years. Not my genocide years. @Midwest LDS, you aren't doing a good job of keeping my war crimes private. I need a new propaganda minster. @mirkwood, take him to the guillotine!
Hey you were the one who insisted you needed to try to conquer Russia. I pointed out that you weren't a Mongol and that everyone else has a bad track record with that goal but you insisted. Don't expect me to testify at your Hague trial.
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1 hour ago, Vort said:
JAG introduced me to this term in another thread. Here's a FAQ-style writeup about the so-called Benedictine option.
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/benedict-option-faq/
Granted that the author and his audience probably would not even recognize the Restored Church as Christian, I nevertheless think there's a lot of good thinking and, probably, truth in that article. It seems to apply quite well to us as Latter-day Saints, though we have the huge advantage of being led by a prophet. I'd like to hear what other Latter-day Saints think about this.
I had never heard of this term until I saw you and JAG talking about it in the other thread. Honestly, I think it dovetails in very nicely with President Nelson's prophetic direction to set up family centered church supported worship. I hope we have not gotten to the point that Christians were in during the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. Part of me, if I'm honest, loves the American Empire as I've always pictured it, stalwartly standing against the evils of Nazism, Imperial Japan, and Communism. Of Ronald Reagan standing in front of a waving American flag. But part of me also recognizes that that America is rapidly disappearing. I hope it doesn't get to the point in my lifetime where the Benedict option is the only path forward for us as faithful disciples of Christ, but the realist in me says we are almost there. I hope I'm just being cynical, but I don't think I am.
- Vort, lonetree and Just_A_Guy
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3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:
Well, Dubai and Shanghai were the surprises this time. Very interesting.
Agreed. Those really surprised me. Especially the one in Shanghai.
- SilentOne and Carborendum
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1 minute ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:
Maybe if we have the faith, then this can come to a swift end. May it so be is my prayer. I am very excited by this invitation.
Amen! Jesus Christ is the Master Healer. I'm excited to unite my faith with everyone else and plead for his succor and mercy in regards to this illness.
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48 minutes ago, mikbone said:
I have though about the first minute of this talk over the past 2 years, and in conjunction with President Nelson's comments such as:
"General conference next April will be different from any previous conference. In the next six months, I hope that every member and every family will prepare for a unique conference that will commemorate the very foundations of the restored gospel."
"Immerse yourself in the glorious light of the Restoration. As you do, general conference next April will be not only memorable; it will be unforgettable."
And using the term restoration repeatedly.
I have a feeling that this weekend will be special.
I believe that Elder Holland's comment about rush of revelation was not only referring to the material that was shared with the Church back in April 2018, but also with the material that the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve have been preparing to share with us this weekend.
#conferenceready
Amen brother. I've been super excited to see General Conference. Whether it's earthshaking new revelation, or just the soothing message of comfort from Christ in these times of uncertainty and fear, I am really looking forward to it. I've been blessed with a lot of spiritual growth over the last six months, so either way it's been unforgettable to me☺.
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29 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:
(please be gentle here)
Prayer & I have a complicated relationship. Or to be more specific, the "asking for things" part of prayer & I have a complicated relationship.
I don't like to ask people for things-- such is a huge move of trust for me, and I feel like I've been burned too much in the past. I'm much more comfortable doing something myself, or making do without. I don't want to trouble others, I don't want to ask and be disappointed in them. I feel like I give and give- which I do because I enjoy so much, but too often people don't give back. From the evidence, they appear to be different than me. Some aren't, but a lot of people are different in this regard.
Asking God for things...yes, I know that God is the ultimate giver, and has already given way more than I could. I got that. But I also feel.. like I shouldn't ask Him for things. Which as a parent breaks my heart- I WANT my kids to ask me for things. I know the Father does too. But when I do work up the courage to ask- something super important to me and by all indicators is a righteous request... a lot of time there is not receiving. And I hurt. I hurt a lot. And I want to hide. I don't want to ask again. I really don't.
Yes, "thy will be done". Yes, God is not a vending machine. Yes, God is equally with those that receive miraculous healing and those whom He more directly welcomes their spirits into His arms. Yes, God is equally with those whom keep their jobs, and those who are forced to leave. Yes, I know that I am blessed in some many areas. Yes, I have a GOOD life that I am so grateful for. Yes, things could be much worse. Yes, yes, I know all of those things- I recite them to myself regularly. And sometimes they help. Most times they help.
But other times... I hurt....
I'm sorry this is tough for you. I think one of the most important discoveries I've made in life is realizing that God wants me to be 100% honest with him. I know that sounds silly, because why lie to God he already knows everything, but I tried to pretend I wasn't angry or upset with him when important things I really needed were not provided. All burying my anger did was prevent me from being healed and learning to appreciate how God was guiding me and building me up. So I say, I understand sister. I've felt the same way as you before, and I will probably feel that way again. But I do know, as Nephi said in 1 Nephi 11, that "God loveth his children." God be with you in your time of trial, whatever it may be.
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Considering everything else going on this does not surprise me, but I'm saddened by the news nonetheless. I never thought I would live to see the day when temple work would ever cease even temporarily. https://www.deseret.com/faith/2020/3/25/21194822/coronavirus-mormon-church-temples-closed-coranavirus-covid19-lds-latter-day-saints
- NeuroTypical and NeedleinA
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The Bishop holds the keys for his ward and is authorized to act as he sees fit via revelation, but the Stake President has keys for the whole Stake including the Bishop's ward. His direction can and does supercede the Bishop's authority when necessary. And it goes all the way up the chain. The Prophet holds the keys for the whole church. If President Nelson said no further Sacrament is to be administered until I say otherwise, all priesthood holders no matter what keys they hold, would be bound by that statement.