Traveler

I have wondered if this is a prelude to other things (change) to come.  I am convinced that nothing happens without reason and as time has altered our social structure so will the ordinances of G-d conform to accommodate social changes in civil law.  As traditional marriage and family has become a threat to social justice; a growing number have decided that a union between a man and a woman should not define lawful marriage - I have pondered if the day will come when marriages are no longer performed in temples - only sealings.  This would be necessary if enemies of the traditional family and the Church attempted to force the Church to perform homosexual marriages to maintain legal licence to marry.  So, in essence the Church would no longer perform marriages (either in the temple or outside the temple, such as a bishop performing a marriage for time only).
This would mean that all marriages would be performed according to civil and lawful authority (from which the Church would voluntarily withdraw) and that only sealing would be performed in the temple.  So I ponder if The L-rd is setting the table to preserve the ordinance of sealing without conflicting with changes to civil law.   Those that are rejoicing in such policy changes may not realize the winds that are causing the sails to be set differently are not signalling better times - but rather a widening of the gap separating the Saints of G-d from the world. 
 
The Traveler

Perhaps I am missing something but I have never seen and scripture or heard any prophet suggest that there is any obligation or suggestion that a Saint of G-d pay off someone else's financial debt.  We can forgive those in debt to us (which I have done) but I am am concerned that many "poor" expect to accumulate debt with the intent that someone else will pay it off.  I believe it is the plan of G-d that we all become invested in "overcoming".  I sometimes think there is a miscarriage of that debt resolution is free.  It appears to me that G-d does not intend to pay off debts that we are not willing to strive in some way or effort ourselves.
It is also my understanding that one cannot live the law of consecration or even the United Order if they are in debt.
 
The Traveler

Perhaps I am missing something but I have never seen and scripture or heard any prophet suggest that there is any obligation or suggestion that a Saint of G-d pay off someone else's financial debt.  We can forgive those in debt to us (which I have done) but I am am concerned that many "poor" expect to accumulate debt with the intent that someone else will pay it off.  I believe it is the plan of G-d that we all become invested in "overcoming".  I sometimes think there is a miscarriage of that debt resolution is free.  It appears to me that G-d does not intend to pay off debts that we are not willing to strive in some way or effort ourselves.
It is also my understanding that one cannot live the law of consecration or even the United Order if they are in debt.
 
The Traveler

@LineUponLine When it comes to riches I learned more from the home I was raised in.  My father who was very wealthy never bought a new car and usually was seen in public wearing overalls.  I listened as many came to my father for advice.  So I will quote my father - he said that he could teach anyone to be wealthy in 5 minutes - it was easy.  In fact he said that the principles of wealth are more certain than the principles of poverty.  He would say that the first principle of wealth is love and service.  He taught that if we love others we will labor in service and we will love doing things that benefit and teach others and we will do it longer, harder and with joy than those that do no love and commit to service.  He would say that we should be willing not just to work hard but to love and enjoy doing it.  He would say it is not natural to love to work - one must learn and cultivate a love of work and service.  Like the principles of truth in the gospel we must first learn to be an example and able to show others before we can teach anything.  In essence, true poverty is not being short of money but short of work and service to do.  By the same token true wealth is not the possession of money but facing each day determined to do more that what time will allow.
I will say it again - no one is helped by giving them money.  No one!!!  The greatest wealth that can be given is the knowledge that a person is and the opportunity for themself to be the greatest asset and that their contribution is the greatest single factor in their honor, agency, worth, liberty and success.  The first principle of wealth is not work or even hard work but the love and shere joy of hard work.
The second principle of wealth is easier than the first and requires no effort whatsoever.  It is to spend less than you earn.  My father would tell people there is no happiness in debt.  There is no joy or satisfaction in debt and regardless of what you or anyone else does - you will not find joy or happiness being in debt.  And regardless of how hard you work or what you receive as gifts or service from others - debt will destroy any possibility of joy and happiness.  As long as someone is in debt they will be poor - even if they live in a mansion.  Debt will also destroy one's love and passion for work and will always create jealousy and envy (even hate) of others.  There are few things more evil and cruel than willingly accepting debt.
 
The Traveler

@LineUponLine  I would point out that the United Order is not the Law of Consecration but was intended to help teach the law.  There are two parts to the Law of Consecration.  One is that we give of our surplus.  The other is that we are given according to our needs and abilities.  My understanding is that money is not given to the poor but that the poor are provided assistance.  The operative word is assistance.  It is also the Law of Heaven that those that refuse to labor are not to eat the same as the laborer.   Industry is the central part of the Law of Consecration.  That we work and labor for the kingdom of G-d.
There are times of great need that the Saints of G-d are called upon to assist those in need but it has never been the intent of G-d to create Zion as a welfare state or a socialism as a governing economic system.  It has always been the intent that in Zion all shall labor for the benefit of Zion and that idleness is to be done away with.  And so each family is to be established upon principles of industry and labor.  What is needed to maximise and enhance our industry should be invested from the increases we receive from our labor and our surplus donated to helping the poor.  Currently we give our surplus according to our covenant of the Law of Consecration in the form of "Fast Offerings".  In addition we can also provide for the humanitarian fund, the missionary fund and the the perpetual education fund.
There is one last point in living the law of consecration - that is that we meet once a year with our bishop and review our tithing and donations to various funds.  At that time we are to console wit the bishop for various needs and where we should donate our surplus for the next year and then covenant with the L-rd to so invest our surplus.  I submit that there are among us Saints currently living the covenant and Law of Consecration.
 
The Traveler

The purpose of this church is to prepare a people for the return of Jesus for his reign of 1,000 years to finish all that is necessary to complete the plan of salvation of man.  Many think in terms of destroying the wicked but that is just a secondary consequence.  The primary purpose is to establish a society of Saints of G-d that are necessary both for his return and the completion (restoration) of all things.  The greatest need or accomplishment of the Saints are families.  Families that are centered around and dedicated to the divine union of a man and a woman in marriage.  Although there is much needed to be done in the temples - the foundation of preparations and the greater work will be done in the homes of the Saints.
I believe that the referbations of the temple are a type and shadow of what needs to be done in the home.  That our homes need to be physically clean and beautiful as well as spiritually pure and peaceful.  I am concerned that children are not being taught to keep homes (personal space) physically clean and beautiful and spiritually pure and peaceful.
 
The Traveler

@LineUponLine When it comes to riches I learned more from the home I was raised in.  My father who was very wealthy never bought a new car and usually was seen in public wearing overalls.  I listened as many came to my father for advice.  So I will quote my father - he said that he could teach anyone to be wealthy in 5 minutes - it was easy.  In fact he said that the principles of wealth are more certain than the principles of poverty.  He would say that the first principle of wealth is love and service.  He taught that if we love others we will labor in service and we will love doing things that benefit and teach others and we will do it longer, harder and with joy than those that do no love and commit to service.  He would say that we should be willing not just to work hard but to love and enjoy doing it.  He would say it is not natural to love to work - one must learn and cultivate a love of work and service.  Like the principles of truth in the gospel we must first learn to be an example and able to show others before we can teach anything.  In essence, true poverty is not being short of money but short of work and service to do.  By the same token true wealth is not the possession of money but facing each day determined to do more that what time will allow.
I will say it again - no one is helped by giving them money.  No one!!!  The greatest wealth that can be given is the knowledge that a person is and the opportunity for themself to be the greatest asset and that their contribution is the greatest single factor in their honor, agency, worth, liberty and success.  The first principle of wealth is not work or even hard work but the love and shere joy of hard work.
The second principle of wealth is easier than the first and requires no effort whatsoever.  It is to spend less than you earn.  My father would tell people there is no happiness in debt.  There is no joy or satisfaction in debt and regardless of what you or anyone else does - you will not find joy or happiness being in debt.  And regardless of how hard you work or what you receive as gifts or service from others - debt will destroy any possibility of joy and happiness.  As long as someone is in debt they will be poor - even if they live in a mansion.  Debt will also destroy one's love and passion for work and will always create jealousy and envy (even hate) of others.  There are few things more evil and cruel than willingly accepting debt.
 
The Traveler

@LineUponLine When it comes to riches I learned more from the home I was raised in.  My father who was very wealthy never bought a new car and usually was seen in public wearing overalls.  I listened as many came to my father for advice.  So I will quote my father - he said that he could teach anyone to be wealthy in 5 minutes - it was easy.  In fact he said that the principles of wealth are more certain than the principles of poverty.  He would say that the first principle of wealth is love and service.  He taught that if we love others we will labor in service and we will love doing things that benefit and teach others and we will do it longer, harder and with joy than those that do no love and commit to service.  He would say that we should be willing not just to work hard but to love and enjoy doing it.  He would say it is not natural to love to work - one must learn and cultivate a love of work and service.  Like the principles of truth in the gospel we must first learn to be an example and able to show others before we can teach anything.  In essence, true poverty is not being short of money but short of work and service to do.  By the same token true wealth is not the possession of money but facing each day determined to do more that what time will allow.
I will say it again - no one is helped by giving them money.  No one!!!  The greatest wealth that can be given is the knowledge that a person is and the opportunity for themself to be the greatest asset and that their contribution is the greatest single factor in their honor, agency, worth, liberty and success.  The first principle of wealth is not work or even hard work but the love and shere joy of hard work.
The second principle of wealth is easier than the first and requires no effort whatsoever.  It is to spend less than you earn.  My father would tell people there is no happiness in debt.  There is no joy or satisfaction in debt and regardless of what you or anyone else does - you will not find joy or happiness being in debt.  And regardless of how hard you work or what you receive as gifts or service from others - debt will destroy any possibility of joy and happiness.  As long as someone is in debt they will be poor - even if they live in a mansion.  Debt will also destroy one's love and passion for work and will always create jealousy and envy (even hate) of others.  There are few things more evil and cruel than willingly accepting debt.
 
The Traveler

The purpose of this church is to prepare a people for the return of Jesus for his reign of 1,000 years to finish all that is necessary to complete the plan of salvation of man.  Many think in terms of destroying the wicked but that is just a secondary consequence.  The primary purpose is to establish a society of Saints of G-d that are necessary both for his return and the completion (restoration) of all things.  The greatest need or accomplishment of the Saints are families.  Families that are centered around and dedicated to the divine union of a man and a woman in marriage.  Although there is much needed to be done in the temples - the foundation of preparations and the greater work will be done in the homes of the Saints.
I believe that the referbations of the temple are a type and shadow of what needs to be done in the home.  That our homes need to be physically clean and beautiful as well as spiritually pure and peaceful.  I am concerned that children are not being taught to keep homes (personal space) physically clean and beautiful and spiritually pure and peaceful.
 
The Traveler

I think they do. I know that when my daughter was stillborn and I elected to be induced, it was counted as an abortion.  Makes me sick to think of that. I could have waited for my body to go into labor naturally, BUT because I couldn't handle that idea, it's an abortion because  I elected to end the pregnancy.  
My sister was induced at 18 weeks. her baby had been dead for 2 weeks. It was also counted as an abortion.  
 
 They need to be better with the wordings. Chosing to end a pregnancy with a dead baby shouldn't count as an abortion.  

My old GF from college is an antivaxer...  She blames her kids autism on vaccines. I am glad she married someone else.  

Well, that escalated quickly . . .  
Can we agree that Jesus *did* appear privately to Paul and to John the Revelator after His ascension to Heaven, in such a way as not to constitute His Second Coming? 
If we do agree on that, then why did John bother to write his experience down; and why did Paul bother to tell others what he had seen?  Why not just tell Jesus “hey, if you want everyone to know what You told me—do it Yourself”?

Props to @Just_A_Guy! I had no idea where this alleged warning against meeting with Jesus in secret/private places was coming from.  I see Jesus every day, in my prayer closet.

It is about potential.  As safe as hydro-electrical is and has been - I would not live downstream from a major hydroelectric dam either.   I may go for a day, white water rafting.  I was once offered a job automating nuclear waste but turned it down because I do not want to be responsible for that.  I did work for a while with designing nuclear weapon systems for our defense department.  Hopefully, I will not regret that.
Perhaps someday we will use nuclear fusion for power - but with all our looking into the universe for intelligent life - there is no sign anywhere that anyone other than us here on earth are using controlled nuclear reactions for power.  If there was there is a unique electromagnetic signature that would be broadcast like a beacon - and as yet there is no sign of any such method anywhere else in our universe.
 
The Traveler

It is my personal observation that agnosticism is more a conclusion of religion and the rejection of religion than a observation directly related to the universe.  In short more of a failure of religion than of science (since science and not religion is blamed for agnosticism).  I am of a different opinion in that I think flawed religion is more to blame for agnosticism than is flawed science.  I  believe you opinion may be based more in not understanding what a agnostic is concluding.  Please allow me to make an observation and use historical Christianity (creation from nothing - ex nihilo) as an example.  The only possibility for diversity in thought, believe and behavior could only exist if G-d created it to be so - but historical Christianity insists that man (man being the product of all men) is wholly responsible and that the origin, creator and designer is 100% resolved of any responsibility.  This gets even more interesting because historical Christians believe G-d to know all things - including the conclusion of every individual he created from the circumstance into which they were born.  In short it is the classical argument between free will and divine determinism (or destiny).   
From my personal observation with agnostics that I have encountered - they look at all the arguments being made by historical Christians and come to the conclusion that it is flawed.  And I believe such logic is both conclusive and accurate.
 
The Traveler

Except this one:

I like the idea of improving - especially talking about it.  However, there is one caveat that is hard to swallow.  As I have gotten older, I have come to realize that I am not doing anything better.  I use to bike 100 miles on a Saturday and breeze past every other biker I encountered.  Now I am rarely pass anybody - recently I cramped on a hill and was passed by a jogger and I am worn out in just 50 miles at a fraction of the pace I used to ride at.  Intellectually things are much the same but I suspect that in some ways I am blessed to not be able to remember all the things I have forgotten.  I would like to say that spiritually I have become a giant but that is just not true - as much as I love my grandkids I do not look forward to spending more than a few hours with them.  When our kids were young I enjoyed vacations, especially backpacking into wilderness areas and week long white water rafting trips.  Now it seems that the grandkids drive me crazy on such outings.  I use to look forward to new callings and challenges - now I think I look forward more to being released.  
In many ways some of the thoughts expressed remind me of a recent discussion I had with a youth in our ward.  We talk often about skiing - this winter season was one of the best ever.  My young friend asked me if I was one of the skiers that zip and bounce down through the moguls and then turn around an ski backwards passing other skiers and then skiing backwards go off a jump doing flips and turns in the air.  I humbly admitted I often do stuff like that (and more).  He gasped and said that I must be a really good skier.  I told him I do not like to brag but I am a very good skier - However, I added - I could be a much better skier -- if I was doing all those things on purpose. 
Unlike the rich young man - I dred finding out what I lack yet (I am impressed at this point that he or anyone else would even have the guts ask) -- I certainly do not want to even ask any such thing.  I more into the working on "enduring to the end" kind of thing.
 
The Traveler

I like the idea of improving - especially talking about it.  However, there is one caveat that is hard to swallow.  As I have gotten older, I have come to realize that I am not doing anything better.  I use to bike 100 miles on a Saturday and breeze past every other biker I encountered.  Now I am rarely pass anybody - recently I cramped on a hill and was passed by a jogger and I am worn out in just 50 miles at a fraction of the pace I used to ride at.  Intellectually things are much the same but I suspect that in some ways I am blessed to not be able to remember all the things I have forgotten.  I would like to say that spiritually I have become a giant but that is just not true - as much as I love my grandkids I do not look forward to spending more than a few hours with them.  When our kids were young I enjoyed vacations, especially backpacking into wilderness areas and week long white water rafting trips.  Now it seems that the grandkids drive me crazy on such outings.  I use to look forward to new callings and challenges - now I think I look forward more to being released.  
In many ways some of the thoughts expressed remind me of a recent discussion I had with a youth in our ward.  We talk often about skiing - this winter season was one of the best ever.  My young friend asked me if I was one of the skiers that zip and bounce down through the moguls and then turn around an ski backwards passing other skiers and then skiing backwards go off a jump doing flips and turns in the air.  I humbly admitted I often do stuff like that (and more).  He gasped and said that I must be a really good skier.  I told him I do not like to brag but I am a very good skier - However, I added - I could be a much better skier -- if I was doing all those things on purpose. 
Unlike the rich young man - I dred finding out what I lack yet (I am impressed at this point that he or anyone else would even have the guts ask) -- I certainly do not want to even ask any such thing.  I more into the working on "enduring to the end" kind of thing.
 
The Traveler

Though I happen to agree with the idea of prohibiting excessive interest, what today is called "usury" (though as you note, that's not historically accurate), I consider both Occasionally Coherent and InSane-ders to be opportunistic liars and intellectual lightweights. I would hesitate to believe them if they told me at noon that the sun was shining, unless I could double-check them.
Did anyone else check out Bernie's web site during the 2016 election cycle, where he bragged that he gave actual numbers to support his socialistic plans? It was absolutely unbefrickinlievable. I saw literally nothing—not a single word in print—about it, so I assume he made that site for me and me alone. To establish his tax plans for his socialistic paradise, he linked to research WHERE THE AUTHORS OPENLY CONCEDED IN THEIR OPENING PARAGRAPH THAT THEIR WORK WAS SPECULATIVE AND NOT TO BE ACCEPTED AT FACE VALUE. I am not joking. All you had to do was to follow the link. After spending 30 minutes with the web archive site, I can't find the example I had in mind, so you'll have to take (or reject) my word for it.
In any case, the point is I would not trust either of those politicians to give me the correct time.

Scientifically human life appears to be extremely rare in our universe and may only exist on this planet.  From the strict stance of intelligence; such a rare commodity (human life) should be preserved, protected and encouraged (valued) above anything so rare and held valuable in the universe.  How can we claim human life (including our own) is of value if we do not value it!  - especially in its most innocent and vulnerable stage. 
 
The Traveler

True!  but we do recognize that killing another human is not necessarily always murder.   There are times when killing is justified or mitigated as accidental or unintended.  But I would add another thought here - while serving on a mission I was made aware that a person convicted in court of murder cannot be baptized.  To be honest I do not know if this is still or always the case.  But I am aware that a individual involved in an abortion can repent and be baptized.
And for the record - I will support the authority of revelation and will believe that any repentant person is a candidate through the plan of Salvation of Celestial Glory to be absolved and forgiven. 
 
The Traveler

I agree with these three, but would add a fourth: 4) ability to serve as a good role model of manhood in all important senses.

Growing up I was introduced (became aware) of homosexuality - first in the boy scouts and then again in the military.  There is a reason that boys are targeted in scouting.  For many boys it is their first experience away from home and family and there is an emotional vulnerability.  A side note here - this is also why "sleepovers" are where many youth are introduced to masturbation and homosexuality - that I believe are related.  As to the military - young men (and I assume women) are very lonely and vulnerable.  
It was not a surprise to me that the homosexual community has specifically targeted the boy scouts and the military.  It is both critical and fertile ground to establish relationships that will assist in convincing youth that they "fit" in.  Which, BTW, is the third critical psychological NEED of all humans. 
 
The Traveler

You are talking about courts... which as you so clearly point out are all over the place... I am talking about the Legislative (aka Congress) the reasons the courts are all over the place is because the Legislative been phoning it in.  Last I checked (barring Judaical activism) the court system likes having clarity of meaning and intent from the Legislative 

The only reason laws like this exist (and their opposites) is because we have not legally answered the question of "When does a fetus become Human?"   That of course is a question that has a lot of morality to it, but once answered all the other laws directly targeting abortion become moot. 
If the fetus is Human then it has Human rights, and we have laws already about when one human can harm and/or kill another.
If it is not Human then it is the property (and body) of its mother and she can do what she wills with it.
I know that I am on the side of calling it Human with all the rights and protections that come with that.