Second chance at repentance?

[Justice]

If she/he knew they were sinning, had the knowledge of the fullness of the Gospel, was baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, repented after death; does that still give her/him access to the celestial kingdom?

I think it depends on their heart.

When they left this earth were they in a repentant state?

If not, there is no reason to think they will change to a repentant state after they are resurrected (Alma 41).

If they weren't, then that answers itself.

[Moksha]

It is not GOD who really brings about this meted punishment of 'fire and brimstone' but we do it to ourselves.

So if one continually thinks 'fire and brimstone" in a schadenfreude kind of way, God will reward that individual with their own 'fire and brimstone' environment?

Much more pleasant to think of good things in that case!

:)

[Hemidakota]

Another question.

Setting aside the question of mercy entirely, would it truly be just to punish a person forever for a finite sin (or group of sins) she committed during her mortal life? Think of it: finite sin, infinite punishment. Doesn't sound just to me, and I find it hard to believe that God would do that.

HEP

If left unrepentant, justice will be serve. This is not just GOD's intent for this child but required to enforce the law that was handed down.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Hemidakota

[pam]

Here is a quote that I found that pretty much sums up what my thoughts have been on this subject all along.

Mortality is the time of probation. All are expected to endure to the end. No ordinance or experience excuses one from the responsibility to live righteously and to render full obedience to the laws of God. Those having so kept this probationary estate are promised that they “shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever” (Abraham 3:26). For those with a knowledge of the gospel, probation ends at death. For those who have not had the opportunity to hear the gospel in mortality the days of probation continue into the world of spirits.

Joseph Fielding McConkie and Robert L. Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, 4 vols., 1, p.202

[Moksha]

I always envision a loving God. I don't think he will be harsh, frankly, I think we will understand and feel quite loved by his decision......after all we are the ones that REALLY determine where we will spend eternity.

Absolutely right Bytor. God understands implicitly the imperfect nature of Man. If we approach our misdoings with a contrite heart, our loving God's Grace is inexhaustible.

[DAL]

D&C 76 says if we reject the gospel in this life, and accept it in the spirit world, we do not obtain the celestial, but the terrestrial kingdom.   I would be warn of using the term 2nd chance in this case because, although we may have a 2nd chance to accept the gospel in the next life, the reward may not be the same.  Also another warning is that we cannot be the judge of when, or if someone has received fully, or rejected fully the gospel.  We have to leave that kind of judgement to the lord as far as determining final judgement.

[zil2]

Welcome to Third Hour, @DAL!  I look forward to hearing more from you.

[Traveler]

11 hours ago, DAL said:

D&C 76 says if we reject the gospel in this life, and accept it in the spirit world, we do not obtain the celestial, but the terrestrial kingdom.   I would be warn of using the term 2nd chance in this case because, although we may have a 2nd chance to accept the gospel in the next life, the reward may not be the same.  Also another warning is that we cannot be the judge of when, or if someone has received fully, or rejected fully the gospel.  We have to leave that kind of judgement to the lord as far as determining final judgement.

Welcome to the forum - I hope to hear more form you:

Since you have posted, I hope you did so expecting to engage in meaningful discussions.   I am of the mind that according to the principles of agency and free will; making judgements is a critical skill required of all those that covenant with G-d.  However, I see two very important parts of making righteous judgements that the saints of G-d need to be aware.  The first is that when we employ judgements concerning others that we employ love and compassion and avoid condemning them (in essence not believing that they can or will repent).

The second element of judgements are that concerning spiritual and gospel judgements we are to use such understanding for ourselves to self-evaluate our spiritual progress during our mortal probation.  For example – we have the commandment (associated with our Sabbath covenant) to Keep the Sabbath Day Holy.  Part of my personal covenant is to attend Sunday worship services under the direction of the Melchizedek priesthood.    There can be exceptions – for example, if one is visiting Israel the LDS Sabbath worship services are held on Saturday.  I also realize that my covenants do not apply to others and that I should not expect them to.

I believe the reason we are told of qualification to obtain the various glories withing the Kingdom of G-d when we are resurrected – is so we can know what we ought to do (ourselves) to qualify our thoughts and action within the circumstances and challenges we face.   Since we do not know what other intend to obtain by their agency – it is not our right to impose our agency upon others.  It is the imposition of one's agency upon others that caused Lucifer to sin and become Satan the father of lies.  Not for us to condemn him but rather that we can apply such knowledge to exercise our agency for what we will become.

 

The Traveler

[Jersey Boy]

On 11/20/2023 at 1:02 AM, DAL said:

 

D&C 76 says if we reject the gospel in this life, and accept it in the spirit world, we do not obtain the celestial, but the terrestrial kingdom.   I would be warn of using the term 2nd chance in this case because, although we may have a 2nd chance to accept the gospel in the next life, the reward may not be the same.  Also another warning is that we cannot be the judge of when, or if someone has received fully, or rejected fully the gospel.  We have to leave that kind of judgement to the lord as far as determining final judgement>

Why do those desperately wicked and rebellious souls, like Alma the Younger, who at first reject the gospel message but later receive it while still in the flesh, have a pathway open to obtain the celestial kingdom, while the not so not desperately wicked, who receive the gospel after death, can only hope to obtain a terrestrial glory? What’s so magical about death that a balanced application of mercy and justice no longer seems to apply after one’s mortal body is laid down the grave? If Alma had died during his exquisite spiritual suffering, before thinking to cry out to the Savior for mercy, would he have only been able to obtain a terrestrial glory as well? If so, why? It seems terribly unfair that an untimely and/or accidental death, something that one often has no control over, could mightily change one’s spiritual destiny forever. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Jersey Boy

[laronius]

20 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

Why do those desperately wicked and rebellious souls, like Alma the Younger, who at first reject the gospel message but later receive it while still in the flesh, have a pathway open to obtain the celestial kingdom, while the not so not desperately wicked, who receive the gospel after death, can only hope to obtain a terrestrial glory? What’s so magical about death that a balanced application of mercy and justice no longer seems to apply after one’s mortal body is laid down the grave? If Alma had died during his exquisite spiritual suffering, before thinking to cry out to the Savior for mercy, would he have only been able to obtain a terrestrial glory as well? If so, why? It seems terribly unfair that an untimely and/or accidental death, something that one often has no control over, could mightily change one’s spiritual destiny forever. 

I have thought about this very thing so I offer a couple thoughts I've had. First of all, it may very well be tied to the principle of faith. In the next life that veil we currently have over our eyes is removed and as a result much of the faith we must act under here is removed. I think that may be a factor.

But I think a bigger factor simply comes down to the amount of law we want to submit to. It's not just about where we want to end up but also which laws we want to obey. Most everyone would say they'd like to be rich. But how many are actually willing to do what it usually takes to become so? It's the same here. I don't think anyone will be barred from the celestial kingdom that is willing to live a celestial law. And as a rule how a person lives in this life, with whatever amount of truth they possess, will be a pretty good indicator of what people really want. But I also think that there are those who take a little longer to figure things out, like Alma the younger and the Lord makes sure that all such individuals will have that opportunity. God WANTS to save everyone to the fullest extent they are willing to receive and will provide sufficient opportunity to each individual according to His perfect knowledge of us. That is something we can have complete faith in.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, laronius said:

I have thought about this very thing so I offer a couple thoughts I've had. First of all, it may very well be tied to the principle of faith. In the next life that veil we currently have over our eyes is removed and as a result much of the faith we must act under here is removed. I think that may be a factor.

But I think a bigger factor simply comes down to the amount of law we want to submit to. It's not just about where we want to end up but also which laws we want to obey. Most everyone would say they'd like to be rich. But how many are actually willing to do what it usually takes to become so? It's the same here. I don't think anyone will be barred from the celestial kingdom that is willing to live a celestial law. And as a rule how a person lives in this life, with whatever amount of truth they possess, will be a pretty good indicator of what people really want. But I also think that there are those who take a little longer to figure things out, like Alma the younger and the Lord makes sure that all such individuals will have that opportunity. God WANTS to save everyone to the fullest extent they are willing to receive and will provide sufficient opportunity to each individual according to His perfect knowledge of us. That is something we can have complete faith in.

I really like your concept of faith.  I will not pretend to understand faith anymore than anyone else, my life’s work was as an engineer and scientist and see much through that filter.  I have some difficulty just decerning the difference between faith, belief and knowledge.  During my lifetime I have seen the scientific understanding of things change greatly.  I remember learning about neutrinos in my quantum physics courses in college.  Back then no one seemed to understand or think that neutrinos had much to do with anything of consequence in the universe.  Now, it is believed that neutrinos are the key component that drives everything that exists in the creation and forming of the universe as we currently think we know it.

In religion we learn a little bit about the levels of glory within the kingdom of G-d and with that little understanding we may think we know, individual by individual who is worthy of what level of glory.  I think what we start to do is compare ourselves to what we think we know of others.  Generally, we are likely to think we will be in the highest Celestial glory.  Then we compare ourselves to others or others to ourselves thinking we have a decent idea if they will make it or not.

I believe it is not for us to decide what degree of glory anyone other than ourselves are achieving.   Not those we think righteous as well as those we think wicked.  The only person we really know that much about is ourselves.  The real and only question for us to understand is if we are willing to exercise our faith to achieve Celestial Glory.  President Nelsen has admonished us to “Think Celestial”.  Jesus said as we think so are we and so shall we become.  I am beginning to think that like neutrinos that are so unaffected by anything else and have such difficulty interacting with anything we may start out thinking we are worthless.  But then, as we begin to understand where we came from and where we can go and what we can do – we can have faith in what we (and everyone else) can impact and become.

 

The Traveler

[Jersey Boy]

1 hour ago, laronius said:

I have thought about this very thing so I offer a couple thoughts I've had. First of all, it may very well be tied to the principle of faith. In the next life that veil we currently have over our eyes is removed and as a result much of the faith we must act under here is removed. I think that may be a factor.

But I think a bigger factor simply comes down to the amount of law we want to submit to. It's not just about where we want to end up but also which laws we want to obey. Most everyone would say they'd like to be rich. But how many are actually willing to do what it usually takes to become so? It's the same here. I don't think anyone will be barred from the celestial kingdom that is willing to live a celestial law. And as a rule how a person lives in this life, with whatever amount of truth they possess, will be a pretty good indicator of what people really want. But I also think that there are those who take a little longer to figure things out, like Alma the younger and the Lord makes sure that all such individuals will have that opportunity. God WANTS to save everyone to the fullest extent they are willing to receive and will provide sufficient opportunity to each individual according to His perfect knowledge of us. That is something we can have complete faith in.

I’ll respond to the thoughts in your second paragraph later, as I have something I presently need to do. But I’ll take a moment to say that if one of the reasons why it’s not possible for those who take advantage of their “second chance,” by embracing the gospel in the spirit world, to eventually obtain the celestial kingdom is because less faith is required there to know the gospel is true, then we’re right back where we started! How could it be considered fair and just if someone who rejected the gospel in the flesh at age 25, but then is shortly thereafter killed by a drunk driver, to be placed in a state of existence that will necessarily preclude him from obtaining the fullness of salvation? Meanwhile, if the same man had lived to the ripe age of 85 he would have had a much better chance to accept the gospel before death and strive with his might to obtain eternal life. If God truly is fair and just, it appears patently unreasonable that someone would be deprived of his opportunity to strive toward exaltation due to unfortunate circumstances that were not his fault.

[zil2]

48 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

How could it be considered fair and just if someone who rejected the gospel in the flesh at age 25, but then is shortly thereafter killed by a drunk driver, to be placed in a state of existence that will necessarily preclude him from obtaining the fullness of salvation? Meanwhile, if the same man had lived to the ripe age of 85 he would have had a much better chance to accept the gospel before death and strive with his might to obtain eternal life. If God truly is fair and just, it appears patently unreasonable that someone would be deprived of his opportunity to strive toward exaltation due to unfortunate circumstances that were not his fault.

This is where faith in Jesus Christ is required.  One can have faith in any number of things, and some might be true, but it is only faith in Jesus Christ that can allow us to look at situations as you describe and trust that the outcome for this person (and every person) will be as good as it can possibly be; that no one is denied any blessing they desire (and are willing to abide the corresponding laws) just because of accident, ignorance, or illness.  God (the Godhead) knows (know) all and there are plenty of scriptures to suggest that those who would accept, if given the chance, will not be denied any opportunity or blessing.

Edited November 24, 2023 by zil2

[Traveler]

Greetings @Jersey Boyand @zil2

I do not intend to hijack your discussion but rather perhaps join in a little.  I think the concerns and thoughts about fair and just as expressed by @Jersey Boy are valid points.  As I have contemplated myself what happens between birth and death, and I am convinced that this is not sufficient to determine anything related to justice, fairness nor agency.  I have concluded that something must exist before birth as well as after death to mitigate justice, fairness and agency.

We are told that we will maintain the same spirit (attitude?) after we die that we pursued in life.  I am not sure I understand what that means – though I have some ideas.  In essence we retain our identity of who we are.

As to having faith in Jesus Christ as suggested by @zil2.  I see such faith as entirely too ambiguous.  How can we have the necessary faith in Christ if we have incorrect ideas of his nature and purpose (among other things)?  I had several public debates with an individual (Chris Allen - ) on the subject, “Does G-d exist”.  I conceded the debate when I was able to realize his concept, understanding and definition of G-d.  I conceded because I did not believe that such a being existed or could possibly exist.  Since he did not understand my concept of G-d – I could not see any reason to continue.

In short I do not believe that having faith in the mis concepts of Jesus Christ is any more beneficial than not having faith at all – thus the reason for learning the truth of Christ in the spirit world so we can have valid faith in him and his atonement.  Thus, it is my understanding that there is not a second chance as it is a valid and true chance.

 

The Traveler

Edited November 24, 2023 by Traveler

[LDSGator]

23 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

If God truly is fair and just, it appears patently unreasonable that someone would be deprived of his opportunity to strive toward exaltation due to unfortunate circumstances that were not his fault.

You aren’t alone my friend. A lot of us struggle with things like this. 

[Jersey Boy]

On 11/24/2023 at 10:27 AM, laronius said:

I have thought about this very thing so I offer a couple thoughts I've had. First of all, it may very well be tied to the principle of faith. In the next life that veil we currently have over our eyes is removed and as a result much of the faith we must act under here is removed. I think that may be a factor.

But I think a bigger factor simply comes down to the amount of law we want to submit to. It's not just about where we want to end up but also which laws we want to obey. Most everyone would say they'd like to be rich. But how many are actually willing to do what it usually takes to become so? It's the same here. I don't think anyone will be barred from the celestial kingdom that is willing to live a celestial law. And as a rule how a person lives in this life, with whatever amount of truth they possess, will be a pretty good indicator of what people really want. But I also think that there are those who take a little longer to figure things out, like Alma the younger and the Lord makes sure that all such individuals will have that opportunity. God WANTS to save everyone to the fullest extent they are willing to receive and will provide sufficient opportunity to each individual according to His perfect knowledge of us. That is something we can have complete faith in.

I largely agree with the second paragraph. The only problem is that in order for the fair-minded concepts of the second paragraph to be fulfilled there can be no room for accidental and/or untimely deaths that prematurely thrust those who haven’t been given enough time to believe and repent into a state of existence where they will automatically be barred from entry into the celestial kingdom because, as you said, the spirit world requires less faith to believe.

[laronius]

16 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

I largely agree with the second paragraph. The only problem is that in order for the fair-minded concepts of the second paragraph to be fulfilled there can be no room for accidental and/or untimely deaths that prematurely thrust those who haven’t been given enough time to believe and repent into a state of existence where they will automatically be barred from entry into the celestial kingdom because, as you said, the spirit world requires less faith to believe.

While there is much riding on this mortal existence we did not come into this world with a blank slate. Blank from sin, yes, but not blank in who we are. Who we are has been molded over the course of, perhaps, eons before we came here. Our Heavenly Father, who is omniscient, knows us better than we know ourselves and he already knew, before we were born, what we needed to experience in order to maximize our individual willingness to change and progress. Whether long or short this life is sufficient to bring about the Lord's purposes in our eternal advancement.

You keep referring to the principle of fairness and seem to define it as an equal amount of time in mortality. But conditions vary so much on earth in time period, location and family circumstances that I don't know how we could use length of life as a measure of fairness. For example, which is more fair, living to be 15 in an LDS family in modern Utah or to be 100 in ancient Sodom? 

I have had thoughts that are similar to yours, such as how can the guy I know get killed by an IED in Afghanistan one month after his first child is born? How is it possible that his time on earth was considered sufficient while others live to an old age? Yes, he had accepted the gospel but there is so much to learn still. But at the end of the day God does not fill us in on those details. Rather, he says "I love my children and based on my omniscience and the great mercy made available through the atonement of my Son I will do all within my power to save them to the fullest extent possible" and that's just something we have to exercise our faith in. I think we all will feel that the final outcome for each of us will be far more than fair. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by laronius

[JohnsonJones]

On 11/25/2023 at 1:44 PM, Jersey Boy said:

I largely agree with the second paragraph. The only problem is that in order for the fair-minded concepts of the second paragraph to be fulfilled there can be no room for accidental and/or untimely deaths that prematurely thrust those who haven’t been given enough time to believe and repent into a state of existence where they will automatically be barred from entry into the celestial kingdom because, as you said, the spirit world requires less faith to believe.

For us what may seem accidental or untimely are not so with the Lord.  I feel he knows how and when we each will pass, even if we do not know ourselves.

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

For us what may seem accidental or untimely are not so with the Lord.  I feel he knows how and when we each will pass, even if we do not know ourselves.

Season’s Greetings @JohnsonJones :

I have posted previously about my understanding of “Agency”, freewill and justice.  As I understand “Agency” we are the singular determent of our eternal destiny.   Nothing is forced upon us without our exercise of agency (my understanding).  This would mean that everything happens to un in mortality is something to which we individually agreed to and planned for in the pre-existence.   Because of our agency – I do not believe that we can blame G-d for anything.  Because of our agency – I do not believe we are living out G-d’s plan for our destiny.  Rather I believe that we are living out our own plan (allowed, gifted and supported by G-d) for our destiny – remember that we exercised our agency to participate in the Divine Plan of Salvation. 

We have the ability to make eternal reality out of our agency – the Divine Plan of Salvation is specifically designed to fulfill what we are determined to accomplish.  What happens to us in this mortal existence is not random, unfair, unjust or beyond what we are capable of dealing with.  (See 1Nephi 3:7)  Also that the fulfillment of our agency is not sufficient in this life only but is completed after we die  (See Alma 40:6)

 

The Traveler