Physical contact in the spirit world

[Traveler]

It is possible for a man to be completely blind to the spirit, to have no spiritual influence at all and there are spirits that exist that have no physical body. As soon as you say "man", yes man is a dual being by definition. But the amount of integration between the two parts vary from individual to individual. We currently live according to the flesh with minor glimpses of spiritual input from time to time. The spirit is quiet and hard to hear. It is only when we put off the natural man (the body part) can we really hear the spirit. The perfect union will be upon resurrection, not in this current state. We are not fully integrated. On fast Sunday, my body is not fully integrated with my spirits desire to fast, it wants to eat. The apostle's bodies were not fully integrated with their spirits that didn't want to sleep.

I believe that when Christ spoke of being whole that he was speaking of being an integrated entity of both the body and spirit. In addition I believe that Matthew 5:48 indicates that resurrection is not necessary.

As I understand we become whole or integrated through sacrifice and discipline. Since these seem to require a dominate spirit we may think of sacrifice and discipline as spiritual but in truth the process is integrated and requires that the body be disciplined as well as the spirit.

If we observe the ordinances of salvation we will discover that both the body and the spirit must be integrated or the ordinance is invalid. This is why both physical and spiritual baptism is required - if only by proxy.

We know that a mortal body can be integrated with our spirit through discipline and achieve even what we can call perfection - Jesus is the example. If not then the scriptures lie in telling us Jesus was tempted but resisted, thereby showing that resurrection is not necessary to integrate the spirit and body in common cause in order that there was an atonement.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe that when Christ spoke of being whole that he was speaking of being an integrated entity of both the body and spirit. In addition I believe that Matthew 5:48 indicates that resurrection is not necessary.

As I understand we become whole or integrated through sacrifice and discipline. Since these seem to require a dominate spirit we may think of sacrifice and discipline as spiritual but in truth the process is integrated and requires that the body be disciplined as well as the spirit.

If we observe the ordinances of salvation we will discover that both the body and the spirit must be integrated or the ordinance is invalid. This is why both physical and spiritual baptism is required - if only by proxy.

We know that a mortal body can be integrated with our spirit through discipline and achieve even what we can call perfection - Jesus is the example. If not then the scriptures lie in telling us Jesus was tempted but resisted, thereby showing that resurrection is not necessary to integrate the spirit and body in common cause in order that there was an atonement.

The Traveler

I agree with all of that. I don't think anything I've said is contrary to that.

In fact, I will take it a step further .... the more our body becomes like Christ's body the more our spirit becomes integrated with it. This is why we take on His flesh and blood in the Sacrament. And when we sanctify ourselves we can have His image in our countenance. And there are higher ordinances in the Temple that relate to the transformation of our bodies.

I like how Elder Bednar put it in his April conference talk "We Believe in Being Chaste"; "As sons and daughters of God, we have inherited divine capacities from Him. But we presently live in a fallen world. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. Consequently, the Fall of Adam and its spiritual and temporal consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies. And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).

The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test. "

[Magen_Avot]

I kinda get lost in some of these discussions, but a thought came and I wonder if the experience of being "touched" by a spirit is a "spirit to spirit thing" or experienced through the connection of our spirit and body.

Just thinking out loud.

[Traveler]

I kinda get lost in some of these discussions, but a thought came and I wonder if the experience of being "touched" by a spirit is a "spirit to spirit thing" or experienced through the connection of our spirit and body.

Just thinking out loud.

I think you are on to something with which I agree. That is that our mortal physical bodies allow our spirits to have connections and experiences (in other words to learn spiritual things previously unknown and inexperienced) that otherwise could not be possible. This, I believe is referenced in scriptures as an awakening.

Thanks for your input and if I have not understood you - feel free to correct me.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I agree with all of that. I don't think anything I've said is contrary to that.

In fact, I will take it a step further .... the more our body becomes like Christ's body the more our spirit becomes integrated with it. This is why we take on His flesh and blood in the Sacrament. And when we sanctify ourselves we can have His image in our countenance. And there are higher ordinances in the Temple that relate to the transformation of our bodies.

I like how Elder Bednar put it in his April conference talk "We Believe in Being Chaste"; "As sons and daughters of God, we have inherited divine capacities from Him. But we presently live in a fallen world. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. Consequently, the Fall of Adam and its spiritual and temporal consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies. And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).

The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test. "

Agree - discipline is the integrated means by which we overcome the natural man - the point being that both the spirit and the elements are necessary to put off the natural man - that spirit cannot do so by its self. (Because spirit by itself is not enticed by the that is physical)

However, there is one other very important point - the natural man is not the only means that one can become an enemy of G-d - and Lucifer, a spiritual being demonstrates how it is that spirit itself can reject the Holy Spirit without any physical or what we call "natural" enticements.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I kinda get lost in some of these discussions, but a thought came and I wonder if the experience of being "touched" by a spirit is a "spirit to spirit thing" or experienced through the connection of our spirit and body.

Just thinking out loud.

I assume you are referring to being "touched" by the spirit like Alma's example of a seed planted in the heart, a faith promoting experience. If that is the case then it is Spirit to spirit.

Elder Christofferson; "The word of God, as Alma said, is like a seed planted in our hearts that produces faith as it begins to grow within us (see Alma 32:27–43; see also Romans 10:13–17). Faith will not come from the study of ancient texts as a purely academic pursuit. It will not come from archaeological digs and discoveries. It will not come from scientific experiments. It will not even come from witnessing miracles. These things may serve to confirm faith, or at times to challenge it, but they do not create faith. Faith comes by the witness of the Holy Spirit to our souls, Spirit to spirit, as we hear or read the word of God. And faith matures as we continue to feast upon the word."

(Note the use of the capitalized S in Spirit)

[Canada Goose]

I am fascinated by this topic ever since I had a NDE about 25 years ago.  It was not a “spectacular” experience but it was one that gave an insight or a glimmer of what happens at the moment of death.  I’ve had depression for 4 decades and as such do not feel the spirit easily.  What I first felt was an incredible feeling of unconditional love. I knew without a doubt that I was loved beyond anything I had ever felt in mortality.  This feeling was two things, firstly it was communication to my mind and soul directly and secondly and more dramatically I was engulfed in love to where I swore that a warm heated blanket was wrapped around me and I understood that was a physical manifestation of love.  My mind and my body were both surrounded in love, something I had never felt before or since.  
 

Because of my experience I am not afraid to die and at the very moment of death it is sweet and I did not suffer physically.  Since that time I find I can feel the spirit through beautiful music to the point I weep.  

[laronius]

1 hour ago, Canada Goose said:

I am fascinated by this topic ever since I had a NDE about 25 years ago.  It was not a “spectacular” experience but it was one that gave an insight or a glimmer of what happens at the moment of death.  I’ve had depression for 4 decades and as such do not feel the spirit easily.  What I first felt was an incredible feeling of unconditional love. I knew without a doubt that I was loved beyond anything I had ever felt in mortality.  This feeling was two things, firstly it was communication to my mind and soul directly and secondly and more dramatically I was engulfed in love to where I swore that a warm heated blanket was wrapped around me and I understood that was a physical manifestation of love.  My mind and my body were both surrounded in love, something I had never felt before or since.  
 

Because of my experience I am not afraid to die and at the very moment of death it is sweet and I did not suffer physically.  Since that time I find I can feel the spirit through beautiful music to the point I weep.  

That may not have been visually spectacular but I would call what you felt spectacular and more importantly the kind of experience you needed. 

My dad once related an experience (not NDE) that also allowed him a glimpse of the other side by way of what he felt which was a combination of love and incredible homesickness that brought him to tears and lasted a few days. Sight is only one of our senses and not always the most important.

[zil2]

Welcome to ThirdHour, @Canada Goose!

[askandanswer]

I haven't read the whole thread. These verses give reason to believe that spirits can touch physical objects

6 And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones one by one with his finger. And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.

7 And the Lord saw that the brother of Jared had fallen to the earth; and the Lord said unto him: Arise, why hast thou fallen?

8 And he saith unto the Lord: I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me; for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.

9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

10 And he answered: Nay; Lord, show thyself unto me.

11 And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?

12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

[mikbone]

40 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

Excerpt from Jeffrey R. Holland, “Rending the Veil of Unbelief,” in The Voice of My Servants: Apostolic Messages on Teaching, Learning, and Scripture, ed. Scott C. Esplin and Richard Neitzel Holzapfel (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University; Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2010), 143–64.

https://rsc.byu.edu/voice-my-servants/rending-veil-unbelief

 

Yet another interpretation of this passage is that the faith of the brother of Jared was so great he saw not only the spirit finger and body of the premortal Jesus (which presumably many other prophets had also seen) but also had some distinctly more revealing aspect of Christ’s body of flesh, blood, and bone. Exactly what insight into the flesh-and-blood nature of Christ’s future body the brother of Jared might have had is not clear, but Jehovah does say to him, “Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood” (Ether 3:9), and Moroni does say that Christ revealed Himself in this instance “in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites” (Ether 3:17). Some have taken that to mean literally “the same body” the Nephites would see—a body of flesh and blood. A safer position would be that it was at least the exact spiritual likeness of that future body. Jehovah says, “Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit . . .and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh” (Ether 3:16), and Moroni says, “Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit” (Ether 3:17).

[laronius]

On 11/23/2024 at 4:20 AM, mikbone said:

Excerpt from Jeffrey R. Holland, “Rending the Veil of Unbelief,” in The Voice of My Servants: Apostolic Messages on Teaching, Learning, and Scripture, ed. Scott C. Esplin and Richard Neitzel Holzapfel (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University; Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2010), 143–64.

https://rsc.byu.edu/voice-my-servants/rending-veil-unbelief

 

Yet another interpretation of this passage is that the faith of the brother of Jared was so great he saw not only the spirit finger and body of the premortal Jesus (which presumably many other prophets had also seen) but also had some distinctly more revealing aspect of Christ’s body of flesh, blood, and bone. Exactly what insight into the flesh-and-blood nature of Christ’s future body the brother of Jared might have had is not clear, but Jehovah does say to him, “Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood” (Ether 3:9), and Moroni does say that Christ revealed Himself in this instance “in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites” (Ether 3:17). Some have taken that to mean literally “the same body” the Nephites would see—a body of flesh and blood. A safer position would be that it was at least the exact spiritual likeness of that future body. Jehovah says, “Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit . . .and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh” (Ether 3:16), and Moroni says, “Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit” (Ether 3:17).

We know that God can see past, present, and future. Do you think He can also interact with the past and future? Or more specifically, could the already resurrected Lord have shown himself to the Brother of Jared?

[mikbone]

6 minutes ago, laronius said:

We know that God can see past, present, and future. Do you think He can also interact with the past and future? Or more specifically, could the already resurrected Lord have shown himself to the Brother of Jared?

Good question.

[Vort]

23 minutes ago, laronius said:

We know that God can see past, present, and future. Do you think He can also interact with the past and future? Or more specifically, could the already resurrected Lord have shown himself to the Brother of Jared?

No. The scriptures seem pretty clear that the sci-fi idea of encountering oneself in the past or future is nonsense. When the Spirit of the Lord spoke with Nephi (Nephi 11), at one point He showed Nephi Jerusalem and the birth of the Savior. Upon opening this part of the vision, the Spirit of the Lord departed from Nephi, and an angel from heaven came down to continue the narration of the Savior's birth. Even here, the Spirit of the Lord did not say, "Behold Me as I shall be in six hundred years!" He instead had an angel take that role.

[CV75]

26 minutes ago, laronius said:

We know that God can see past, present, and future. Do you think He can also interact with the past and future? Or more specifically, could the already resurrected Lord have shown himself to the Brother of Jared?

I think the faith (in Christ) of the brother of Jared was so great that he saw the spirit finger of the Lord, touching the stones, as flesh and blood. He saw the future reality in the present, How this works is beyond me, but he did it. After that, the Lord showed him his spirit body and all the rest as recorded.

The greater the faith, the greater the knowledge, and the two build upon each other in a dynamo (I would say they are two forms of the same thing). Thus became the faith of the brother of Jared, sufficient to see the future finger of the Lord.

It could be said he only thought he saw flesh and blood, or misinterpreted the reality of a spirit finger as one of flesh and blood, but the Lord did not correct him. 

So yes, while God can interact with the past and future, in this case it was the brother of Jared interacting with the future. He was not interacting in a future event where the physically embodied Lord touched stones, but he was interacting with the future reality of the Lord's embodied spirit.

[CV75]

8 minutes ago, Vort said:

No. The scriptures seem pretty clear that the sci-fi idea of encountering oneself in the past or future is nonsense. When the Spirit of the Lord spoke with Nephi (Nephi 11), at one point He showed Nephi Jerusalem and the birth of the Savior. Upon opening this part of the vision, the Spirit of the Lord departed from Nephi, and an angel from heaven came down to continue the narration of the Savior's birth. Even here, the Spirit of the Lord did not say, "Behold Me as I shall be in six hundred years!" He instead had an angel take that role.

Visions like these, I believe as with the brother of Jared interacting with a future reality if not a future event, are enabled by the ability to foresee them. The Lord can foresee them (both events and conditions) and share that as seems Him good, or as in the exceedingly rare event of the brother of Jared, exceeding great faith can generate the ability to foresee a future condition manifest within a current event.

[laronius]

4 hours ago, Vort said:

No. The scriptures seem pretty clear that the sci-fi idea of encountering oneself in the past or future is nonsense. When the Spirit of the Lord spoke with Nephi (Nephi 11), at one point He showed Nephi Jerusalem and the birth of the Savior. Upon opening this part of the vision, the Spirit of the Lord departed from Nephi, and an angel from heaven came down to continue the narration of the Savior's birth. Even here, the Spirit of the Lord did not say, "Behold Me as I shall be in six hundred years!" He instead had an angel take that role.

This wouldn't be someone seeing them self. Using your example, Nephi saw the future Messiah. Could that future Messiah have interacted with Nephi?

[mikbone]

I think that the Brother of Jared saw Jehovah clothed in a body of Flesh and Bone.  The passage essentially states this.

The Brother of Jared mis-assumed that it was a Body of Flesh and Blood which allowed for a wonderful revelation and understanding.

The real question is where did this body of flesh and bone come from?

I can think of many scenarios that would satisfy.

Edited November 25, 2024 by mikbone

[Just_A_Guy]

6 hours ago, Vort said:

No. The scriptures seem pretty clear that the sci-fi idea of encountering oneself in the past or future is nonsense. When the Spirit of the Lord spoke with Nephi (Nephi 11), at one point He showed Nephi Jerusalem and the birth of the Savior. Upon opening this part of the vision, the Spirit of the Lord departed from Nephi, and an angel from heaven came down to continue the narration of the Savior's birth. Even here, the Spirit of the Lord did not say, "Behold Me as I shall be in six hundred years!" He instead had an angel take that role.

I’m not sure I follow you here.  You’re saying that Christ can, while physically present, show someone a vision or “scene” of the future; except that He can’t show a particular scene from the future if Christ Himself is in that scene?  (IE, to use a crass example:  Dumbledore can show Harry scenes in penseive, except that the process doesn’t work if Dumbledore himself was in the scene that he wants to show Harry?)  I’m not sure the scriptures rule that out.  (I suppose I can’t think of a precedent for it happening, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s impossible).

I’ve been watching, over the past week or so, a debate play out amongst LDS members about whether God exists “outside of time”.  I do agree that God experiences time (He has, from His own perspective, a past and present and future).  But I suspect that He experiences it in a vastly different way than we do—on a different “linear plane”, if you will, where many of the conundrums and paradoxes about time travel that we humans conjure up don’t apply as we think they might.  Phrases like “one eternal round”, “one eternal now”, and the Lord’s manifestation and words to the Brother of Jared may be Christ attempting to “dumb down” those principles to something approaching what our puny minds can begin to comprehend; and the scenario @laronius posits of BoJ interacting with [from his own perspective] “future Christ”, intrigues me.

Edited November 25, 2024 by Just_A_Guy

[Vort]

36 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I’m not sure I follow you here.  You’re saying that Christ can, while physically present, show someone a vision or “scene” of the future; except that He can’t show a particular scene from the future if Christ Himself is in that scene?  (IE, to use a crass example:  Dumbledore can show Harry scenes in penseive, except that the process doesn’t work if Dumbledore himself was in the scene that he wants to show Harry?)  I’m not sure the scriptures rule that out.  (I suppose I can’t think of a precedent for it happening, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s impossible).

I mean that God is fully localizable in time and space, and the vision He showed to Nephi was not just a filmed recreation (or precreation) of the scene. God deals in truth, not in mere portrayals of truth. And as we know, truth is a knowledge of things as they really are, as they really were, and as they really will be.

Nephi was seeing a vision of what would actually come to pass—the real thing, not just a simulation of it. How does this work? I have no idea. Like you, I believe that God experiences time; I suspect the whole idea that God may exist "outside of time" is nothing more than a pagan and/or apostate conception of reality. Yet He has access to past, present, and future, all before His gaze. Again, I do not pretend to understand what this means; at the risk of sounding like a Roman Catholic proclaiming something to be a "mystery", I suspect that we in our mortal state are not in a position to understand it.

Anyway, if Nephi was actually seeing The Real Thing, which I believe he was, then Jesus Christ was there present in the form of a newborn. It would be impossible for the Lord to be there at that moment in any other way.

But of course, these are just words, spoken (written) by someone who is as ignorant as anyone else in this world. I'm claiming that I believe my words to have actual solid meaning, but I openly admit that I might well be wrong. I wonder if those who insist on the God-outside-of-time idea are as candidly honest.

36 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I’ve been watching, over the past week or so, a debate play out amongst LDS members about whether God exists “outside of time”.  I do agree that God experiences time (He has, from His own perspective, a past and present and future).  But I suspect that He experiences it in a vastly different way than we do—on a different “linear plane”, if you will, where many of the conundrums and paradoxes about time travel that we humans conjure up don’t apply as we think they might.  Phrases like “one eternal round”, “one eternal now”, and the Lord’s manifestation and words to the Brother of Jared may be Christ attempting to “dumb down” those principles to something approaching what our puny minds can begin to comprehend; and the scenario @laronius posits of BoJ interacting with [from his own perspective] “future Christ”, intrigues me.

I agree with the above paragraph. I take all that people (certainly including myself) say on this subject with a grain* or two of salt.

*The expression "to take something with a grain of salt" apparently refers to the practice of putting salt in questionable foods to proactively sanitize or disinfect those foods. A grain is a measure of weight equal to a little under 1/7 ounce; think "a pinch of salt". To take an idea "with a grain of salt" would therefore mean to keep the idea at arm's length, not accepting it uncritically but instead cautioning yourself so that you don't become an unwitting victim of a falsehood.

[askandanswer]

On 11/25/2024 at 11:09 AM, mikbone said:

I think that the Brother of Jared saw Jehovah clothed in a body of Flesh and Bone.  The passage essentially states this.

I think the passage essentially states:

Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; (my bolding)

and

16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

 

 

 

[askandanswer]

If our reason for believing that the greatness of the brother or Jared's faith is evidenced by the fact that he saw the finger of the Lord, then perhaps we can conclude that his faith was similar to that of Oliver Cowdery who saw the whole of the Lord's resurrected body. 

I've sometimes been puzzled by the appearance of a contradiction between 

15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created,

and

 

Doctrine and Covenants 107:48 Enoch was twenty-five years old when he was ordained under the hand of Adam; and he was sixty-five and Adam blessed him.

49 And he saw the Lord, and he walked with him, and was before his face continually;

 

With the Brother of Jared having such great faith, I'm also puzzled about why the author or editor of the plates of Ether spoke so much about wars, wickedness and political intrigues and so little about the teachings and doings of this man of great faith. If the author or editor of these materials wrote his record on the basis of what he believed would be most beneficial to future readers, what assumptions did he have about us that led him to believe we would benefit more by reading accounts of wars and political intrigues rather than by faith-inspired teachings of the gospel?

 

[mikbone]

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I think the passage essentially states:

Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; (my bolding)

and

16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

 

 

 

No doubt the passage has been confusing to many.  Even Moroni felt the need to interject commentary in:

Ether 3:17 And now, as I, Moroni, said I could not make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites.

One has to ask, what kind of body did Jesus show unto the Nephites?

See 3 Ne 11:15 & note the commentary in Ether 3:13

 

Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, Vol.2, p.123-125

Question: "There are several references testifying to the fact that the Lord appeared to ancient prophets before the flood, yet we read in the Book of Mormon, Ether 3:6-16, that the Lord had never shown himself to man prior to the days of the Brother of Jared. What explanation can be offered to clarify this apparent contradiction?"

It is true that the Savior appeared to the prophets before the flood, but it is evident that he did not reveal himself in the fullness as he did to the Brother of Jared. Talking "face to face," as stated in this revelation, does not mean that the Lord did not appear in a cloud; or, that his body was partially hidden from the view of the prophet. All of this could occur and yet the Lord still be partially, if not completely, hidden from the prophet's view. The great difference rests in this, which the conversation of the Lord with the Brother of Jared clearly indicates: The Savior was conversing with the Brother of Jared in person, yes, evidently face to face, yet the Lord was hidden by a veil. The Brother of Jared knew that the Lord was there, but evidently he did not understand that the Lord had a body apparently of flesh and bones. Through his great faith he was able to see the finger of the Lord when the Lord touched the stones. So astonished did the prophet become that he fell to the earth in fright, fearing that the Lord might strike him. ...

 

Edited November 26, 2024 by mikbone

[Carborendum]

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I've sometimes been puzzled by the appearance of a contradiction between 

15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created,

Doctrine and Covenants 107:48 Enoch was twenty-five years old when he was ordained under the hand of Adam; and he was sixty-five and Adam blessed him.

49 And he saw the Lord, and he walked with him, and was before his face continually;

One perspective, is that Enoch saw the ante-mortal Jesus as He was then.

Mahonri saw something slightly different:

Quote

9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

Mahonri saw the future mortal Christ (or possibly resurrected Christ) as he saw the ante-mortal Christ before him.

Think about this.  Faith is something more than we give it credit for.  It is a real power that allows us to receive knowledge of things as they were, as they are, and as they are to come.  Enoch was righteous enough to walk with God every day.  But Mahonri had so much faith that he saw echos of the future without even seeking it.

That's something that I've not seen recorded anywhere else in scriptures.  I'd love to be corrected if I'm wrong.

It appears that our past, present, and future selves are knowable through the Spirit of Revelation.  What else could we see/know if we had sufficient faith?

Edited November 26, 2024 by Carborendum

[askandanswer]

31 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

But Mahonri had so much faith that he saw echos of the future without even seeking it.

It seems odd that Mahonri, in his present moment, could see a future finger of the Lord touching stones in a present moment. And I think there's lots of room to question whether what Mahonri saw was an echo of the future. The wording to me seems to suggest Mahonri saw the body of the Lord's spirit as it existed at that time.