Trouble with 15 yr old and bishop interview

[The Folk Prophet]

...is that she's been either groomed or assaulted by a DIFFERENT adult in her life, and is now hypervigilent & overreactingwith others, like her Bishop. Which means she has more than enough cause / it's understandable WHY she'd be doing this with someone who isn't vile and dangerous. Making both her and the bishop innocent of true wrongdoing. Like pooping in your boss's car. It's not okay in the general sense... But if you've become violently ill or have just been in a car wreck and your sphincters all relax due to sudden pain & trauma. Still a mess to be cleaned up, but it's an understandable mess, with cause. As opposed to sauntering out and having a squat because you don't like your boss. Which would be what she's done if she's being a brat. But if she's been assaulted and is overreacting... Then there would be cause.

 

Hmm. From the limited info given, I think the giggling with her friends about it implies something else. But perhaps. Interesting thought, either way.

[Bini]

TFP, I agree that no one wants to confess to errors publicly and that the fewer to know the easier the confession, for most. That said, I think safety is of the utmost importance, and trumps the awkwardness. Just like when I go in to see my doctor, if the physician is male, there will be a nurse sitting in while the doctor does his exam on me. This is standard these days, not because every doctor cannot be trusted or is a poor doctor, but to help avoid problems.

[Quin]

Hmm. From the limited info given, I think the giggling with her friends about it implies something else. But perhaps. Interesting thought, either way.

Not with teen girls.

The worse it is, the more likely it is to go viral. Either herself, in a way to get her own back... Or via a friend doing the same thing,,, or a frenemy doing the public shaming girl-fight-vicious-backstab, that she can either get crushed under, or claim credit for. Teen girl culture is vicious. And often completely opposite of how those same young women will act for the next 80 years. Once they grow up.

Granted,.. A lot of teen girls WILL hide in shame... But a huge portion make sure to tell every person they meet take photos, post them on an open website, practically hold a parade in town square... And hen completely FREAK OUT (You're invading my PRIVACY!!!) the moment an adult calls them on the sky writing, billboards, & ticker tape parade.

Q

[MacDow]

Im sorry but it seems like your daughter may be disturbed mentally and may have done some damage to the bishop. He might be aprehensive next time he questions a teen and thats a shame because its so important to be able to do his job. As far as him being alone with your daughter that is a valid concern. When my then my teen daughter had concerns about being alone with the bishop I simply asked for my wife and I to sit in the back of the chapel while he interviewed her in the front. He had no problem with this and worked out well. She even voiced some concerns she had to him.

[Wingnut]

The interviews are prescribed to be twice-yearly.  For youth aged 12-15, one interview per year should be with the bishop, while the other may be with a counselor.  For 16-17-year-old youth, both interviews should be with the bishop.

 

They are not required.  However, not participating in these interviews can have consequences, such as not being able to obtain a limited-use recommend for the temple*.  You mentioned in your OP that you didn't force your daughter to go to the temple with the ward.  The temple should never be forced.  If she doesn't want to attend, she probably shouldn't.  If she wants to attend, she needs to meet with the bishop.  If she refuses to meet with the bishop, then she needs to accept the consequence that she will be unable to attend the temple.

 

As I think about this more, it sounds to me a little like your daughter is just rebelling for the sake of rebelling.  As the oldest child, she is likely given the most responsibility and blame, but the least amount of freedom and control.  She may be acting out simply because she feels she is under your thumb and (like a toddler during the "terrible twos") simply is trying to assert a level of control in her own life.  The sharing may just be to get your attention.

 

Or, she may not have a testimony or want one.  Despite your own efforts and the way you've raised her, she may genuinely want nothing to do with the Church.  The more you push her into it, and force her to "do what's right," the more you may be pushing her away, in reality.  I don't have any advice for you on this issue, because I've often thought to myself that as long as my children live in my home as minors, they will go to church with the family, whether they like it or not.  When they're 18, they can make their own decisions.  Thinking about your recent experience, I'm not certain that I agree with myself on that anymore, though.  But it is an angle you should consider.





*Other things might include broadcasts of local temple dedication services, ecclesiastical recommendations for college, letters of recommendation, and other local non-official things (in my stake, youth have an interview with the bishop prior to attending Trek for youth conference every four years, and they sign an honor code contract).  Additionally, she would not be able to have a calling if she refuses to meet with the bishop or a member of the bishopric.

[yjacket]

Shepard,

 

Parenting in this modern world is exceptionally difficult.  I have made so many mistakes and my kids are young.  Not only are children bombarded by messages, but so are parents.  For example, if you have ever watched the movie "The Croods".  It seems to be a fun-loving movie, but the underlying messages are so destructive.  The message about an idiot father and the rebellious teenager who ends up being smarter than her dad and teaches her dad a thing or two.  This is 180 degrees what the message was 40 years ago of the very wise father helping the child learn to be an adult.

 

I'm not that old and while yes kids talked about "it", I chose my friends wisely and the friends I chose didn't talk about "it".  Your child isn't being exposed to "it", she is exposing others to "it".  And that is a big, big difference.  You can almost bet, bottom dollar that if she is willing to talk about "it" in that much detail, she is thinking about doing "it", if it hasn't already happened.

 

 There is a difference between being rebellious and slamming the door in your dad's face (which I did and my door-after the 10th time or so was promptly removed for several months) and being contemptuous of religious authority, parental authority,etc. Recording and sharing it to all her friends is a big, big problem.  Leading a revolt, to me means she's not the child who is following someone else, it means she is the one who is leading others into captivity and sin.  It quite frankly means your child is the rebellious ringleader.

 

Parenting is real hard, and if you are honestly seeking for the best interest of your child then you should read.  But please, please, please wake up and smell the coffee, your child has some very serious issues.  Since she is now 15, it may now be too late to spare her the pain and absolute suffering that is coming for her down the road.  15 and she is sharing recordings of her explaining things that she supposedly did.  16 and she is texting a boy about stuff, 17 and she is sending pictures, doing things, etc. 18 she is pregnant.  As an FYI, in many states it is an actual sex crime if a 18 year old sends explicit messages to an under-age teen.

 

A child who is this brazen to record it, send it to friends, is headed for trouble.  Your daughter didn't immediately go to the psychiatrist, or you, they got from a student you don't know!!!  I hope you can feel my sincerity, but please for all that is good in the world, do not worry about the bishop, worry about your daughter!!!!

 

If you really want to get a handle on things, then you will need to read.

If you truly want to fix this problem, I have one person who's books you will need to read.

John Rosemond: Teen-Proofing 

 

http://rosemond.com/teen-proofing/

&

John Rosemond: Parenting by the Book.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1416544844/?tag=googhydr-20&hvadid=32602029558&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=663143708805853569&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_2di9sb8yug_e

[Wingnut]

Maybe it's just me, but aren't we all adults here?  The site is open to ages 14+, but even the teenagers here know what "it" is that we're talking about.  Is there a reason we can't just say "sex?"

[Backroads]

Well, I certainly think some sort of investigation (preferably informal to formal) needs to happen here.  My impression is of a bad clash between an awkward bishop and a manipulative teenager.  Bishop isn't exactly suave when it comes to asking personal questions, sensitive teenage girl feels like some drama... chaos errupts. 

 

Indeed, bishops ought to have training if we as ward members continue to treat them like trained professionals.  At least training in when to recognize when they might be getting over their heads. 

 

But I also feel your daughter has some problems. Maybe serious, maybe just in immaturity. 

 

You need a better display of everyone's cards before this gets much worse. 

[Palerider]

When we say Bishops dont receive training is not totally accurate. I cant speak for the whole Church but, it comes down to the Stake Presidents and the training they give to the Bishops. We were always encouraged to make sure door not locked and to leave it partially open and to have someone sitting outside the door. That could be a councilor or parent or even a youth leader.  As for interviewing Youth I personally always used a different set of questions depending on their age. I am not crazy about having a Parent in the room with me while interviewing their son or daughter for two reasons. The first being I would be concerned with getting the young man or woman to open up and feel comfortable and the other reason is....I dont want Mom or Dad answering the questions for their son or daughter or trying to dominate the conversation.

   I have had some very good conversations with the youth when I interviewed them. There were times they told me things and would then ask.....are you going to tell my Parents?? I would reply No i am not....but I think you should. Had a few times where the youth asked if I could get their Parents and bring them into the room.

    Bishops are human and we make mistakes....these callings are hard enough as it is. You get more crap from members sometimes than what you got going door to door as a Missionary. If you have never been a Bishop you have no idea what its like.  The first time I was called I dont think I did a great job at my calling being new and learning what I was suppose to do. I never asked to be called either time, but I am thankfull I was called a second time and I feel like I did a better job the second time around.  Total combined years of serving both times was 11 years.

[Wingnut]

When we say Bishops dont receive training is not totally accurate. I cant speak for the whole Church but, it comes down to the Stake Presidents and the training they give to the Bishops. We were always encouraged to make sure door not locked and to leave it partially open and to have someone sitting outside the door.

 

I think that when most people talk about bishops having inadequate training, they're typically referring to things like the engineer bishop being completely clueless about teen psychology.  At least, that's what I think of when I talk about bishops needing more training.  Leaving the door cracked open is just plain common sense.

[Palerider]

I think that when most people talk about bishops having inadequate training, they're typically referring to things like the engineer bishop being completely clueless about teen psychology.  At least, that's what I think of when I talk about bishops needing more training.  Leaving the door cracked open is just plain common sense.

It might be common sense...but if a new rookie Bishop is clueless he would probally shut the door...not meaning any harm by it....but he would shut it....this one did it numerous times....

[Palerider]

The Church Handbooks help a great deal...but they don't help very much in other situations....there is so much to learn out there...ofyen times when all the Bishop's meet together you can learn a great deal from each other just from sitting in the room talking to each other.

[Irishcolleen]

Hmm. From the limited info given, I think the giggling with her friends about it implies something else. But perhaps. Interesting thought, either way.

 

Sometime people who have been assaulted try to make light of it to convince themselves what happened to them wasn't that bad. Some victims of sexual abuse become promiscuous because they think if they can devalue sex then they can make what happened to them feel less painful.  - just a bit of observation from my social work days...

[Tricia87]

a bishop asking for further details regarding LOC issues to a teenager is extremely inappropriate. If I found out my bishop asked my teenage daughter anything other than the standard "do you keep the LOC", there would be serious problems. if a YW does not fully understand the LOC, it should go to the parents for counsel, not under any circumstances the bishop.

[Just_A_Guy]

Random observations:

 

1)  I had some stuff I should have confessed as a teenager, but didn't, because I was afraid it would get back to my parents.  So with that background--I think having parents sit in on bishop's interviews is going to be counterproductive. 

 

2)  IMHO the bishop needs to know what was done (in ten words or less), who else was involved, when it happened, whether it has been repeated, what the confessor thinks about it now, and what steps the confessor will take to keep it from happening again and deal with any consequences (pregnancy?  injury?  property damage?  jail?) of the action.  I can't conceive of any other specifics of the transgression that a bishop might possibly need to know.  Was he going outside of those bounds?

 

3)  Not to put too fine a point on it--is your bishop creepy?

 

4)  IMHO, you shouldn't punish your daughter--if the bishop is acting illegally (and how's she to know?  All she knows is, she's uncomfortable with the situation), she did exactly the right thing up until she chose to disseminate the video to her friends rather than to you, law enforcement officials/mental health professionals, and/or the stake president. 

 

However, I think you should have a loving conversation about the degree of confidentiality she expects for her own peccadilloes, and note that--so long as no law has been violated--most other people will have that same level of expectation.  And if she doesn't seem to take that seriously, you might let her know that you're considering family therapy so that you and she can rebuild whatever relationship/trust problems led her to take her problems public (to the humiliation of a third party) rather than going through appropriate channels.  And if those therapy sessions just happen to conflict with one of her favorite extracurricular activities--well, that just shows how committed you are to fixing this, dangit!!!

[Palerider]

Sometime people who have been assaulted try to make light of it to convince themselves what happened to them wasn't that bad. Some victims of sexual abuse become promiscuous because they think if they can devalue sex then they can make what happened to them feel less painful. - just a bit of observation from my social work days...

Members like you are a good resource for a Bishop to have....I could speak with you and ask your opinion if you were in the Ward and I were the Bishop.

[Guest]

I'm sorry but the more I hear about these rules - must have 2 adults if a guy is teaching primary, and now wanting it for bishops etc... really makes me shake my head.,,

Parents need to parent. I have 2 boys, one is 12. I have taught that boy and I know him so well that I am confident in his ability to recognize inappropriate behavior from peers and adults and know how to extricate himself from it. And I know my bishop very well. I have to in order to sustain him as bishop with stewardship over my son. I can leave my son alone with him in his house for a weekend and I will sleep without worry because 1.) I trust that my bishop is an upstanding man, 2.) If for some very very very slim chance I am mistaken, I know my son will recognize the danger, and find a way to extricate himself, 3.) if by some extreme circumstance, the bishop uses physical force, I am confident that my son can defend himself.

I'm still teaching my 10 year old... I can't leave him to go to the bathroom at Walmart by himself yet... He goes with his brother. By the time he goes for interviews with the bishop, he'll have those skills such that I can leave him to go to a public bathroom by himself, let alone go have a talk with a bishop we've known since he was born.

2-deep rules make sense in a scout troop where you may have leaders that you've never met before conduct an activity. It doesn't make sense with a bishop an entire ward unanimously sustained to be one. If you can't trust your bishop to be alone with your youth, you should not sustain him, let alone leave your kids alone with him, required interview or not....

[Quin]

The rules are more to protect the adult in question than the child.

We have a multifaceted problem in this country,

- the legal system doesn't protect people (kids or adults) / there is almost no recourse...

(Granted, rapes are notoriously difficult to prosecute

...RAINNs stats are 97% failure rate, but that's part of the problem)

- most people have given up on reporting them

(RAINN stats are 67% unreported, but I've read as high as 87% / 1:8)

- vigilante justice is all but extinct

(not so long ago even copping a feel meant risking life & limb to daddies and brothers)

= All of which equals parents are scared. There's nothing they can do, except, as you say...

Drill their kids. Make it their responsibility to protect themselves.

And because child & teen judgement is soooooooooo lacking (for good reason, they're kids), that means that adults dealing with normal kids and scared parents need to protect themselves.

__________

Now... I'm a big bad combat trained ex-US Marine...

And I've been raped.

I look at my little ones?

No way.

No way can I depend on them to avoid what I couldn't.

I not only don't expect them to be able to fight off an assault,

I don't expect them to report, either.

Quite simply, because most don't.

And if they were sexually assaulted?

I'd love to believe that my kids would be the exception to the rule,

That mine would come straight to me...

But while that would be the best of a bad situation...

I can't count on it.

So, while I find the 2:1 & other rules sad...

I think it's for the opposite reason.

Because we've lost faith in our justice system in this area...

And instead depend on little kids & teenager's judgement & ability.

World gone mad.

Q

http://www.rainn.org/statistics

[Irishcolleen]

These situations are sad all around.  All I can say is "...Even so, come, Lord Jesus."- Rev:22:20 Someday we will be free from the world and the sin in it.

[Palerider]

These situations are sad all around.  All I can say is "...Even so, come, Lord Jesus."- Rev:22:20 Someday we will be free from the world and the sin in it.

I agree

[Shepard]

Thanks to all for the advice. Some have responded with words of warning and words of wisdom; some with helpful information or suggestions; some with concurrence and prayers; some with outrage and contained anger.

We scheduled an appointment with the bishop yesterday and I explained in about 3 sentences what happened. He responded with anger. He did not “blow his stack” but he was clearly upset and defensive. He lectured us for about 20 minutes calling us to repentance and said some things remarkably similar to what was said here: I’ll be blunt. Serious issues leading to further trouble. No regard for authority. Betrayal of him. Leading others into sinning. Ringleader of rebellious youth. And much more.

We just sat there feeling the shame wash over us. Then he asked my dd, “Now what have you got to say for yourself?” (I wondered if she was even listening). She counter-attacked. I saw something in her I have never observed before. A mind and tongue as sharp as a razor. Verbatim quotes of his words twisted against him. She had almost memorized everything he said. They argued. He was loud, disjointed and saying >90% of the words; she was calm, rational saying <10% of the words. I can’t relate all she said but here are some examples: (Not saying I agree with her.)

It wouldn’t be funny if it was appropriate, like the recording of a conference talk.

Every single person who has heard the recording tells me your questioning was unacceptable.

Would never condone a male doctor speaking like this to a young girl without a chaperone.

Or a male therapist. Or a male teacher. Or a male coach. Or a female teacher. Or a female coach.

Or the parents of one youth to another youth.

Normal rules of propriety don’t apply to bishops?

I created a little verbal soft pornography and you lapped it up.

Kept turning the figurative pages for more.

I could barely make it up as fast as you wanted it.

Asked for names of other LDS youth so you could interview them.

Show no interest in the non-LDS girls whose names I mention because you can’t interview them.

Wanted me to return weekly for more jollies.

You are addicted to these interviews, the thrill of the implied or explicit titillation.

And the power it gives you over the youth.

Obsessed with immodesty and out-ward appearance of young girls, no time for things of the spirit.

Did not recommend I see a doctor to check for disease.

Or planned parenthood to prevent pregnancy.

Or even suggest I keep a condom in my purse in case it happened again.

Or instruct me to report to the police who was selling drugs.

Recommended nothing more than confession, then prayers, scripture study which we already do.

And read a book written 45 yrs. ago, is now inconsistent with the church website on homosexuality.

Did not give me or my friends who might be listening one scrap of useful advice.

Now you are making my mother cry on mother’s day.

Respect is earned not demanded.

Louder and longer bishop, does not make you right.

My mild-mannered wife continued to cry and my daughter took her to the car telling her everything was going to be alright, in an odd reversal of the parent-child roles. Later my wife said she cannot deal with dd anymore, she is too strong and too sharp. She would continue to love her and pray for her but her bad behavior was too much and was my problem now.

After they left the bishop questioned me. He asked if I was holding FHE, daily prayers and scripture study. I replied about 80%. He said there you go, and he pointed out that even with 100, quality is more important than frequency. He observed her apparel was borderline immodest and she had too many non-LDS friends. Then he asked me if I was the one looking at pornography. (I do not). He accused me of inviting an evil spirit into my home and perhaps now it had infected her. What would demonic possession described in the scriptures look like in the modern world? He believes she must be guilty of most of the sins confessed or she would be more submissive.

The bishop grew up on a ranch and said children are like horses. They need to be broke or they never amount to much. My daughter is not “church broke.” It is my responsibility to do it now. She might be too old but it was the only hope for her. He challenged me to do my duty as her father.

[Shepard]

Continued..

 

Sunday afternoon everyone was quiet, walking on eggshells. I recalled reading somewhere that you can never win arguments with teenagers. The words of the bishop sank deeply into my mind. I prayerfully made a list of consequences of her actions. I met with her in the family room alone in the evening. I explained simply and calmly that her behavior in connection with the recording of the bishop was wrong and as her father I was going to impose consequences. I handed the list to her. Here it is:

Consequences for lying to the Bishop, making a digital recording of it and sharing it with friends.

1. Grounded until further notice. Will attend church, school and home. Nothing else.
2. Cancelled: all extra-curricular activities; region track meet, debate team, performances.
3. No movies or parties or activities with friends, except YM/YW.
4. Bedtime 9:00 pm. Get up at 5:00 am.
5. Family prayer and scripture study twice daily. No more skips for FHE.
6. About half her cloths confiscated; collarbone, elbows and near the ankles the boundaries.
7. No more make-up, jewelry or color streaks in hair.
8. No more coca-cola, candy or other junk foods.
9. Drivers permit on hold, no more driving.
10. The red sports car intended for her to be sold.

School will be out shortly and for the summer:

1. Summer job as life guard at a community pool not permitted.
2. Cancelled: girl’s camp, temple trip, family vacation.
3. Daily exercise on programmable treadmill with documentation of HR over 170 for 1 hr.
4. Work in garden for 4 hr. a day. Back yard to be roto-tilled by me and large garden put in.
5. Paint the inside of the house, one room each week. Kitchen- 2 weeks.
6. Additional chore list as determined by mother.
7. Practice the piano for I hr. a day after finishing other tasks.
8. Summer reading list; Ensign back issues 2012, 2013 and this year to date.
9. Memorize the pamphlet: For the Strength of Youth. Pass off portions each week.
10. ***We’re going back to 1920 with communication devices!!!

No cell phone, computer, social media. No TV, radio, telephone, etc.

Nothing that uses electricity to communicate.

 

She read the list and smiled. “You know, I have already won.” The bishop will never interview me again without a chaperone. All of my friends will either request chaperones or secretly record their interviews. Even if they don’t record then, it will always be in the back of the bishop’s mind, this conversation could be recorded. That alone is worth a summer going Amish.

 

She continued, not only has the recording been shared with friends at school, it is making its way slowly into other wards and stakes. She claims she has received dozens of messages from LDS girls from other places and most of them relate being uncomfortable with the bishop interviews and express solidarity with her. She knew she couldn’t change the whole church but she has changed the ward and done more than she expected.

 

 She pointed out that many of my consequences are also rather inconvenient for us as her parents. We are going to find out who is strong and who is weak in following them, she retorted. You love that red car more than I do, for example. It will give me delight watching you sell it.

 

 I mentioned there was a way out for her. If she had actually been molested by another person, not the bishop but anyone else, it might explain her actions. The consequences could be modified. She laughed and replied, do you want me to make something else up again? Don’t be ridiculous.  If anyone did something like that to me I would have my friends make it so not worth it. I don’t use drugs but I have friends who sell them. I could black-mail them into doing practically anything. Don’t worry dad, I’m a big girl now and I can take care of myself.

 

This morning she was up at 4:45 am, scriptures in hand, wearing a pioneer dress with a snarky smile.

[Backroads]

Okay...

 

Still not supporting a lot of your daughter's actions.

 

Also not agreeing with a lot of your bishop's comments.

 

Get the stake president involved pronto.

[The Folk Prophet]

Still not supporting a lot of your daughter's actions.

 

Are there any you are supporting? 

[Backroads]

I find some of her points valid.