Modesty Police verses Doctrine

[Guest]

Since your post was addressed to me I feel like I should respond. It is not appropriate for a 16YO to shop at VC or Fredricks. 

 

You don't need to be shopping at VS or Fredericks to see their products.  They're at the mall.  With big display windows.  And no ID checks.

 

 

I will quote you again "So I have no problem for the Church or adult leaders to teach that a) we should be modest, b ) it is a shared responsibility both on the viewer to "garnish their thoughts" but also on the viewee to not be walking lingerie model that would encourage the viewer to not garnish their thoughts.  And when individuals say that wearing modest clothes is a form of self-respect, it is, b/c as my wife says "if you don't want to be thought of as a particular type of person, then don't dress like one.""

 

I agree with this statement 

 

Uhm... we just went through 4 pages of back and forth and here you agree with exactly what we've been saying.  What was the point of you saying we're not responsible for helping each other?

 

You're making me un-Asian... lol.

[omegaseamaster75]

You don't need to be shopping at VS or Fredericks to see their products.  They're at the mall.  With big display windows.  And no ID checks.

 

 

 

Uhm... we just went through 4 pages of back and forth and here you agree with exactly what we've been saying.  What was the point of you saying we're not responsible for helping each other?

 

You're making me un-Asian... lol.

There is a big difference between a woman walking around in lingerie and a girl wearing a bikini at the beach or yoga pants at the gym, or shorts and a tank top on a hot day. 

 

That's the difference, we should be able to deal with the everyday stuff.

[estradling75]

There is a big difference between a woman walking around in lingerie and a girl wearing a bikini at the beach or yoga pants at the gym, or shorts and a tank top on a hot day. 

 

That's the difference, we should be able to deal with the everyday stuff.

 

 

Yes we should...  But we need to learn to deal with it in our youth... and that requires instructions, guidance, direction from (hopefully) more wise adults.  And that brings us back full circle to teaching the youth what it means to be modest and how to do so effectively. 

[Guest]

There is a big difference between a woman walking around in lingerie and a girl wearing a bikini at the beach or yoga pants at the gym, or shorts and a tank top on a hot day. 

 

That's the difference, we should be able to deal with the everyday stuff.

 

This thread is not debating shorts or tank top on a hot day or yoga pants at the gym.  This thread is debating the teaching that women have influence on society including in their manner of dress.  You and I, specifically, had a discussion that it is in my covenant to HELP men (and women, if truth be told) keep their own covenants which includes my choice to be modest.  You disagreed with that.

[omegaseamaster75]

This thread is not debating shorts or tank top on a hot day or yoga pants at the gym.  This thread is debating the teaching that women have influence on society including in their manner of dress.  You and I, specifically, had a discussion that it is in my covenant to HELP men (and women, if truth be told) keep their own covenants which includes my choice to be modest.  You disagreed with that.

They can help by not running around in lingerie I suppose  

 

My main point and this is were we disagree is that I have an obligation to my covenant to control my natural man, LDS woman dressing modestly is requested of us by our leaders, but how does a man deal with outside influences? I suppose that a LDS woman dressing modestly is helping, but I put 98.9% of the responsibility on the man.

[The Folk Prophet]

Yes we should...  But we need to learn to deal with it in our youth... and that requires instructions, guidance, direction from (hopefully) more wise adults.  And that brings us back full circle to teaching the youth what it means to be modest and how to do so effectively. 

 

 +1

 

Not to mention, not every youth is blessed to have wise adults to teach them and guide them. Do we just throw out modest dress because youth are supposed to have been taught well by their parents to handle such things properly? Of course not.

 

Additionally, even amongst those who are taught well we are not all the same, and we do not all react the same to sexually alluring things. We have different psyches, different maturity, different libidos, different wisdom, etc., etc. Even if omegaseamaster75's claimed perfect control over these things is accurate, it does not universally mean that women need not bother covering up. And moreover, the fact that we have to learn to deal with those who will flaunt their skin at us, does not justify righteous women who know better flaunting their skin at us. In short, one person's weakness does not justify another's "am I my brother's keeper?" attitude in any regard.

[Guest]

They can help by not running around in lingerie I suppose  

 

My main point and this is were we disagree is that I have an obligation to my covenant to control my natural man, LDS woman dressing modestly is requested of us by our leaders, but how does a man deal with outside influences? I suppose that a LDS woman dressing modestly is helping, but I put 98.9% of the responsibility on the man.

 

And this is where we've been on different wavelengths.

 

The man is not 98.9% responsible for his thoughts/actions.  He is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT responsible for his thoughts and actions.  No less.

 

The woman is also ONE HUNDRED PERCENT responsible for her own actions that lead mankind to its destruction.

 

That is so important that it is spelled out right there in our Articles of Faith.  We are judged according to our sins and not the sins of others.

 

And THAT is the lesson that CrossfitDan's daughter is supposed to have come away in that Sunday School lesson.

[Backroads]

Because it is comfortable and in yoga for example posture and poses should be exact, wearing baggy sweat pants does not allow for an instructor to critique or help.

 

I would also add that, in certain poses, tight yoga pants better lend themselves to modesty than BYUI's gym shorts (unless they've changed them since I attended.)

 

And to throw out my opinion on the topic at hand, I see a balance.  I do not believe the ultimate purpose of modesty is to keep male minds clean, but don't justify immodest dress on that principle.

[Backroads]

Did we just concede here that nudists are living some kind of "higher law"??? :)

 

That would include a vigilant adherence to the WoW.  There's just too many people out there, in their current health and body shape, who shouldn't be nudists.

[MrShorty]

That would include a vigilant adherence to the WoW.  There's just too many people out there, in their current health and body shape, who shouldn't be nudists.

 

This is probably said in a lighthearted, maybe joking, way -- it can be hard to tell on the internet. If there is any seriousness to it, I would respectfully disagree. I don't think any form of "nudism as higher law" would include "only beautiful people should be seen nude (by whatever society's standard of beauty is -- BMI or age or whatever)".

 

It is another interesting claim that I see come out of the nudist community -- they claim to have an overall better handle on body image issues. Maybe because they have seen it all (short fat thin tall old young etc.) and put it all on display.

 

I'm not a nudist, nor am I promoting nudism. A lot of the time I find that parts of our modesty discourse are contradicted by some of the claims coming out of the nudist community and I find that interesting. I wonder if there is an opportunity to better understand what modesty means to us by understanding those contradictions.

[Backroads]

Indeed, I meant it light-heartedly.

 

Though I feel I should mention that, gospel principles aside, I intellectually have zero problem with nudity.

[Jenamarie]

When reading through the Scriptures about modesty, it's almost always about not dressing in a way specifically to draw attention to yourself, and in particular to your social standing/wealth. The Lord would rather see a woman "adorned with good works" than with "plaited hair" and fine linens. It's not about hiding or disguising our bodies, but putting our focus on doing good, rather than on looking good. It's not about others, it's about ourselves.

[Traveler]

Confucius say: “Woman without principle generate lots of interest”

[SpiritDragon]

Confucius say: “Woman without principle generate lots of interest”

so clever, I groaned and chuckled.

[The Folk Prophet]

When reading through the Scriptures about modesty, it's almost always about not dressing in a way specifically to draw attention to yourself, and in particular to your social standing/wealth. The Lord would rather see a woman "adorned with good works" than with "plaited hair" and fine linens. It's not about hiding or disguising our bodies, but putting our focus on doing good, rather than on looking good. It's not about others, it's about ourselves.

 

This is somewhat in contradiction to missionaries wearing suits and ties, particularly in certain areas of the world. Undoubtedly part of why missionaries dress as missionaries is to draw attention to themselves. It's the "why" we draw attention to ourselves that matters.

 

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Matt 5:16

 

So I partially agree with you, but partially not. :)

[carlimac]

The answer is a solid maybe...  :)  For me my wife is 'fair' game and it doesn't matter what she wears my thoughts are allowed to "go there."   Everyone else is off limits and it is not allowed.  Which means I have to rein it in on everyone else I might find physically attractive.  Not every guy is going to be attracted to the same physical qualities, and each guy is going to have different levels of self control.  So some guys might have a problem even with modestly dressed women if they lack self control. Others will have no problem at all

Might I just add my thoughts to this? Yes it's OK to think about your wife in this way but timing is everything. If you're dwelling on this in the middle of Sacrament Meeting, it might not be appropriate. Also if you're dwelling on it as your wife is getting out of the shower, completely undressed but she clearly doesn't feel well, again, it's not appropriate and she is not fair game at that point. 

[The Folk Prophet]

Might I just add my thoughts to this? Yes it's OK to think about your wife in this way but timing is everything. If you're dwelling on this in the middle of Sacrament Meeting, it might not be appropriate. Also if you're dwelling on it as your wife is getting out of the shower, completely undressed but she clearly doesn't feel well, again, it's not appropriate and she is not fair game at that point. 

 

Um...I need to repent...a lot...apparently. No one ever told me I can't think about my wife that way in Sacrament meeting. Dang it!

[carlimac]

Um...I need to repent...a lot...apparently. No one ever told me I can't think about my wife that way in Sacrament meeting. Dang it!

NO man can serve two masters. If you're thinking about that, you're not thinking about the talks or sacrament or words to the song or even the precious children who are screaming.

[carlimac]

I actually wish that they had talked about this and more when I was a youth. I honestly believe that a lot of young women are oblivious to what they are wearing and the effect it might have on the young men. No one told us this. I didn't actually learn what was going on in the minds of young men till my husband told me a decade later.  Luckily the fashions when I was 16 were cords and baggy t-shirts or the preppy look. Very UN-sexy. Whew! I also believe that many young girls dress to impress other girls. It's a popularity thing rather than a seduce the guys thing.

[The Folk Prophet]

NO man can serve two masters. If you're thinking about that, you're not thinking about the talks or sacrament or words to the song or even the precious children who are screaming.

 

Thanks. Your wisdom has made me a better man. 

[estradling75]

Might I just add my thoughts to this? Yes it's OK to think about your wife in this way but timing is everything. If you're dwelling on this in the middle of Sacrament Meeting, it might not be appropriate. Also if you're dwelling on it as your wife is getting out of the shower, completely undressed but she clearly doesn't feel well, again, it's not appropriate and she is not fair game at that point. 

 

 

You are reading my statement of 'fair game' as an absolute.  Whereas I used it to try to describe a mindset or the emotional response.   A guy simply does not have to have the same level of self control with his wife.  This is not the same as saying he has none.  Its simply goes from what should be an absolute to one based on context, personality, and personal preferences (Both his and hers).  For most guys that is a hugely profound difference, which 'fair game' sums up decently well.

[MrShorty]

Confucius say: “Woman without principle generate lots of interest”

Confucius is probably right here. The leap in logic that I see is: How did we decide that a "woman in a sleeveless sundress on a hot summer day" must be a "woman without principle"?

[estradling75]

Confucius is probably right here. The leap in logic that I see is: How did we decide that a "woman in a sleeveless sundress on a hot summer day" must be a "woman without principle"?

 

It is a leap...  The Folk Prophet gave the biblical standard for Modesty.  Which a sleeveless sundress could qualify under.  But this group is largely LDS... And we have temple garments.  For the temple garment wearing group, modesty includes keeping the the temple garment covered, because that is the promise we made.

 

That sets a very clear standard for us.  It is however human nature to take what we think is right and correct for us and apply it to everyone else.  Many times this works just fine, and of course we want to teach our kids this standard to prepare them for the temple.  But it can in the course of being taught also distort to the idea that a sleeveless sun dress woman is (as you linked together) "without principle".

 

That would be a failure in judgment/teaching/understanding etc.

[Suzie]

If we were not in this fallen mortal state, I'd go with the nudists.  It's the same sentiment I have for Communists.  If we were not in this fallen mortal state, Communism is perfect.

 

Better be ready to talk with Benson on the other side of the veil.

[Suzie]

And, of course, it also debases men. It teaches them that he can't be in control of his urges, which is a lie. Men are much more than their sexual urges, just as women are much more than their bodies.

 

I have this quote of Holland I really like . It is not about modesty but touches a bit at the end what you just shared.

 

...What kind of man is he, what priesthood or power or strength or self control, does this man have that lets him develop in society, grow to the age of mature accountability, perhaps even pursue a university education, and prepare to affect the future of colleagues and kingdoms and the course of this world, , but yet does not have the mental capacity or the moral will to say "I will not do that thing".

 

No, this sorry drugstore psychology would have him say "I just can't help myself. My glands have complete control over my entire life, my mind, my will, my very future."

 

To say that a young woman in such a relationship, has to bear her responsibility and that of his too, is the most discriminatory doctrine I have ever heard".