Is it possible to be liberal and LDS?

[Brad O.]

Hi,

 

I'm LDS and I have a "mostly-conservative" mind.  This means I consider myself 25% liberal and 75% conservative.  Over the past few years, nearly everyone in my immediate family who has a "mostly-liberal" mind has fallen away from the Church (and I'm not exaggerating.)  

 

Before they fell away, some of them put forth great effort to convince me that you can be liberal and a member of the LDS church.  Needless to say, now I am almost completely convinced of the opposite.

 

This whole situation troubles me greatly and I find myself agonizing over it regularly.  I wish my family could all just be happy members of the Church so we could continue to have that in common.  At this point, I never even talk to my family about the Church except maybe mention that I gave a talk or one of my kids gave a talk.  It feels weird because we used to talk about the gospel all the time.  

 

This is going to sound bad, but my experiences with my family has given me an extremely negative and tainted view of being "mostly-liberal."  I guess the way I look at it is that if being "mostly-liberal" means you reject and get offended by the great things taught by the Church, being "mostly-liberal" must be a bad thing.  I do not understand the hostility towards the Church from my family in recent years at all and I think they are just being manipulated and misled.

 

Is my conclusion wrong?  Is it possible to have a "mostly-liberal" mind and be a happy member of the Church.  

 

Brad O.

[Guest]

Liberal or Conservative has no relevance to being LDS.

 

I'm using Liberal and Conservative in its dictionary usage - not the Democrat vs Republican usage.

 

The Plan of Salvation, for example, both has elements of Liberalism and Conservatism.  "The parents are to teach their children lest the sin be upon them" is a Conservative principle.  "We are to act according to our personal revelation" is a Liberal principle.  The organization of the Church with the Prophet having all the keys and establishing the policies of the Church is a Conservative Principle.  The rejection of Lucifer's plan is a Liberal Principle.

 

I can go on and on...

[Jane_Doe]

I don't like using the term "liberal" vs "conservative" because a person does not have to be one or the other.  For instance, I loathe "liberal" ObamaCare, but am very pro "liberal" environmentalism.  

 

Is there any particular area that's coming up with your relatives? 

Edited December 9, 2014 by Jane_Doe

[Vort]

Brad, the stock answer is, "Of course! The gospel has nothing to do with sociopolitical views! Everyone is welcome under the Big Tent!"

 

In my experience, reality is a great deal more nuanced than this. For simple social reasons, Church members whose political tastes are toward the Left of the spectrum find themselves feeling isolated from their brothers and sisters. This is a sad and needless phenomenon. We as a people should be much more tolerant of nonstandard ideas -- and, of course, those with nonstandard ideas must also exercise patience and charity toward their more mainstream brethren and sisters. We have probably all been in this situation in some situation or other. For example, I happen to accept the basic precepts of organic evolution for life on earth, including human life, which in the past has occasionally caused some cognitive interference with fellow Saints.

 

In my estimation, there are also important and more fundamental reasons that Saints on the political Left often feel some estrangement, both from their fellow Saints and from the Church as an institution. In America and much of the Western world, the political Left has adopted many beliefs and philosophies that are simply at variance with basic truth, revealed and otherwise. Like all people who harbor beliefs antithetical to the realities of the gospel, those who accept such philosophies will struggle to reconcile their politics with the teachings of the kingdom.

 

I am sorry to hear about your family's struggles. It's a frightening thing, and has become all too common. But people get to make their own decisions. Repentance is always available to those who humble themselves -- good news for all of us.

[Crypto]

My former stake president (now out on a mission), and a former bishop from my ward are both liberal. They are very faithful people, and I have great respect for both of them.

[mrmarklin]

Harry Reid is a Mormon, and he is thee face of what we call "liberalism" in the US.  Not to be confused with classic liberalism. B)

[Bini]

Yes, it's possible to be Liberal and LDS. And there's a good handful of us here on the forum.

[Suzie]

I know some of you are probably going to think I am crazy (and that's okay lol) but I never saw myself as "liberal". I am just being well.. ME. And after a very long time, I said to myself: "Hey Suz, the way you think indeed seems sort of liberal".

 

 

And I am perfectly okay with that.

[Guest MormonGator]

Yes, totally. I'm The church isn't about political parties/ideologies. 

[Backroads]

I'm registered with the Constitution Party, am a cheerleader for the Green Party, and usually refer to myself as a libertarian. The Green party might reflect some liberal tendencies.

[bytor2112]

In America and much of the Western world, the political Left has adopted many beliefs and philosophies that are simply at variance with basic truth, revealed and otherwise. Like all people who harbor beliefs antithetical to the realities of the gospel, those who accept such philosophies will struggle to reconcile their politics with the teachings of the kingdom.

 

 

Very well said. I think much of liberal ideology or far left politics, particularly that which has been on display the past several years is incompatible with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. 

Edited December 10, 2014 by bytor2112

[The Folk Prophet]

I read the OP as talking about liberal Mormonism, rather than liberal politics.

Of course there are semantic issues involved. What is actually meant by "liberal"? Like some of the stuff anatess was saying is liberal... What? I'm clearly not in sync with whatever she's thinking.

My view is that being liberal as a Mormon usually means prescribing to a looser idea of belief than is standard in the gospel. It refers to those who disagree with basic, common tenets such as "follow the prophet". Liberals tend to excuse away ideas they are uncomfortable with. They tend to put their thinking and ideologies above the teachings of the leaders of the church.

Such thinking is, in my opinion, off the correct path. It may not be turned around heading the opposite direction. But neither is it straight and true.

There is only one way, only one truth, only one path, and only one method of thinking that will lead to salvation. That is complete and absolute submission to He who is mighty to save. Complete submission to Him. Complete consecration to His church and kingdom. A total and absolute sacrifice of self.

And that's a pretty conservative-Mormon thing in my view.

Edited December 10, 2014 by The Folk Prophet

[FunkyTown]

Culturally, some parts of the church are at odds with being both liberal and part of the church. Specifically in the US.

Here in the UK, there are many people who love the NHS(National Health Service) who are members of the church. Strong members. There are many members who are anti-gun. Strong members. There are many members of all races, with many ideas on immigration and taxation.

But the church is dependent on its members. If you're in a mostly Conservative area, it may be incompatible to be Liberal and a member of the church. Not because of the churches teachings, but because rugged individualism and American Exceptionalism is ingrained in to the psyche of those people.

I'd suggest looking up cognitive dissonance and how it affects behaviour.

[MarginOfError]

There is only one way, only one truth, only one path, and only one method of thinking that will lead to salvation. That is complete and absolute submission to He who is mighty to save. Complete submission to Him. Complete consecration to His church and kingdom. A total and absolute sacrifice of self.

And that's a pretty conservative-Mormon thing in my view.

 

Folk Prophet, I don't intend to pass judgment on what you have said here.  I don't have any objection to you having your opinion (even if I think it is lunacy :) ), but it gives a convenient springboard to describe why liberal mormons can have a hard time remaining in the church.

 

What you have to understand about liberal mormons leaving the church is that, while there may be doctrinal concerns chipping at the testimony, they usually leave because the social cost of staying is too great.  Liberal mormons tend to make their exodus when people start to use opinions like Folk Prophet's as the standard against which worthiness and faithfulness are measured.  This is needless and wrong.  And it takes an enormous amount of commitment and dedication to remain in a church where you feel the members do not welcome or value you.

 

To share some examples of times when I have found my desire to be at church lessened:

1. When I described on Facebook what I was giving up for Lent and a member of my ward sneered because, "Mormons don't do that."
2. When I advocated for a strong fundraiser for the young women to purchase their own Girls Camp supplies (tents, cooking equipment, etc) and was met with resistance because, "why can't they just borrow everything from members?"
3. When I openly boycotted the Elders' Quorum Thanksgiving Day football game because the invitation said, "If you don't come, perhaps you should consider attending Relief Society on Sunday."

Liberal mormons feel the eye rolls and the groans.  I can tell when people in my ward are thinking "there goes MOE again.  Does he ever get off his soapbox?"  It makes church an uncomfortable space when everyone wishes you would just fit in with everyone else (or at least keep quiet).  

 

I've been fortunate to have good people in my ward who share some of my views and can support me through the hard times (whether they know they do it or not).  I also have a few shining examples of conservative/orthodox mormons who clearly don't agree with me on many things, but don't care either.  

 

It boils down to this: for most humans, if they don't feel safe and accepted when they go to church, they can't feel the Spirit.  And if they can't feel the Spirit, there is little incentive or benefit to coming.  Which is why we must be better about accepting all of our members, liberal or conservative, and making them feel at home and cared for in our social circles.  When we fail to make someone feel accepted, they will leave.  That's as much a fault of ours as it is of theirs.

[The Folk Prophet]

...the members do not welcome or value you...

 

This is a logical fallacy drawn from my comments.

 

I can fully testify that I, being ultra conservative, am just as unwelcome and unvalued by just as many members as you.

 

People are jerks. That has no bearing on my comments.

 

Humility is humility. Becoming like the Savior is becoming like the Savior. Following the strait and narrow path is following the strait and narrow path. Feeling welcome or valued, while a valid issue, is another issue entirely and has naught to do with my point.

 

Logical fallacy: Because liberal Mormons are often judged by conservative Mormons it is okay to be liberal.

Edited December 10, 2014 by The Folk Prophet

[Backroads]

The trouble with the "mean old conservative Mormons" line is liberals Mormons as described by TFP can be as bad. If you aren't looser with your beliefs and faith you are pitied, sneered at, and considered uneducated/stunted in your intellectual and philosophical growth. Many of these people desire to rid the Church of many of its core doctrines and despise anyone with a traditional testimony.

[Brad O.]

The trouble with the "mean old conservative Mormons" line is liberals Mormons as described by TFP can be as bad. If you aren't looser with your beliefs and faith you are pitied, sneered at, and considered uneducated/stunted in your intellectual and philosophical growth. Many of these people desire to rid the Church of many of its core doctrines and despise anyone with a traditional testimony.

 

Thank you for your comments.

 

Jane_doe asked me if there are any specific areas coming up with my "liberal-minded" relatives.  I prefer not to get into specifics because I don't want this thread to evolved into discussing these topics as they've all been discussed here before.  I can say that I have noticed a combative and hostile attitude towards various Church policies.  I don't agree with every Church policy myself... however I do realize that these policies are necessary, just as policies are necessary in any organization.  My homeowner's association and place of business have policies that I don't agree with also, but I realize that these policies are necessary for a large number of different-minded people to co-exist as a community.  

 

Backroads brings up a major cause of my frustration....  I see many "liberal-minded" people demanding changes in the Church, which I think is reprehensible.  This is something I'm seeing more and more in American society in general too....  1.  A person joins a religion or other group  2. That person doesn't like one or more things about that religion or group 3.  That person accuses the religion or group of being unfair, racist, sexist, or similar to manipulate that religion or group to change to accommodate their specific desires.  As a "mostly conservative-minded" person, this type of behavior angers me greatly.  I think anger is really the only reasonable reaction to behavior such as this.

 

Brad O. 

[Windseeker]

 

Those who govern their thoughts and actions solely by the principles of liberalism or conservatism or intellectualism cannot be expected to agree with all of the teachings of the gospel of Jesus Christ. As for me, I find some wisdom in liberalism, some wisdom in conservatism, and much truth in intellectualism—but I find no salvation in any of them. ~ Dallin H. Oaks

 

We ought to be careful when we associate with any social-political movement.

 

There has been great progress in some aspects of our social condition and also great retrogression in other aspects. Regardless of where the ideas come from (Right or Left) the closer they are to true, correct principles taught in the gospel the better they are for society.

 

 That said, it's also important for us to step back look at our values and ideas and ensure that we are holding fast to the iron rod and not being swayed by the ridicule, social pressure and enticements constantly raining down on us from the great and spacious building. 

 

In my opinion, within the United States anyway, the mocking, cynicism and calling good evil and evil good seems to be exclusively coming from those on the Left (the "cool kids" club) now days. Perhaps that is why it seems like those who associate themselves with the Left seem to have a tenuous grip on the Iron Rod.  

 

..and just as an edit, I try not to treat people differently no matter what my opinion on their ideas or how strong their grip on the Iron Rod.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Windseeker

[The Folk Prophet]

...the mocking, cynicism and calling good evil and evil good seems to be exclusively coming from those on the Left (the "cool kids" club) now days.  

 

I'd say "exclusively" is probably taking it a bit too far.

[FunkyTown]

Logical fallacy: Because liberal Mormons are often judged by conservative Mormons it is okay to be liberal.

YAY! We're in to logical fallacies. The argument you're saying here is what would be called a non-sequitur, or 'It does not follow' fallacy.

However, can you point out who made that argument and where? I would suggest humbly that if you can not, you are using what is called a 'Strawman' fallacy.

Me, I say it's okay to be a liberal Mormon because you can believe in the prophets, apostles, Jesus Christ, tithing, the Book of Mormon et al without being a dyed-in-the-wool conservative.

There is nothing stopping a liberal from being Mormon doctrinally. Only socially.

But I am interested to see where you saw someone argue that 'Because liberal Mormons are judged by conservative Mormons, it's okay to be liberal'. I obviously don't want to call out a strawman if I'm wrong and I'd love to be able to say "Wow. Was THAT person wrong. That's not why it's okay to be liberal at all. That's a meaningless argument. It's okay to be liberal for an entirely different reason.'

Edited December 10, 2014 by FunkyTown

[Vort]

What you have to understand about liberal mormons leaving the church is that, while there may be doctrinal concerns chipping at the testimony, they usually leave because the social cost of staying is too great.

 

I expect this is true in >50% of the cases of everyone, not only liberals. Being friendly and accepting and keeping our communications pure and uncorrupt is underrated.

 

Liberal mormons feel the eye rolls and the groans.  I can tell when people in my ward are thinking "there goes MOE again.  Does he ever get off his soapbox?"  It makes church an uncomfortable space when everyone wishes you would just fit in with everyone else (or at least keep quiet).

 

Conservative Mormons don't like being lectured any more than the liberals. We all have our opinions, but the idea of any society is that we explore certain ideas that we have in common. Especially at Church, most people are striving for unity. It does get wearisome to always, always, always have the points of disagreement brought up and perceived flaws pointed out. I know this from extensive personal experience, and am sure I have been the cause of it plenty of times.

 

I've been fortunate to have good people in my ward who share some of my views and can support me through the hard times (whether they know they do it or not).  I also have a few shining examples of conservative/orthodox mormons who clearly don't agree with me on many things, but don't care either.

 

Is there no middle ground, as in people who clearly don't agree with you on many things AND find those things of great importance, but who love and value you despite your contrary opinions?

 

It boils down to this: for most humans, if they don't feel safe and accepted when they go to church, they can't feel the Spirit.  And if they can't feel the Spirit, there is little incentive or benefit to coming.  Which is why we must be better about accepting all of our members, liberal or conservative, and making them feel at home and cared for in our social circles.

 

Here is where I think your sig applies.

[Windseeker]

I'd say "exclusively" is probably taking it a bit too far.

 

Yes your right, I apologize. I myself find Rush Limbaugh distasteful and stopped listening too him 5 years ago. He definitely mocks and is cynical. I stopped listening to many others for that same reason.

 

I don't really have time to make my statement any better. I'll just say that I don't really see the Right attacking and mocking Family Values.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Windseeker

[The Folk Prophet]

YAY! We're in to logical fallacies. The argument you're saying here is what would be called a non-sequitur, or 'It does not follow' fallacy.

However, can you point out who made that argument and where? I would suggest humbly that if you can not, you are using what is called a 'Strawman' fallacy.

But I am interested to see where you saw someone argue that 'Because liberal Mormons are judged by conservative Mormons, it's okay to be liberal'. I obviously don't want to call out a strawman if I'm wrong and I'd love to be able to say "Wow. Was THAT person wrong. That's not why it's okay to be liberal at all. That's a meaningless argument. It's okay to be liberal for an entirely different reason.'

 

No. I'll admit it. I strawman'd it.

 

Me, I say it's okay to be a liberal Mormon because you can believe in the prophets, apostles, Jesus Christ, tithing, the Book of Mormon et al without being a dyed-in-the-wool conservative.

There is nothing stopping a liberal from being Mormon doctrinally. Only socially.

 

If this were universally true, I agree. My experience tells me otherwise. Liberal Mormons, to my understanding, are always "liberal" doctrinally at some level.

[Brad O.]

Folk Prophet, I don't intend to pass judgment on what you have said here.  I don't have any objection to you having your opinion (even if I think it is lunacy :) ), but it gives a convenient springboard to describe why liberal mormons can have a hard time remaining in the church.

 

What you have to understand about liberal mormons leaving the church is that, while there may be doctrinal concerns chipping at the testimony, they usually leave because the social cost of staying is too great.  Liberal mormons tend to make their exodus when people start to use opinions like Folk Prophet's as the standard against which worthiness and faithfulness are measured.  This is needless and wrong.  And it takes an enormous amount of commitment and dedication to remain in a church where you feel the members do not welcome or value you.

 

To share some examples of times when I have found my desire to be at church lessened:

1. When I described on Facebook what I was giving up for Lent and a member of my ward sneered because, "Mormons don't do that."
2. When I advocated for a strong fundraiser for the young women to purchase their own Girls Camp supplies (tents, cooking equipment, etc) and was met with resistance because, "why can't they just borrow everything from members?"
3. When I openly boycotted the Elders' Quorum Thanksgiving Day football game because the invitation said, "If you don't come, perhaps you should consider attending Relief Society on Sunday."

Liberal mormons feel the eye rolls and the groans.  I can tell when people in my ward are thinking "there goes MOE again.  Does he ever get off his soapbox?"  It makes church an uncomfortable space when everyone wishes you would just fit in with everyone else (or at least keep quiet).  

 

I've been fortunate to have good people in my ward who share some of my views and can support me through the hard times (whether they know they do it or not).  I also have a few shining examples of conservative/orthodox mormons who clearly don't agree with me on many things, but don't care either.  

 

It boils down to this: for most humans, if they don't feel safe and accepted when they go to church, they can't feel the Spirit.  And if they can't feel the Spirit, there is little incentive or benefit to coming.  Which is why we must be better about accepting all of our members, liberal or conservative, and making them feel at home and cared for in our social circles.  When we fail to make someone feel accepted, they will leave.  That's as much a fault of ours as it is of theirs.

 

This makes a lot of sense to me.  However, in any organization or group on this planet, there are going to be some people in that organization that will offend or push you away.  I realize that people in my ward and in the Church are imperfect and not let that get in the way.  Maybe it is easy for me since I'm naturally conservative.  I guess if the Church was filled with "mostly-liberals", the situation would be much more challenging.  :)

 

Brad O.

[Guest]

Of course there are semantic issues involved. What is actually meant by "liberal"? Like some of the stuff anatess was saying is liberal... What? I'm clearly not in sync with whatever she's thinking.

 

The definition of Liberal and Conservative is lost in American politics.  I snatch a few Rush Limbaugh's here and there and what he calls Liberal is really... just Democrats.  This becomes really hard on us foreign folks because the Democrat platform can change whereas Liberalism is supposed to be a definitive principle.  Both Liberalism and Conservatism are good principles.  Striking a balance between the two is what makes great government - and that perfect balance is also displayed in the Plan of Salvation.

 

There's a thread here a long while ago where somebody (was it Windseeker?) put out a list of "You must be a liberal if..." and I expanded on each and every one to show a lot of it is not really Liberal but simply Democrat... or... not-Republican.  I'll link to it if I manage to find it...

 

In any case... in America, Liberal and Conservative labels have become like Team Names... you align yourself with one and then cheer for it while boo-ing the other... when in reality, a person vascillates between Liberal and Conservative principles in life.

Edited December 10, 2014 by anatess