Contention

[estradling75]

My rule of thumb is: If someone says I am being rude, I try to check myself if I am wording my words properly. I try my best to apologize even if I don't think I was being rude because I did not have that intention and I do not wish to hurt others. If many people complain about me over a certain period of time, then I definitely need check myself even more because it is evident that I am doing something wrong. And yes, that's *my* opinion.

 

There is a second part...   The first part is (as you noted) that we need to be careful about being rude or giving offense.  I think all of us could do better at following Christ's example in this matter.

 

The second part is that we need to be careful about taking offense.  It is very very easy to take offense, to fill in the blanks and gaps with our own assumptions on what the other person "must have" meant and "must have intended"  When we do this we wrap ourselves up in our wounded pride and demand that the other repent to make us feel better.  That is bound to fail.  But Christ is also our example on this side.  What did he do when other hurt him mocked him and hung him on the cross?  He forgave them.  Can we do any less?

[Suzie]

The second part is that we need to be careful about taking offense.  It is very very easy to take offense, to fill in the blanks and gaps with our own assumptions on what the other person "must have" meant and "must have intended"  When we do this we wrap ourselves up in our wounded pride and demand that the other repent to make us feel better.  That is bound to fail.  But Christ is also our example on this side.  What did he do when other hurt him mocked him and hung him on the cross?  He forgave them.  Can we do any less?

 

Great point. I think it is important to ask clarification instead of automatically assuming bad intention, that's a good thing. Having said that, there are times when there is really no misunderstanding. I have read a few times posters here for example, calling others "liars" and other adjectives that I think are clearly a personal attack and shouldn't have room here.

 

I believe people who uses such adjectives to describe others do not know how to express themselves properly and they resort in personal attacks to be in control of the discussion. Sometimes, they are not even breaking any site rules but the condescending tone is evident. And these are the same posters having issues with other posters in a lot of threads, and definitely not a one time scenario.

 

I agree with your point about forgiving others, it is important and good but let's be careful not to mean that we should allow people to belittle others and our course of action should be telling the person receiving the bad treatment to just forgive. No, I believe the persons in question should do some self-analysis and try to rectify certain behaviors.

[The Folk Prophet]

we need to be careful about being rude or giving offense.  I think all of us could do better at following Christ's example in this matter.

 

Christ offended people all the time.

[Traveler]

Perhaps this quote from my fathere applies:

 

Are you part of the problem or are you part of the solution?

[estradling75]

Great point. I think it is important to ask clarification instead of automatically assuming bad intention, that's a good thing. Having said that, there are times when there is really no misunderstanding. I have read a few times posters here for example, calling others "liars" and other adjectives that I think are clearly a personal attack and shouldn't have room here.

 

I believe people who uses such adjectives to describe others do not know how to express themselves properly and they resort in personal attacks to be in control of the discussion. Sometimes, they are not even breaking any site rules but the condescending tone is evident. And these are the same posters having issues with other posters in a lot of threads, and definitely not a one time scenario.

 

I agree with your point about forgiving others, it is important and good but let's be careful not to mean that we should allow people to belittle others and our course of action should be telling the person receiving the bad treatment to just forgive. No, I believe the persons in question should do some self-analysis and try to rectify certain behaviors.

 

No disagreement, but from a practical stand point you can't make someone behave better...  From a practical stand point the only thing you can do is retrospection yourself (Lord is it I?), and forgive...  Anything else is out of your hands  

[Suzie]

No disagreement, but from a practical stand point you can't make someone behave better...  From a practical stand point the only thing you can do is retrospection yourself (Lord is it I?), and forgive...  Anything else is out of your hands  

 

 

Yes, that's why I mentioned self-analysis and change of behavior. We can't make someone to "play nice".

[Guest]

Christ offended people all the time.

 

You're not Jesus.

[estradling75]

I guess I am confused then...  If we can't control other people then how can we allow them in your statement below?

 

 

 

I agree with your point about forgiving others, it is important and good but let's be careful not to mean that we should allow people to belittle others and our course of action should be telling the person receiving the bad treatment to just forgive. No, I believe the persons in question should do some self-analysis and try to rectify certain behaviors.

 

 

I suppose we could try shouting them down...  But that adds to contention.     I

[Suzie]

I guess I am confused then...  If we can't control other people then how can we allow them in your statement below?

 

 

 

 

I suppose we could try shouting them down...  But that adds to contention.     I

 

Meaning that even though we cannot change people (people change themselves yada yada yada) does not mean we will become mere spectators if we see someone belittling another individual and reasoning: "Well, that's how he/she is and the person has to forgive them anyway".  We can try to make the person understand that the way they are treating others is wrong and how can affect people, etc. Sometimes it doesn't work as expected but we still have to try. In sites such as this one, have the moderators observing closely how members interact.

 

It is not news that quite a few posters left lds.net for a variety of reasons or they are not as active as before and one of the reasons of a few is the poor interaction/insults/belittling that sometimes occur, things that can be avoided and can be stopped.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Suzie

[estradling75]

Meaning that even though we cannot change people (people change themselves yada yada yada) does not mean we will become mere spectators if we see someone belittling another individual and reasoning: "Well, that's how he/she is and the person has to forgive them anyway".  We can try to make the person understand that the way they are treating others is wrong and how can affect people, etc. Sometimes it doesn't work as expected but we still have to try. In sites such as this one, have the moderators observing closely how members interact.

 

It is not news that quite a few posters left lds.net for a variety of reasons or they are not as active as before and one of the reasons of a few is the poor interaction/insults/belittling that sometimes occur, things that can be avoided and can be stopped.

 

So now you moving from general contention to this site...

 

First of all people come and go all the time...  We don't always know why.  You seem to be claiming special information on to why some have left.  I know Pam is always interested in those details.  Please PM her with all facts you have on the individuals you are talking about.  Because she can act on information she does not have.

 

And that holds true for all the mod staff.  Did you know that this site has a report a post function?  Did you know that it is very rarely used?  People might complain about this site but when given the tools to do something about it they rarely do.

 

No people might say well the mods are on the forum they should just know...  Sure sometimes...  Mods are human, sometimes we are not really following threads, sometimes our attention is elsewhere, sometimes we didn't even realize it was meant that way... And sometimes we are too close to the discussion.

 

So if you think this post has cross the line report it.  Otherwise you are basically requiring mods to be mind readers...

 

 

Now back to the more general issue...  The Word of God both cuts to the very center... It also binds the broken hearted.  But I have never see it do both to the same person at the same time.  Just because someone is feeling hurt doesn't mean the Word of God was not spoken, just because someone is feeling better doesn't mean the Word of God was spoken.  If we are trying our best to follow God that means sometimes people will be offended and hurt.  We don't like it, we don't want it, but it doesn't automatically follow that it was wrong.

[Suzie]

So now you moving from general contention to this site...

 

Is there a problem with it? Hope not.

 

 

 

First of all people come and go all the time...  We don't always know why.  You seem to be claiming special information on to why some have left.  I know Pam is always interested in those details.  Please PM her with all facts you have on the individuals you are talking about.  Because she can act on information she does not have.

 

You mean, you want me to tell Pam something that a few people confided in me? Why should I do that? No, I cannot.

 

 

 

Did you know that this site has a report a post function?  Did you know that it is very rarely used?  People might complain about this site but when given the tools to do something about it they rarely do.

 

I agree to a certain extent. The point I was mentioning yesterday with a moderator is that sometimes the people in question are not breaking any site rules, it is the way  they post, the kind of adjectives they choose to use that belittles people, insulting and yet not directly. And even though I am aware this can be open to "interpretation", when you have a few people on a thread taking "offense", it is something to think about. It does not happen to me (I only got once a psycho-threatening PM because of a thread. I did not reply to it and I reported it and yet the poster continued posting and continues posting like nothing ever happened) but seeing happening to others it bugs me a bit. Therefore, should we use the report button even though the poster in question technically did not break any site rules?

 

Second, many times the moderators are in full participation on a particular thread which is good but sometimes they are too close to the discussion at hand and I have mentioned this in the past to another moderator so no, I am not here just "complaining", these are things I have discussed privately in the past.

 

 

 

The Word of God both cuts to the very center... It also binds the broken hearted.  But I have never see it do both to the same person at the same time.  Just because someone is feeling hurt doesn't mean the Word of God was not spoken, just because someone is feeling better doesn't mean the Word of God was spoken.  If we are trying our best to follow God that means sometimes people will be offended and hurt.  We don't like it, we don't want it, but it doesn't automatically follow that it was wrong.

 

I understand. I know, we WILL offend...but we should try better. We shouldn't solve everything by "Yes, we can offend, deal with it, forgive and move on".

Edited March 21, 2015 by Suzie

[estradling75]

Is there a problem with it? Hope not

.

 

That was how I read you post...  Perhaps I misunderstood.

 

 

 

You mean, you want me to tell Pam something that a few people confided in me? Why should I do that? No, I cannot.

 

 

I can understand and respect your desire to maintain confidentially.  However I hope you understand that we (Pam) can't do anything to address the issue you brought up without some details.  

 

 

 

I agree to a certain extent. The point I was mentioning yesterday with a moderator is that sometimes the people in question are not breaking any site rules, it is the way  they post, the kind of adjectives they choose to use that belittles people, insulting and yet not directly. And even though I am aware this can be open to "interpretation", when you have a few people on a thread taking "offense", it is something to think about. It does not happen to me but seeing happening to others it bugs me a bit. Therefore, should we use the report button even though the poster in question technically did not break any site rules?

 

 

Yes report...  Understand that you as a user might never see the results of such a report.  There might not be anything that happens.  But we mods have talked to people about their posting styles before. (With various level of success of various lengths of time)

 

 

 

Second, many times the moderators are in full participation on a particular thread which is good but sometimes they are too close to the discussion at hand and I have mentioned this in the past to another moderator so no, I am not here just "complaining", these are things I have discussed privately in the past.

 

 

Moderators are human, moderators make mistakes, moderator posts that a person deems questionable should be reported like any other post.

 

Long standing policy of this site is mods in the middle of whatever event goes down stay out of the moderating of such events

 

 

I understand. I know, we WILL offend...but we should try better. We shouldn't solve everything by "Yes, we can offend, deal with it, forgive and move on".

 

Which is why when I first brought it up I said it was the second half.  I can't control you, you can't control me.  I can only choose how I present my ideas and how I respond to others.    When I see two others interacting should its really easy to side with the group I think is both right and wounded.  However one side can be right and the other side wounded and then it is much less clear whom I should help.

[Guest]

This is pretty much how I'm feeling:

 

[pam]

Great point. I think it is important to ask clarification instead of automatically assuming bad intention, that's a good thing. Having said that, there are times when there is really no misunderstanding. I have read a few times posters here for example, calling others "liars" and other adjectives that I think are clearly a personal attack and shouldn't have room here.

 

I believe people who uses such adjectives to describe others do not know how to express themselves properly and they resort in personal attacks to be in control of the discussion. Sometimes, they are not even breaking any site rules but the condescending tone is evident. And these are the same posters having issues with other posters in a lot of threads, and definitely not a one time scenario.

 

I agree with your point about forgiving others, it is important and good but let's be careful not to mean that we should allow people to belittle others and our course of action should be telling the person receiving the bad treatment to just forgive. No, I believe the persons in question should do some self-analysis and try to rectify certain behaviors.

 

If one feels that any of these things, especially being called a liar, is done or you feel is offensive then please please please report it.  Right now about the only reported posts are done by moderators.  And many times without one realizing it, it does fall within rule #3,

 

3. Personal attacks, name calling, flaming, and judgments against other members will not be tolerated.

[Latter Days Guy]

This is pretty much how I'm feeling:

 

This looks like she's saying "Meow!"   :)

[Treble.clef]

You're not Jesus.

 

I agree with/appreciate both The Folk Prophet and Eowyn's comment. Christ did offend people all the time, yet he was/is perfect. Christ is an example to us. He spoke up. On the other hand, we can't really hold a candle to Christ. We aren't perfect, we did not perform the Atonement.

 

I think the topic of contention has grey areas. Other people may say no, it's always black and white. Maybe the black  and white offend the grey. No, the grey offends the black. No, the black clearly offends the grey. No, the white offends only the grey, but never the black.

 

If the spirit prompts you to say something, then you should say it, regardless of possible hurt feelings. Let the Holy Ghost be your guide. I don't think the spirit will lead us astray.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Treble.clef

[Treble.clef]

If we have the guts to share something on the internet, should we also have the guts to take the responses?

[David13]

I have to agree that we should not be easily offended.  People are going to take issue with our opinions.  They in effect are calling us liars, misinformed, all that.  That should not offend us, if we believe we are right.

And there is such a thing as being too sensitive.  At taking offense at something that was not meant to be offensive.  We should not have such thin skin, not if we know we are in the right. 

Now what are all these secrets that are not being shared?  I know I'm new here, but I think I have a right to know all the secrets.  I won't tell anyone, your secrets are safe with me.

Sensitivity.  Don't over do it.

William F Buckley Jr once said he may have been too sensitive.  As he had determined to never again ask a gentleman to go sailing with him, as that individual had not asked for the ketchup in a polite enough manner.

That is wrong, particularly amongst sailors.

dc

[char713]

Got it. Shant put myself "out there" again with church members. Big mistake.

[Guest]

Well. . . I'm wondering if those who post on forums are a different breed. Or maybe it's just keyboard courage. I can't imagine most members I know IRL being so brash in their criticism. A few said really hurtful, mostly ignorant and thoughtless things when we were going through fertility treatment, but for the most part I found a lot of love and support with LDS people I confided in. 

[pam]

There are many threads that I should never ever participate in.  Mostly because I'm too passionate about it or have too firm of an opinion on them.  I then get upset when people disagree with me which I shouldn't.  

 

But it's so hard not to.  

[The Folk Prophet]

You're not Jesus.

Was this to my point? I don't feel like this was my point.

[Treble.clef]

Imperfect, opinionated, anonymous, diverse, chosen online versions of Church memembers/brothers and sisters/internet strangers with keyboard courage.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Treble.clef

[Crypto]

Well. . . I'm wondering if those who post on forums are a different breed. Or maybe it's just keyboard courage. I can't imagine most members I know IRL being so brash in their criticism. A few said really hurtful, mostly ignorant and thoughtless things when we were going through fertility treatment, but for the most part I found a lot of love and support with LDS people I confided in. 

Normally I keep to myself a bit in IRL, and don't go out of my way to bring up controversial topic's...but if someone starts talking to me about it i'll let them know where I stand. Things only become a problem when the next response becomes a criticism of a viewpoint. The only difference is that people seem more likely to bring up controversial topics online, and often the people most interested in responding also have strong opinions.

[char713]

Except for when the topic is "controversial" only because it is personal, not because it is wrong or otherwise contrary to the views of the church. If and when I ever encounter such a scenario, of someone opening up about tender feelings, (whether wisely or not) the one thing I know I would never do is tell them how they ought to feel instead.