Intellectualism welcome?

[Guest MormonGator]

 

Honest questions are always welcome, when appropriate. (There are inappropriate times to ask even honest questions.) It's too easy to ask a leading or otherwise dishonest question and then retreat to a claim that it's an honest question when someone calls you out on it. This is what I understood TFP's point to be, and I agree.

 Wow! We were just talking about this in my priesthood class. It was great, as it usually is. 

 

Vort is 100% correct on this. Honest questions are welcome here. I had some honest questions when I was about to convert, I asked them, and they were answered. I moved on. I still have questions, in particular with the churches view on race. I ask questions when I think of them (Did Smith Jr hold racist views? Why did the church wait so long to ordain African-Americans?). 

LadyGator did too. Even after we both read the Book of Mormon. We are both annoying, skeptical New Englanders at heart. 

Edited September 28, 2015 by MormonGator

[hagoth]

...Did Smith Jr hold racist views?... 

This actually merits a separate thread.

[Guest MormonGator]

This actually merits a separate thread.

 Yes, I agree I was just using it as an example on how the church is actually quite open with it's past. 

[Catlick]

I'm so glad to read all of these responses, they really do help me clarify how much I'm relying on intellectual knowledge vs heart knowledge. And I agree that sometimes questions are really just veiled challenges, and I hate that. Rhetorical arguments are mean spirited and dishonest. Which is exactly why I came here to ask my questions (and continue to do so!)--there never seems to be an appropriate time to ask about the WoW, or temple garments, or why sealings are necessary, etc. I don't want to offend my close friends, as I value their friendship too much. I would never ask at Sacrament Meeting or in Doctrine and Covenants class for fear of sounding like one of those who is couching a criticism in an "innocent" question. So I come here just to lay out my honest thoughts and questions and get direct answers. Thank you all so much! This is an invaluable space for me to learn.

[Blackmarch]

Does it strike anyone else that "there's nothing wrong with asking questions" is an oversimplification? Is it not very clear that asking question can be a very, very powerful tool of the Devil, and there can, very much, be something wrong with asking questions? Does that statement not require a conditional, "as long as..." to be complete? As in, why are they asking the question? To learn, or to tear down the church? To humbly seek guidance, or to subtly destroy faith?

 

Is not asking hard question, actually, a very convincing debate tactic that usually has nothing to do with an actual query, but is only phrased that way for the sake of civility?

 

To use this very thought as an answer, if I were to state, "Elder Ballard is wrong when he says there's nothing wrong with asking questions," then I'm openly countering an apostle (for the sake of argument, let's say that's black-and-white "wrong"), so if I instead phrase it as, "Why would Elder Ballard say that there's nothing wrong with asking questions when it can obviously be a tool of Satan to do so?" -- then now being a question, suddenly nothing is wrong now? But isn't the point being made exactly the same?

 

Please note: Everything stated above being pure question, is my point any less that had I not carefully crafted it so?

 

questions are like a field that has young wheat and tares. You can't pull out the tares till later after things have had time to ripen, which has given the wheat time to grow and gain strength as well as the tares to show their real colors and form.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Just a few of the well known examples.

Bruce R McConkie

Neal A Maxwell

James E Talmage

 

Doctrine and Covenants 93:36

The glory of God is intelligence...

[The Folk Prophet]

there never seems to be an appropriate time to ask about the WoW, or temple garments, or why sealings are necessary, etc.

 

The reason why these things are "issues" of sorts to ask about it because no one really knows the answers. We only know what has been commanded. We obey on faith. Something parts are easier to explain, but even those parts are not concrete answers. We are asked to live on faith, and for the "intellectual", oft times that is no answer at all.

[Guest MormonGator]

 

Just a few of the well known examples.

Bruce R McConkie

Neal A Maxwell

James E Talmage

 

Doctrine and Covenants 93:36

The glory of God is intelligence...

 

 Yup. When people say "Oh, you mormons aren't intellectuals" these are the three I think of too. 

[Jane_Doe]

I'm so glad to read all of these responses, they really do help me clarify how much I'm relying on intellectual knowledge vs heart knowledge. And I agree that sometimes questions are really just veiled challenges, and I hate that. Rhetorical arguments are mean spirited and dishonest. Which is exactly why I came here to ask my questions (and continue to do so!)--there never seems to be an appropriate time to ask about the WoW, or temple garments, or why sealings are necessary, etc. I don't want to offend my close friends, as I value their friendship too much. I would never ask at Sacrament Meeting or in Doctrine and Covenants class for fear of sounding like one of those who is couching a criticism in an "innocent" question. So I come here just to lay out my honest thoughts and questions and get direct answers. Thank you all so much! This is an invaluable space for me to learn.

 

I agree with you that sometimes there never seems to a good time to ask questions while in church ("there's no such thing as good timing" is a commonly used expression of mine).  But if somethings really bugging you, go ahead and ask, either here, in church, or your RL friends.  

 

Taking a swing at your specific questions myself--

 

WoW-  if you're asking "why is tea bad for you", then I don't know (we don't know everything).  Maybe one day science will figure it out (like with smoking) but in the mean time for me it's just a matter of faith, even if I don't don't understand the why's.

 

Temple garments -- I'm not sure your question here.

 

Sealings -- there's actually a thread going right now on that very topic :)

[Ironhold]

About tea - 

 

Back when I had my wisdom teeth removed, the oral surgeon offered me a bit of advice. 

 

In the event that the gauze I was given wasn't enough to stop my sockets from weeping blood, then the best course of action would be to take a wet tea bag (black tea, like what people normally drink) and hold it in my mouth over each individual socket that was still giving me problems. 

 

Why?

 

The tannin in the tea, he noted, would cauterize the socket. 

 

After 36 hours straight of having my sockets weeping, I finally broke down and tried it. It worked. So think about that next time you go to have a glass of black tea. 

 

**

 

As far as caffeine itself goes, Energy Fiend.com is your friend. The website, now known as "Caffeine Informer.com", lists food and beverages by their average serving size and the amount of caffeine in said serving size. 

 

For example, an 8 fluid ounce serving of chocolate milk or hot cocoa contains 5 milligrams of caffeine, or .6 mg / floz. 

 

By comparison, an 8 fluid ounce serving of instant coffee contains 57 milligrams of caffeine, or 7.1 mg / floz. 

 

Brewed coffee? That 8 fluid ounce serving comes in at 163 milligrams of caffeine, 20.4 mg / floz. 

 

NutriSystem's Energi-ZING shake? That same 8 ounces runs 200 and 25, respectively.

 

An 8 ounce of Redline energy drink and Redline Princess runs 250 and 31.2, respectively.

 

Redline Xtreme? 316 and 39.5, respectively, for 8 fluid ounces. 

 

 

So let's do the math:

 

*Instant coffee has 10X the caffeine content of chocolate milk or hot cocoa

 

*Brewed coffee is about 3X as potent as instant coffee

 

*NutriSystem's offering is 40X as potent as chocolate milk

 

*Redline is a heart attack waiting to happen. 

 

 

edit - 

 

The 8 Most Dangerous Caffeinated Products

 

#1 - Powdered Caffeine. 

 

If a person is at this point, then IMHO they may as well pre-plan their funeral. 

Edited September 29, 2015 by Ironhold

[estradling75]

Another aspect...

 

You can have a whole list of reasonable, rational, explanations for why it is a good idea to do something (or not do). Then someone comes along an with a new study that says something different...  Or someone dissects your reasons and concludes you say "x" but you really mean "y"  So they can "x" as long as "y" handled differently.

 

That would be an entirely rational and Intellectual approach.

 

However if we accept that we are here to do what God commands. (which LDS do) Then when God commands "x" if we try to rationalize it, Intellectualize it, we run the very real risk of saying... Well God said "x", but quite clearly he really meant "y."  And by so doing we rationalize and intellectualize correcting God...  Which is just a bad idea.

[Average Joe]

In your experience, is this reluctance to admit intellectualism among ward members typical? Do you see it changing anytime soon? While I love so much about the LDS church, this scares me a little. There are so many who have been excommunicated for their thoughts and open speech that it seems a bit draconian to me. So I'm hesitating furthering any talk of baptism with the missionaries until I feel that new voices and perspectives are welcome.

 

lol, not so much in my Ward - we're not the sharpest knives in the drawer if you know what I mean but intellectualism (along with most other kinds of isms) is frowned on by many of the of the Pharisees here!  

[jerome1232]

 

The 8 Most Dangerous Caffeinated Products

 

#1 - Powdered Caffeine. 

 

If a person is at this point, then IMHO they may as well pre-plan their funeral. 

 

 

Oh what a load of FUD! They show these massive bulk supplies and talk about how much caffeine is in them. It's not something you take straight. Drinking a gallon of liquid caffeine isn't a safety hazard, it's a Darwin award. It's something you dissolve in a drink. Like maybe you are Mormon and don't drink black or green tea but you still want a little kick out of your beverage.

[Ironhold]

Oh what a load of FUD! They show these massive bulk supplies and talk about how much caffeine is in them. It's not something you take straight. Drinking a gallon of liquid caffeine isn't a safety hazard, it's a Darwin award. It's something you dissolve in a drink. Like maybe you are Mormon and don't drink black or green tea but you still want a little kick out of your beverage.

 

Read the link. 

 

There have been multiple fatalities stemming from people using powdered caffeine. The situation's getting so bad that the FDA is now getting involved. 

 

edit - The FDA's been investigating the safety of added caffeine since 2013. The Military TImes has been asking about the safety of energy drinks since at least 2012, and in 2013 they were asking about the safety of added caffeine in food items. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by Ironhold

[Blackmarch]

Oh what a load of FUD! They show these massive bulk supplies and talk about how much caffeine is in them. It's not something you take straight. Drinking a gallon of liquid caffeine isn't a safety hazard, it's a Darwin award. It's something you dissolve in a drink. Like maybe you are Mormon and don't drink black or green tea but you still want a little kick out of your beverage.

Uh pure caffiene is extremely potent. Dunno what the actual caffiene content for the powdered stuff is tho.

[Ironhold]

Uh pure caffiene is extremely potent. Dunno what the actual caffiene content for the powdered stuff is tho.

Plus we've got the question of just what people are adding it to. 

 

It's one thing if they're using it in products that don't have any to begin with. But I don't doubt the prospect that some of these folks are using it in items that already have caffeine simply because what's present is "not enough". 

[jerome1232]

The link is what I'm talking about. Now now, just to clarify I don't disagree that caffeine can be a dangerous drug. But simply noting that there exists a gallon of it then talking about how it can kill 7 people is simply FUD. Fearmongering. 

After you get past the fearmongering they get to some more reasonable stuff, like the fact that it takes on average about 9k mg's of the stuff to overdose. Several of the examples of people od'ing are clear suicides.

Look at the ridiculous amounts of caffeine being ingested by the people on their documented cases list. Those people are nuts. They even note that od'ing on Tylenol is more common than od'ing on caffeine.




 

[mordorbund]

Why are we suddenly discussing caffeine? Was that one of Catlick's questions?

[Guest]

Why are we suddenly discussing caffeine? Was that one of Catlick's questions?

 

Not really.  She just mentioned that the WoW is one of the topics she wants to delve into through intellectual means.

[jerome1232]

Why are we suddenly discussing caffeine? Was that one of Catlick's questions?

Because internet

[askandanswer]

The reason why these things are "issues" of sorts to ask about it because no one really knows the answers. We only know what has been commanded. We obey on faith. Something parts are easier to explain, but even those parts are not concrete answers. We are asked to live on faith, and for the "intellectual", oft times that is no answer at all.

 

I sometimes think that in addition to the universal, overarching, eternal laws, to which even God is subject, and which therefore form the basis of many of the commandments He gives us, one of the other rationales underlying His commandments is that perhaps God has preferences, and as our Creator, He is entitled to apply His apply preferences to us. No scriptural basis for this idea, just something that I occasionally think about.

Edited October 1, 2015 by askandanswer