NightSG

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2 hours ago, Eowyn said:

This is an excellent point, for those looking for a trophy wife; which, though most won't admit it, a great number of single men are.

And a lot of women are looking to be trophy wives.  Including some who aren't even any good at the "look pretty" part of it.

When I have a 5' tall, ~200lb (and, as I later found out, incapable of having children) woman ask me how much I make before we even get to last names, it's pretty obvious she's looking for a caretaker, not a husband.  Turns out she was approaching every guy at that conference with the same set of questions, and "turned down" (not that he was exactly heartbroken about it unless his uncontrollable giggling was an odd way of showing it) a guy who's making around $130k after he made it far enough in the questioning for her to find out that he would expect his next wife to either work full time or take care of the two kids he already had without benefit of a nanny.

1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

None of us can resolve that pain.  I wish we could.  We have covenanted to bear one another's burdens, so we should at least try to help...I think listening without judging would be a great start, unfortunately that is not human nature.

I read this big book that was all about doing things that aren't really "human nature."  They called it a quad combo.

I'm not really sure, though, that human nature is universally what we assume it is.  It's often used as an excuse for judging and dismissive behavior, but if that's the case, then what is it that causes some people to act in direct contravention of that nature?  It's not universally religion; two of the most generous, caring, understanding people I've ever met were Atheists.  (Granted, plenty of the most annoying twits I've met were Atheists, but IMO, that's more a function of whether they're trying to force their lack of belief on others.)   It's in my nature to at least want to fully understand the nature of the issue when someone I care about is hurting.  Perhaps that's a function of my Methodist upbringing, but more likely it's a result of having been in a lot of physical and spiritual pain for a long list of reasons that I've always had trouble expressing; if my experience can help them to lessen their pain, then I want to help them avoid at least some of what I've been through.  Besides, if I can understand the problem they're having, maybe it will even benefit me later. Proverbs 3:13-18

1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

So if I could talk to the young lady who wrote that article, I would tell her that instead of writing blog posts and complaining publicly about the Brethren, who can't help her really.

There's the problem; they can.

Trying is often more help than the one trying knows.  Just a sincere desire and attempt to understand will make one feel valued and validated.  Instead, she, and many of us, get the trite boilerplate responses and then get shuffled off to yet another calling to "lose yourself in work."  Sometimes it seems like bishops' offices should have "arbeit macht frei" carved over the doors.

I tried losing myself in work a few times.  Once even to the point of leaving a good paying desk job to swing a mop for minimum wage, in the hope that I'd be too busy to think about the broken engagement that led to it.  It didn't help; instead of just being depressed, I ended up depressed, in debt, and exhausted to the point of having a long list of health issues from working long shifts in lousy conditions 6-7 days a week trying to make enough to clear the debt.  Ultimately, working the pain away is a lot like drinking it away; at best, you wake up with a hangover and the same list of problems still needing to be dealt with.  More often, you add to the list of problems.

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I mean what is it she wants them to say?

How about "Tell me what you're feeling and what you need?"  Anything less dismissive than just reciting some bit of "wisdom" she's heard a thousand times before and then none-too-subtly trying to get rid of her.  How about "Mind if I sit here?" next time she's in the midst of the Standard Singles Buffer Zone of empty seats in a meeting?  Maybe even "If you think a blessing might help, I've got plenty of time."

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I would counsel her to take her pain and anger to the Lord.  Talk to Him directly and privately.

I'm quite sure she has.  I know I've read the Bible many times looking for answers throughout my life.  I keep a spare set of Scriptures by my bed on the off chance that the next time I reach for them, something in there might make a difference.  I've read detailed treatises on I and II Thessalonians and Galatians, and several on various parts of the Old Testament thinking maybe a different perspective would show me an answer I didn't see on my own.  Psalm 6 sounds way too familiar, but it's somewhat lacking in answers.

Edited by NightSG

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5 hours ago, NightSG said:

 

NIghtSG, I was going to respond to some of your comments, but I changed my mind.  I don't want to argue with you.  I think you misunderstood my intent.  I only meant to listen and validate your feelings, and share something that had been helpful to me.  I think the Internet is not the best place for this conversation.  If I were talking to you in person, I could just listen, and validate....that's harder to do in writing.  

I hope you will consider that I am not the enemy, and if you misunderstood me (you did), could it be you are also misunderstanding the Brethren?  

Edited by LiterateParakeet

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13 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

Real sad state of affairs if a great number of single men are just looking for a trophy wife... real sad. A marriage based on superficial thinking is one starting out on a sandy foundation, and you can ask any primary child what type of man that is.

...

What happens to a trophy "spouse" relationship over time? Does it stand up if the "supposed" outer beauty is gone? 

Especially if it's Mormon men. They should know better. The Lord looks on the heart, and we should all learn to do that too.

Of course you should be attracted to someone enough to be happy married to them. But you don't need a supermodel for that (what a ridiculous term, "supermodel").

Long term attraction isn't much about the physical anyway. I think a warm, loving person with a righteous heart is the most attractive person in the long term. And there is nothing more ugly in the long term than a selfish, mean, or wicked person.

I had the amazing privilege of being sealed by Elder Eyring (my wife is related). He told me that in the resurrection my wife would be an amazingly beautiful woman. (I can't remember the actual wording, unfortunately.) I have to think this will be the case for everyone - we'll all be beautiful in every way.

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1 hour ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Somehow I missed this thread, a lot of boohooing and self pity going on here....WOW.

Bottomline, its you not them see a shrink and fix yourself

And therein lies the reason midsingles are leaving the Church in droves.

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5 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Making Exmo conventions a veritable gold mine of dating opportunities . . .

Probably.  Might have to check that out.

OTOH, about 65-75% of the inactive singles I've talked to aren't likely going to those, as they intend to be active again once they're no longer single.

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The demographics problem is very real issue for single women. But, outside of plural marriage I don't know how a society with more women than men can solve that problem?

If plural marriage is re-instated (and I'm not hoping for that) perhaps a Relief Society committee or ward council could match up all the singles on a monthly basis to keep the problem in check ;) ???

I once was campaigning in Washington State for the US Senate and a large group of conservative Republicans asked me if I had multiple wives because I was a Mormon. I replied that I only had one wife, but that I had calculated out how many I could afford. After a minute of silence one of them asked how many that was? I replied "slightly less than one." There was a good laugh and the rest of the night was very cordial.

In all seriousness though, every time I see a single man or woman in the church who I know would love to be happily married my heart aches for them. Their struggle is difficult and I would wish it upon nobody. I pray God will bless them because there is little else I can do to help fill those empty chambers of the heart.

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6 hours ago, zil said:

Holy cow!  Can they / everyone, not see the backwardness of that?

Hard to consider it backward to disassociate from people who treat one as inferior and undesirable because of one's status.  If anything, it seems backward to want to associate with those people once one's status changes. 

Still desperately wanting to play with the popular kids after being shunned by them isn't exactly an indicator of good mental health.

Edited by NightSG

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7 hours ago, NightSG said:

Hard to consider it backward to disassociate from people who treat one as inferior and undesirable because of one's status.  If anything, it seems backward to want to associate with those people once one's status changes. 

Still desperately wanting to play with the popular kids after being shunned by them isn't exactly an indicator of good mental health.

No the backwardness is thinking you can leave... find a mate among the unbelievers (because you just left the believers remember) and then come back...  Possible sure but that is not what the wise person would bet on  because that really stacks the odds against you

Edited by estradling75

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7 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

No the backwardness is thinking you can leave... find a mate among the unbelievers (because you just left the believers remember) and then come back...  Possible sure but that is not what the wise person would bet on  because that really stacks the odds against you

The odds are already stacked against the men in my area; three semi-active mid-single men, and two semi-active mid-single women.  One of those women is moving away, and the other one refuses to date, to the point where the bishop has given up trying.  At this point, I and one of the other men have literally asked out and/or dated every even remotely active single female member within 10 years of our ages within 50 miles.

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4 minutes ago, NightSG said:

The odds are already stacked against the men in my area; three semi-active mid-single men, and two semi-active mid-single women.  One of those women is moving away, and the other one refuses to date, to the point where the bishop has given up trying.  At this point, I and one of the other men have literally asked out and/or dated every even remotely active single female member within 10 years of our ages within 50 miles.

Right... which means the Singles have to exercise their agency to do something... After all Faith is an Active thing not a passive...  I see three paths from what you describe... they can move to an area with a greater concentration of singles... Or they can take their chances among the non members...  Or they can take comfort in the Lord promises that "no blessing will be denied"  All of these have potential "issues" depending on the individual in question.  Which one of the three (or other options that I don't know of) should be a matter of much prayer and study for that individual..  But if there are any singles just sitting their waiting for the Lord (or the Church) to wave a magic wand to fix the problem then they really don't understand the point of Faith and Agency.

 

 

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28 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Right... which means the Singles have to exercise their agency to do something... After all Faith is an Active thing not a passive...  I see three paths from what you describe... they can move to an area with a greater concentration of singles... Or they can take their chances among the non members...  Or they can take comfort in the Lord promises that "no blessing will be denied"  All of these have potential "issues" depending on the individual in question.  Which one of the three (or other options that I don't know of) should be a matter of much prayer and study for that individual..  But if there are any singles just sitting their waiting for the Lord (or the Church) to wave a magic wand to fix the problem then they really don't understand the point of Faith and Agency.

 

 

Lots of Filipinos........

 

..... need visas.

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1 hour ago, NightSG said:

The odds are already stacked against the men in my area; three semi-active mid-single men, and two semi-active mid-single women.  One of those women is moving away, and the other one refuses to date, to the point where the bishop has given up trying.  At this point, I and one of the other men have literally asked out and/or dated every even remotely active single female member within 10 years of our ages within 50 miles.

Sounds like you need to move to green pastures

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8 hours ago, NightSG said:

Hard to consider it backward to disassociate from people who treat one as inferior and undesirable because of one's status.  If anything, it seems backward to want to associate with those people once one's status changes. 

Still desperately wanting to play with the popular kids after being shunned by them isn't exactly an indicator of good mental health.

The backwardness is leaving activity in Christ's church and thinking that he will somehow reward you with a faithful spouse and that somehow after all that time away you will still have the spiritual strength to return to him and be no worse off.  The backwardness is thinking that being unfaithful is somehow going to make those people who don't treat you well better (as opposed to staying around and being the best disciple of Christ you can be and helping them to improve).  The backwardness is thinking that the problem is marital status as opposed to discipleship no matter what ("And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;").

Here's a story which pounds that principle home.  It's not about the challenge of singlehood, but about the principle of obedience no matter what (emphasis in bold is mine):

Quote

And then the 1890 Manifesto was announced. At the time, Lorena was traveling with her husband to yet another home for their family. When she heard the news, she recalled,

My husband came to our tent and told me about it, and my feelings were past description. I had gone into that order of marriage solely . . . because I believed God had commanded his people to do so, and it had been such a sacrifice to enter it, and live it as I thought God wanted me to. And as I thought about it, it seemed impossible that the Lord would go back on a principal which had caused so much sacrifice, heartache, and trial before one could conquer one’s carnal self, and live on that higher plane, and love one’s neighbor as one’s self. My husband walked out without saying a word, and as he walked away I thought, Oh yes, it is easy for you, you can go home to your other family and be happy with her, while I must be like Hagar, sent away.

My anguish was inexpressible, and a dense darkness took hold of my mind. I thot that if the Lord and the church athorities had gone back on that principle, there was nothing to any part of the gospel. I fancied I could see my self and my children, and many other splendid women and their families turned adrift, and our only purpose in entering it, had been to more fully serve the Lord. I sank down on our bedding and wished in my anguish that the earth would open and take me and my children in. The darkness seemed impenetrable.

All at once I heard a voice and felt a most powerful presence. The voice said, “Why this is no more unreasonable than the requirement the Lord made of Abraham when he commanded him to offer up his son Isaac, and when the Lord sees that you are willing to obey in all things the trial shall be removed.”

There was a light whose brightness cannot be described which filled my soul, and I was so filled with joy, peace, and happiness that I felt that no matter whatever should come to me in all my future life, I could never feel sad again. If the people of the whole world had been gathered together trying with all their power to comfort me, they could not compare with the powerful unseen Presence which came to me on that occasion.

And as soon as my husband came back I told him what a glorious presence had been there, and what I had heard. He said, “I knew that I could not say a word to comfort you, so I went to a patch of willows, and asked the Lord to send a comforter.[”]

Remember, I was there until 34, and then married for 7 years to a non-member who eventually joined the church, and though he's passed, I believe he is continuing on the path of discipleship.  And the key thing I learned from that is that it's not about marital status, it's about discipleship - willing, happy, nothing-wavering discipleship.

Edited by zil

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1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

 they can move to an area with a greater concentration of singles...

Not an option for any of the men here due to custody issues.  One has primary custody and can't move farther than an adjacent county, the other and I would lose too much visitation time.

36 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Lots of Filipinos........

..... need visas.

I'm only 40.  It'll be at least another 15 years before I'm old enough for some 19 year old Filipina to fall in love-at-first-email with me.

 

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3 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Not an option for any of the men here due to custody issues.  One has primary custody and can't move farther than an adjacent county, the other and I would lose too much visitation time.

I'm only 40.  It'll be at least another 15 years before I'm old enough for some 19 year old Filipina to fall in love-at-first-email with me.

 

Now see... you always have an excuse for everything... that's why you're single.  :P

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1 hour ago, NightSG said:

Not an option for any of the men here due to custody issues.  One has primary custody and can't move farther than an adjacent county, the other and I would lose too much visitation time.

What part of " All of these have potential "issues" depending on the individual in question" was unclear?  

How does that negate the need for an individual to get on their knees before the Lord and prayerfully consider how to resolve their problems?

Edited by estradling75

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1 hour ago, NightSG said:

I'm only 40.  It'll be at least another 15 years before I'm old enough for some 19 year old Filipina to fall in love-at-first-email with me.

LOL

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Guest

@NightSG,

I've been reading this thread with some curiosity.  I didn't like the attitude or tone or even hypocrisy of "Stephanie's" article you linked to in the OP.  But most of this discussion has been about how you're handling singleness (?singledom?singlehood?).  And it looks like you're handling it as you can handle it.

Who's that pretty little gal on your arm in your avatar? 

12 hours ago, NightSG said:

Hard to consider it backward to disassociate from people who treat one as inferior and undesirable because of one's status.  If anything, it seems backward to want to associate with those people once one's status changes. 

Still desperately wanting to play with the popular kids after being shunned by them isn't exactly an indicator of good mental health.

This ^^^^ gives me pause.  I didn't know there was any "shunning" towards singles.

 

Edited by Guest

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It may sound like a joke, but one 22 year old LDS Filipina on my Facebook was flirting pretty hard, right up until the first date with an obese, socially awkward 58 year old American visiting Quezon City on business.  Then suddenly she'd found her soul mate.  She had a ring on the second date.

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17 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Who's that pretty little gal on your arm in your avatar? 

That would be one of the ones who won't date me because I'm not a RM.  At the moment she's angry with me for "marking territory" because I hugged her in front of some guy she's apparently interested in.  Never mind that it was just where we happened to be when she said she was about to head out, or that if that's marking territory, I've claimed half the midsingle women in north central Texas.

Quote

This ^^^^ gives me pause.  I didn't know there was any "shunning" towards singles.

Not active shunning, but it doesn't take much observation to note that the three divorced men in Sacrament meeting are the ones sitting among swaths of empty chairs, often each with a row to himself while people are dragging out more chairs at the back rather than sit in those rows.

We used to sit together most of the time, but decided to spread out and see if anybody ever got the hint.

Same thing with most non-Sunday activities; we all just get "forgotten" when people are planning a get together.  

Edited by NightSG

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Wow would you like some cheese with that whine?

 

Sounds like moving is out of the question this is me reading between the lines due to custody issues. 

What have you done to make yourself more desirable to the opposite sex? Hitting the gym? Successful in your career? Higher education?

Work on yourself and the ladies will come. Call me crazy but a single 40 yo in shape successful, educated, cultured, righteous priesthood holder ought to be able to nail down a GF anywhere.

 

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