Converts who leave the Church.

[Traveler]

18 hours ago, An Investigator said:

I have been a member of the Church for a year on Monday and I love it!  I have a brilliant ward, I've met some lovely friends and I really get involved in things.

Most Importantly though is my life has changed because of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  I have a very strong testimony of the truth of the Gospel.

Anyway, I have been chatting to a girl who lives near me, recent convert of 6 months and tonight she told me she has left the Church.   Why do people think new converts leave? Do you think I have just been really lucky in my ward? Do you think there is anything wards can do to stop new converts leaving?

 

A study funded by the LDS Church found that most individuals join (or return to) a church for fellowship and friend connections.  In contrast, most individuals leaving a church do so because they have not made friendship connections.

It may be a surprise to many because they assume religion attracts mostly those looking for spirituality and connection to G-d but the reality is that empirical worldly connections come first.  Before we wonder too much over “worldly” influences at our beloved churches; stop for a minute and ponder.  There is reason Jesus commanded that we “Love one another”.  Love of G-d and love of our fellow men is the very foundation (I say foundation for those that love vague ambiguous terms) of spirituality and religion. 

Religions that foster love of their neighbor (fellow humans) in their congregations; will grow in numbers.  It should not be surprising that religions that preach mostly Hell fire and damnation will find their congregations dwindling – sooner or later.

I am not saying that truth and correct principles are not important – just that in general, people will seek out friends before truth.  We tend to listen, communicate and change our behaviors because of those we are emotionally attached to in a positive friendly way – even though it is so much more fun to tell others that they are stupid, silly, sick and wrong in their thinking.

 

The Traveler

[omegaseamaster75]

There is a Mega Church in Texas I think lead by Joel Osteen, they meet in the Compact center. Big crowds every week. I don't know if anyone here has listened to a Joel Osteen sermon but I'm a fan.  Super uplifting, Christ centric, just a great motivational speaker.

Being LDS is not easy, 3 hrs of church on Sunday, plus a calling, we covenant to abstain from certain things and for some people that's not easy especially if you're a convert.  We do not have a paid clergy so the talks we get to hear at sacrament are medium at best, on a variety of topics, not all Christ centric like I think they should be. 

At the end of the day most people (80%) want to go to church get preached at, feel good, then go home.  Mega churches make that easy

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

7 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

 We do not have a paid clergy so the talks we get to hear at sacrament are medium at best, on a variety of topics, not all Christ centric like I think they should be. 

When I was going through a difficult period, and really needed church to be more Christ-centered (but as you say it wasn't), I started listening to podcasts from other religions.  I found a Presbyterian minister that really touched my heart with his Christ-centered messages.  I'm still so grateful for him and his podcast.  It really helped me.  

I think every topic we speak about at church can and should be Christ-centered.  Once I was asked to speak on the environment.  Seriously!  I used an analogy about my sons going on missions and how I wanted to find the perfect shoes for them that would last their whole missions.  I couldn't be there with them, but I could do something to make things a bit easier for them.  I compared that to Heavenly Father and Christ sending us here to earth, knowing it would be difficult and challenging, and giving us this beautiful world to make things a bit easier.  Christ is the Creator, and then I talked about how we should treat this gift -- complete with a couple GA quotes....don't ask me what they were though it's been over a year. The point is "all things testify of Christ."  Our talks and lessons should show that, and our love for Him. 

Edited April 14, 2017 by LiterateParakeet

[Guest MormonGator]

38 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Being LDS is not easy, 3 hrs of church on Sunday, plus a calling, we covenant to abstain from certain things and for some people that's not easy especially if you're a convert.  We do not have a paid clergy so the talks we get to hear at sacrament are medium at best, on a variety of topics, not all Christ centric like I think they should be. 

The time commitment is a huge issue. Speaking from personal experience your non member friends where you've been and what's been going on. 

There will never be an honest conversation about why converts leave the church. Lifelong members will view it as an insult to the church and converts who leave will have their opinions as to why they left marginalized. It's partially like why there will never be an honest conversation about race in America. Like a pundit said, African Americans don't want to be labeled as sell outs and whites don't want to be labeled as racist. 

An honest conversation will be virtually impossible. I feel sorry for converts who leave the church, and I feel sorry for lifelong members who do as well. 

Edited April 14, 2017 by MormonGator

[Vort]

51 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

We do not have a paid clergy so the talks we get to hear at sacrament are medium at best, on a variety of topics, not all Christ centric like I think they should be. 

I could hardly agree less. The best Church sermons are life-changing, and not in a Zig Ziglar pump-'em-up kind of way. If you honestly think that Church talks are "medium at best", I feel sorry for you.

[omegaseamaster75]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

I could hardly agree less. The best Church sermons are life-changing, and not in a Zig Ziglar pump-'em-up kind of way. If you honestly think that Church talks are "medium at best", I feel sorry for you.

You are correct in one part of your statement " the best church sermons are life changing" They are just few and well spaced out.  On the whole yes most church talks are medium. This does not mean we/I don't learn from them or are not uplifted because that does happen when someone prayerfully, diligently studies and prepares for their talk (assuming they aren't speaking on building cleanliness) regardless of the delivery you can tell when someone makes an effort and when someone mails it in.

 Thank you for your heartfelt sorrow. 

[zil]

In my experience, my own preparation has a much larger impact on the quality of the talks given in church than does the speaker's preparation.  Which isn't to say I don't recognize that some "speak" better than others, but all the best speaking in the world makes no difference whatsoever if I'm not prepared, and if I'm prepared, I learn even from the worst talks.

[Guest MormonGator]

20 minutes ago, Vort said:

I could hardly agree less. The best Church sermons are life-changing, and not in a Zig Ziglar pump-'em-up kind of way. If you honestly think that Church talks are "medium at best", I feel sorry for you.

 

13 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

You are correct in one part of your statement " the best church sermons are life changing" They are just few and well spaced out.  On the whole yes most church talks are medium. This does not mean we/I don't learn from them or are not uplifted because that does happen when someone prayerfully, diligently studies and prepares for their talk (assuming they aren't speaking on building cleanliness) regardless of the delivery you can tell when someone makes an effort and when someone mails it in.

 Thank you for your heartfelt sorrow. 

 A talk doesn't need to be Churchillian to inspire you, but if I waddle up there and spend twenty minutes talking about my cat it isn't exactly a spiritual moment. 

[Traveler]

@Vort, @omegaseamaster75@zil and @MormonGator  and others

The most life changing talk (sermons) are those you prepare and give yourself.   Imagine how your life would change if today you received a call from President Monson asking you to speak at general conference in October.  If you were given a scripture reference for a topic – then you would learn what it really means to study and ponder scripture.  You would also learn how to prepare for general conference.  You might even gain new insights into fasting and prayer.

 

The Traveler

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, Traveler said:

@Vort, @omegaseamaster75@zil and @MormonGator  and others

The most life changing talk (sermons) are those you prepare and give yourself.   Imagine how your life would change if today you received a call from President Monson asking you to speak at general conference in October.  If you were given a scripture reference for a topic – then you would learn what it really means to study and ponder scripture.  You would also learn how to prepare for general conference.  You might even gain new insights into fasting and prayer.

 

The Traveler

Oh I agree with you and @zil. Your own preparation certainly mattes, for sure. If you walk into church with a scowl on your face looking for problems (like how @Vort lives his daily life) you won't find anything inspirational. 

@Vort-Just teasing my friend.

[zil]

13 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

 A talk doesn't need to be Churchillian to inspire you, but if I waddle up there and spend twenty minutes talking about my cat it isn't exactly a spiritual moment. 

I reckon that depends on what exactly you say about this cat.

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, zil said:

I reckon that depends on what exactly you say about this cat.

For the record, I hate cats. Dogs rule. 

[zil]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

For the record, I hate cats. Dogs rule. 

Note to self: Remove all cats from the compound.  Assign Gator to deal with the resulting mouse infestation.

[mordorbund]

2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

For the record, I hate cats. Dogs rule. 

Now THAT inspires me!

[Guest MormonGator]

33 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

Now THAT inspires me!

I don't really hate cats, I'm just way more of a dog guy. Bull Terriers rule. 

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, zil said:

Note to self: Remove all cats from the compound.  Assign Gator to deal with the resulting mouse infestation.

You are on fire today @zil. LOL. 

Cool story-My Jaina (my dog, English Bull Terrier) loves cats. In fact, she loves them so much that she can't even be around them. She'll love them to death. Get the picture? 

[NightSG]

6 hours ago, Vort said:

I could hardly agree less. The best Church sermons are life-changing, and not in a Zig Ziglar pump-'em-up kind of way.

No, more in a "benefits of a 45 minute nap on Sunday morning" kind of way.

Maybe it would help if they weren't all recycled Conference talks.  They might have been life changing the first time, but the 4th time it's just droning.

7 hours ago, Traveler said:

It may be a surprise to many because they assume religion attracts mostly those looking for spirituality and connection to G-d but the reality is that empirical worldly connections come first.  Before we wonder too much over “worldly” influences at our beloved churches; stop for a minute and ponder.  There is reason Jesus commanded that we “Love one another”.  Love of G-d and love of our fellow men is the very foundation (I say foundation for those that love vague ambiguous terms) of spirituality and religion. 

And when they don't see that in Church, they start wondering why all those people around them aren't following Christ's message.  If they find another church where it's practiced better, they're gone.

All in all, it's like going to a prestigious school only to find out that a significant number of the long time students are illiterate and can't count past ten with their shoes on; no matter how many times someone parrots the "but it's the one true school" rhetoric, you're going to "know them by their fruits" and look elsewhere for your education.

[eddified]

On 4/13/2017 at 2:30 PM, Zarahemla said:

I would never leave. I'd feel naked and empty and hopeless without the church and plan of salvation and I'd literally feel naked without my garments. 

 

14 hours ago, Mormonheart said:

Never say never, bro!

I read a book written by a Navy Seal. He described the tough training they went through. (Turns out, Navy Seal training is so physically demanding, that it is not uncommon for them to die during it.) There is a period of time when the Seals-in-training had to do physically demanding drills for 24 hours (or maybe it was even longer) -- no sleep at all. So here they are, holding logs over their head and marching with it, or rolling around in the wet sand on the beach and then jogging for miles in wet boots, etc.... all without sleep. Anyway, they have a bell. Trainees can ring the bell at *any* time. Ringing the bell means they give up. Once someone rings that bell, they go back to their previous non-Seal unit, but they've given up on ever becoming a Navy Seal. Bell-ringers bring disgrace upon themselves by quitting. (They are not disgraced in their professional life, I think -- they're only disgraced among the Navy Seals). 

Well, the person writing the book went through the training and became a Navy Seal -- he did not ring the bell. He says that he just knew that he would never, ever ring the bell. He had made up his mind, so he wasn't tempted. So he never did.

Why can't we have this attitude towards quitting the church? My wife's mother-in-law is having a faith crisis and my wife was wondering about the issues that my mother-in-law brought up about the church. I told my wife the story of the Navy Seals and the bell, and told her that I would never, ever leave the church. I've made up my mind. I simply won't do it. I've never been tempted to stop attending church -- my mind is made up. I've been around a few blocks, read some anti-Mormon literature, and that stuff has no appeal to me. I've "heard it all", so to speak. Still not tempted to leave the church. Sure, I will have trials. I've had some tough ones, like everybody does. But can't I make up my mind now that I will never leave the church? That's what we've been told to do regarding imbibing alcohol -- just make up your mind never to partake. 

Respectfully,

-Eddified

Edited April 14, 2017 by eddified

[eddified]

To answer the original question, I thought that the main thing that causes new converts to stop going to church soon after joining it, is the social aspect. That is, they don't feel like they belong, socially speaking. They haven't made any friends, so when they attend church, they feel out of place. They don't feel like they fit in. I always believed this was the biggest reason that new converts stop going to church.

It would be interesting to get some hard data on their reasons for leaving.

[The Folk Prophet]

59 minutes ago, eddified said:

 

I read a book written by a Navy Seal. He described the tough training they went through. (Turns out, Navy Seal training is so physically demanding, that it is not uncommon for them to die during it.) There is a period of time when the Seals-in-training had to do physically demanding drills for 24 hours (or maybe it was even longer) -- no sleep at all. So here they are, holding logs over their head and marching with it, or rolling around in the wet sand on the beach and then jogging for miles in wet boots, etc.... all without sleep. Anyway, they have a bell. Trainees can ring the bell at *any* time. Ringing the bell means they give up. Once someone rings that bell, they go back to their previous non-Seal unit, but they've given up on ever becoming a Navy Seal. Bell-ringers bring disgrace upon themselves by quitting. (They are not disgraced in their professional life, I think -- they're only disgraced among the Navy Seals). 

Well, the person writing the book went through the training and became a Navy Seal -- he did not ring the bell. He says that he just knew that he would never, ever ring the bell. He had made up his mind, so he wasn't tempted. So he never did.

Why can't we have this attitude towards quitting the church? My wife's mother-in-law is having a faith crisis and my wife was wondering about the issues that my mother-in-law brought up about the church. I told my wife the story of the Navy Seals and the bell, and told her that I would never, ever leave the church. I've made up my mind. I simply won't do it. I've never been tempted to stop attending church -- my mind is made up. I've been around a few blocks, read some anti-Mormon literature, and that stuff has no appeal to me. I've "heard it all", so to speak. Still not tempted to leave the church. Sure, I will have trials. I've had some tough ones, like everybody does. But can't I make up my mind now that I will never leave the church? That's what we've been told to do regarding imbibing alcohol -- just make up your mind never to partake. 

Respectfully,

-Eddified

I respect this opinion, and do think that sheer determination and commitment are important. They are key to faith. However, if you or anyone makes the choice to wade deeply enough into sin then, eventually, you would leave the church.

Edited April 14, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[eddified]

18 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I respect this opinion, and do think that sheer determination and commitment are important. They are key to faith. However, if you or anyone makes the choice to wade deeply enough into sin then, eventually, you would leave the church.

Absolutely. Continually repenting and improving my character are part and parcel of my determination. 

[prisonchaplain]

23 hours ago, person0 said:

I would have to admit though, I could never leave the Church unless I was completely convinced that it wasn't true.  Even if I were convinced it wasn't true, I would then have to be convinced that Christianity in general was not true before I would leave.  This is because, regardless of what people say about us, based on my personal research and studies, if you look at the actual doctrines that mainstream Christianity requires one to believe in order to be saved in heaven, Latter-Day Saints fit the bill.  If the Church isn't true, but Christ is, I still have no reason to go anywhere else, although I may not participate to the same extent.  If I were to decide that the Church wasn't true, then since the Book of Mormon is so clearly scriptural in nature when compared to the Bible, it could lead me to decide at some point that Christianity in general were not true, and if that happened, I would then become agnostic.  So as much as I agree a heaven centered approach would still be best upon leaving, it just couldn't happen for me the way my mind works (of course, I'm not new though).

Side Anecdote:  I once submitted a question to a popular mainstream Christian organization/website to ask them if failure to believe in the doctrine of trinity would bar someone from entering into heaven so long as they maintained their faith in Christ as Savior, and as the only way to be saved.  After much back and forth where they tried to convince me of the doctrine, and I pointed out why I didn't feel that the many scriptures they used would necessarily establish it, they said the following:

When I read that from them I literally did this: !!!!!  Followed by: .

I leave the admissions department completely in the LORD's hands. It is unlikely that the thief on the cross could have passed a very detailed doctrine test. Nevertheless, doctrine is important, and the more we are given the more we are accountable. This is why sites like this do so well, and why I'm pleased to be associated with it, as the resident outsider.  IMHO LDS spirituality is a high-cost, high-benefit expression of faith. I get why many find great encouragement and support from it.  :-)

[SilentOne]

9 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I think every topic we speak about at church can and should be Christ-centered.  Once I was asked to speak on the environment.  Seriously!  I used an analogy about my sons going on missions and how I wanted to find the perfect shoes for them that would last their whole missions.  I couldn't be there with them, but I could do something to make things a bit easier for them.  I compared that to Heavenly Father and Christ sending us here to earth, knowing it would be difficult and challenging, and giving us this beautiful world to make things a bit easier.  Christ is the Creator, and then I talked about how we should treat this gift -- complete with a couple GA quotes....don't ask me what they were though it's been over a year. The point is "all things testify of Christ."  Our talks and lessons should show that, and our love for Him.

This.

And as for the "I will never leave the church" vs. "Never say never" thing, I've thought about that before. Mainly about how I feel that I would never leave, but then I thought about how people who have left probably thought the same thing. It troubled me. But I read or remembered things leaders were supposed to have said about not worrying about people who read their scriptures and sincerely pray daily falling away and I decided that I could control. So my decision not to ring the bell, as it were, was my decision to never neglect my personal prayers and scripture study.

[eddified]

Yes the key point is that we have agency. As such, we are the captains of our own spiritual destiny. 

[An Investigator]

19 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

A study funded by the LDS Church found that most individuals join (or return to) a church for fellowship and friend connections.  In contrast, most individuals leaving a church do so because they have not made friendship connections.

It may be a surprise to many because they assume religion attracts mostly those looking for spirituality and connection to G-d but the reality is that empirical worldly connections come first.  Before we wonder too much over “worldly” influences at our beloved churches; stop for a minute and ponder.  There is reason Jesus commanded that we “Love one another”.  Love of G-d and love of our fellow men is the very foundation (I say foundation for those that love vague ambiguous terms) of spirituality and religion. 

Religions that foster love of their neighbor (fellow humans) in their congregations; will grow in numbers.  It should not be surprising that religions that preach mostly Hell fire and damnation will find their congregations dwindling – sooner or later.

I am not saying that truth and correct principles are not important – just that in general, people will seek out friends before truth.  We tend to listen, communicate and change our behaviors because of those we are emotionally attached to in a positive friendly way – even though it is so much more fun to tell others that they are stupid, silly, sick and wrong in their thinking.

 

The Traveler

 

11 hours ago, eddified said:

To answer the original question, I thought that the main thing that causes new converts to stop going to church soon after joining it, is the social aspect. That is, they don't feel like they belong, socially speaking. They haven't made any friends, so when they attend church, they feel out of place. They don't feel like they fit in. I always believed this was the biggest reason that new converts stop going to church.

It would be interesting to get some hard data on their reasons for leaving.

Oh this has really surprised me...but I investigated for ages before I joined so when I did Join the church I already knew everyone and I knew what was expected of me.  Catholics have to attend Church for a year before they can become Catholics,  do you think maybe we would have less growth but more committed converts if we adopted this approach?